Who is right about the British economy?

by witchfinder Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:15 am

First topic message reminder :

As Lloyd Grossman would say "lets look at the evidence"

26th January 2010 - this was the date that the UK recession was finaly over, our growth returned back into the black again at 0.1% later revised upwards to 0.4%.

This was also a news story back in January 2010
--------------------------------------------------------

The begining of 2010 has seen some improvement in the uk housing market. People's confidence seems to have returned to pre uk recession levels.(Zoopla.co.uk)

In the second quarter of 2010 the economy of the United Kingdom was growing at 1.2%, the fastest rate of growth for nine years.

By July the new coalition government had been in power for a couple of months, the chancellor gave his first budget and the nation was put on alert for the waves of spending cuts and redundancies which were to follow soon.

Towards the end of 2010 UK growth began to go backwards again, and actualy went back into negative growth in the 4th quarter, perilously close to recession again.

So here we are in October 2011, 19 months after this government entered office and our growth figures are lower than what they were when they came to office in May 2010.

But not only is growth stagnant, unemployment is higher, inflation is higher, confidence is lower, no sign of a recovery in the housing market, and the promise that the private sector can take up the slack of the thousands made redundant hasent happened.

As we approach the 18 month mark, is time begining to run out for David Cameron and George Osborne. ?

by astra Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:28 pm

I have NO wish to tell Cam----- Ca (spit) HIM how to do his job as he is obviously doing it so well, but, if he were to tell the unions that he is reversing the Brown TAX on pension companies, and that money MUST go back to account holders, as opposed to Bonuses for Actuaries CEO's, dinner ladies and shareholders, he just may get the unions to react like they have been kicked in the old proverbial shadow chancellors! (Balls, get it??)

YET???

by oftenwrong Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:36 pm

The Bookies are probably taking bets on which Opposition spokesperson will be the first to say to The Chancellor in Parliament, "It's hurting, but it isn't working."

by atv Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:21 pm

by Ivan on Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:41 am
Extracts from an article by Michael Dugher MP:-

"The Tories blamed the impact of the previous global economic crisis – the collapse in tax revenues that followed the banking crash – on the last Labour government.

It is true to say that the severity of the banking crisis has forced a deficit on the government. However, those who say the baking crisis caused the recession need to answer this point. The banking crisis requiring bail outs was September and October in 2008. The recession in the UK started in the spring of 2008. It was major policy failures lasting from the autumn of 2007 until the end of 2008 that caused the recession. The policy failures causing the recession led to the banking crisis, which exacerbated the recession.
Gordon Brown was running large deficit budgets in a boom, from 2003 to 2009, of up to roughly £40 bn. But, because the economy was growing, the debt, as a proportion to GDP, wasn’t going up.
But the real problem was that this deficit would have been far higher, were it not for temporary tax revenues from a bubble that has since burst. So, effectively, there was a far larger deficit lurking beneath the surface.
To be fair to Gordon Brown, only a few commentators were warning that he was relying on temporary revenues from a bubble. But he was warned about the £40 bn deficit. And if he had raised taxes sufficiently to cover that deficit, the structural deficit we’re facing now would only be two thirds of the size.

by **Ivan** Sun Nov 27, 2011 1:36 pm

atv. Why then, until 2008, did Cameron and Osborne promise to match Labour's spending plans if they came to power?

by bobby Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:07 pm

atv wrote

" Why should my pension be taxed to pay for the short fall in public pensions?"

The simple answer must be,

"You are all in this together", sound familiar does it, and we all know what cretin said it.

by atv Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:54 pm

Ivan wrote:atv. Why then, until 2008, did Cameron and Osborne promise to match Labour's spending plans if they came to power?

In 2007 both parties shared the same rosy growth expectations, and differed only on the question of how to divide the medium term spoils between tax cuts and public spending.
In fact, George Osborne unexpectedly inherited an economy ruined by the great global contraction which started in 2008. When he became Chancellor the British economy had shrunk by 5.5% from its pre-recession peak, and the budget deficit had risen from 2.5% of GDP to 10%, the second being a counterpart of the first. But it also soon became conventional to say that the Labour government’s revenue projections had been based on quite unrealistic growth expectations, and that therefore the ‘structural deficit’ – that bit of the deficit not due to the downturn – was nearer 8% than 2.5%. There is a lot of truth in this. But, pre-crash, the Conservatives did not challenge Labour’s revenue estimates. Osborne and Alastair Darling were equally fooled by the brittle buoyancy of the British economy.
Robert Skidelsky
The Guardian | Friday, June 24, 2011

by atv Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:01 pm

bobby2 wrote: "You are all in this together", sound familiar does it, and we all know what cretin said it.

Yes we are all in this together, and that includes the public sector.

But its nothing new, the last government raided pension funds over 10 years ago , and where was the strikes and mass protests then? and that money, our pension money, was used to fund the massive bloating of the public sector...so not only did they rob our pensions to provide their jobs for the last 10 years, they now expect us to retire into poverty so they can have a far better pension than many in the private could ever dream of.

And they've got the nerve to try and hold the country to ransom because they're not getting the moon handed to them on a stick.

by bobby Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:59 pm

"aint life a bitch"

by **Ivan** Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:04 pm

The last government didn't "raid" any pension funds, it didn't "steal" any money which had already been accumulated. The last government completed the abolition of the dividend tax credit, something which Norman Lamont had already reduced in 1993, yet Tories with a selective memory always fail to remember that.

And what did Thatcher do for the state retirement pension? As Peter Lilley later told us, it was her intention that it should "wither on the vine".

And what has Osborne done for pensions? He changed the inflation index used for calculating pension increases from RPI to CPI, as it’s usually the lower figure. As to Wednesday's dispute, this government has "raided" - yes "stolen" - £3.7 billion from public sector pension provision as part of its programme of spending cuts, even though the average public sector pension is only £5,600 per annum.

Osborne is happy to take from pensioners, but what would he like to do for all those directors averaging 49% pay increases this year? He wants to cut their top rate of Income Tax from 50% to 40%. Then he has the nerve to tell us that “we’re all in this together”.

Apart from the government bullying ("go on strike or the offer will be withdrawn"), perhaps the most nauseating aspect of the whole dispute is multimillionaire and expenses cheat Francis Maude telling potential strikers that they've been offered a good deal. Would he like to try living on £5,600? I doubt if that would even pay for his caviar and champagne, or that of the nineteen other millionaires in the government. Still, have no fear, history is repeating itself and this will all end for the Tories as it did before - remember May 1997?

by **Phil Hornby** Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:16 pm

The worry for any administration which succeeds Cameron will be the problems they will 'inherit from the previous government', and which custom now requires they must drone on about interminably.

Sauce for the goose... Very Happy

by atv Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:25 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:The worry for any administration which succeeds Cameron will be the problems they will 'inherit from the previous government', and which custom now requires they must drone on about interminably.

Sauce for the goose...

It is standard politics for all governments to always blame the previous administration for its problems. We all recall hearing Labour ministers blaming the previous Conservative administration well into their second term in government.
If it was acceptable for Labour to be blaming the Torys following 6+ years of Labour government, why is it wrong for the Torys to be blaming their predecessors after a comparatively short period of time in power?

by **Phil Hornby** Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:42 pm

Quote : " We all recall hearing Labour ministers blaming the previous Conservative administration well into their second term in government."

Well, at least all of those who choose to 'remember' things that they find it convenient to assert... Shocked

by oftenwrong Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:30 pm

There is no legal mechanism for any existing member Country of the Eurozone to abandon the Euro as its currency, nor for the other countries to expel a member from the monetary union.
However any Country is free to withdraw from the EU.
A wry article in today's Sunday Times suggests that the Scandinavian Countries will break away and form their own economic group if (when) everything goes pear-shaped, The United Kingdom will join a united Ireland in forming a Free-trade Area, and the rump of European countries will revive the Habsburg Empire, based on Vienna.

by witchfinder Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:07 pm

Several independent annalysts are forecasting that George Osborne will have to make an extra 100,000 public sector job cuts in order to meet the governments own defecit reduction target, a spokesman for Ernst & Young said today (Sunday) that this weeks economic assesment and autumn statement by the chancellor will paint a gloomy picture with yet another downgrading of growth forecasts.

The economic research team "The Item Club" sponsored by Ernst & Young said that due to the worsening economic outlook, the 400,000 public sector jobs set to go before 2015 will most likely now have to be 500,000.

I think the Conservatives are running out of excuses, and the idea that "Its all Labours fault" is now begining to ware a little bit thin, especialy when you consider that Britain is now in a worse position than it was 18 months ago.

by oftenwrong Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:34 pm

There have recently been so many trails of amendments to Osborne's Plan "A" to make things easier for us, that either he will have nothing left to say on Tuesday, or what he DOES propose will be absolutely revolutionary.

by oftenwrong Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:41 pm

Seems that Gideon does not have a Master Plan, and things will get worse before they get better.
The Governor of the Bank of England is changing his trousers at ever-increasing intervals, but neither does he have any answers except to mutter about low bank-rate and delayed bonusses.

If none of the clever people have a clue, what are we paying them for?

by Stox 16 Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:19 am

The economic outlook gets worse by the week as Gideon cannot face up to economic reality and hides behind the Euro-zone crisis and praying for some Christmas magic to help him out. While borrowing is out of control and £75 billion more quantitative easing from a man who said. Q.E was the last resort of desperate government in only 2009 only to end up begging the Bank of England to do some more quantitative easing in 2011. while unemployment reaches a 17 year high with 129,000 more joining Gideon's army in the biggest increase since July 2009. it was Gideon who blamed the failing economy on the snow to start with. in fact he has blamed everything other than himself. odd that. NOT

Between July and September there were 5.7 people chasing every vacancy in the land (OBR Figures) with the OBR forecasting growth for this year at just 1% for 2011 After downgrading its growth forecasts for the 5th time this years alone. They were joined by the OECD and IMF who both downgrading its forecasts for Q1 & Q2 in 2012 to blow 0% growth and 1% growth. while inflation has hit over 5% in 2011 and KPMG showing the first drop in personal spending power since the dark days of the Thatcher slump in the 1980s. with shop workers starting to join Gideon's Army of unemployed.

in the last 18 months the UK has seen a £65 billion-growth gap with the banal governments austerity programme that has resulted in an extra £123 billion public borrowing by 2015. after £85 billion of spending cuts and an extra £29 billion in TAX Rises that they hope will cut the deficit by only £56 billion. While many within the City believing that even this figure is very over optimistic due to falling growth, lower tax receipts and rising unemployment and higher welfare spending on the governments increases in public sector, youth and female unemployment as they grow there unemployment deficit.

What did the CBI say. Despite a 25% depreciation in the pound since 2007, the study found that exports did not provide a boost to UK growth in 2010 and said the government should aim to rectify this by raising the share of exports in gross domestic product from 29% to 36% by 2016. The government, which is under pressure to produce a Plan B to boost the economy consultants Ernst & Young, the employers' organisation said today that ministers should set out a clear strategy to raise the share of exports in national output over the coming years. Did not know the CBI was a left wing group now. as they do not think its working either.

What did the Organisation for Economic Development and Cooperation (OECD) say. is predicting that the economy will shrink, the Government was warned on Thursday. forecasts suggest that growth would be negative during the first six months of next year due to the euro crisis.
The prediction, to be published on Monday, is the first from a respected forecaster to indicate that Britain faces a double-dip recession. OECD advised the Treasury that it may have to draw up a so-called “Plan B” to slow public spending cuts God they have gone Left wing as well now.

What about the IMF? What did they say? The UK growth forecast for 2011 has also been revised downwards, from 1.5% to 1.1%, while the forecast for 2012 was cut to from 2.3% to 1.6%.

"It would be wise for both governments and businesses [in the UK] to develop contingency plans in case such a double dip scenario does emerge," said John Hawksworth, PwC's chief economist. Did Gideon take this up? No he sat on his hands once more

What's left of the so-called plan A. boils down to a simple precept: that public spending cuts would be offset by private sector jobs. but bluntly this has not happened nor was it ever likely to happen after Gideon killed the little bit of growth he did have with putting VAT up. (what a whizkid he is ha ha )

Three months to June shows that 111,000 jobs were shed by the public sector and only 41,000 were created in the private sector. (OBR Figures) while mortgage debt rising and now accounting for £21,000 per person in the UK. (HBC) and leaving the worst economic squeeze on living standards for 90 years.

Economic desperation and all sorts of kite flying has replaced and real fiscal policy this weekend. while the banal government try to paint and even worse picture of the economy this weekend, so they can try and make its sound a little better come Tuesday. in what they must be calling operation hoodwink. Bambi Clegg has been saying to the press that Gideon has fulfilled his pledge to him, to increase the bank taxes next year. However, Gideon's first levy on bank profits in June 2010 budget. told us all that it was due to raise£8.3 billion over four years. its is currently set at an annual tax of 0.075% on the value of all the debt of UK banks. (Thank God for Gideon on banking tax ha ha)

I am sure we will here about UK bond levels for the UK. Well its only taken him two years to get UK bond levels back to the 2009 levels. just never thought I would see Tories posting that about how happy they are that 10 year bond rates are lower. so its GGREAT NEWS AS WE CAN BORROW MORE AT A CHEAP RATE. Quite amazing. just goes to show how there economic aspiration for the UK economy has fallen too an all time low. in just two years in office. WHAT A MASTERPIECE OF MAGICAL ECONOMIC NONSENSE. euphoria of a doomed party. sums them up very well indeed.

Is this really an economic plan? or is this just an economic nonsense of sitting on your hands and hope it all come good in the end?

by oftenwrong Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:32 am

Unless there is a series of small miracles, the British economy will not have improved sufficiently to introduce a "feel-good" factor prior to the next General Election, so voters will be choosing between the useless and the hopefuls.

by Stox 16 Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:40 am

oftenwrong wrote:Unless there is a series of small miracles, the British economy will not have improved sufficiently to introduce a "feel-good" factor prior to the next General Election, so voters will be choosing between the useless and the hopefuls.

i am sad to say i agree with you. I cannot see that an economic policy that is based on just austerity and cut can lead to any real economic growth. The real question is how will people feel as they see there living standards fall to a 90 year low while fighting off rising costs of living with incomes set too rise between 1% to 3% with unemployment hanging over there heads? the trouble is this government does nothing to help while adding to both its borrowing and public sector cuts. had we not gone about this like a bull in a china shop we could of managed our economy out of this. ask this question. what is the rush for? is it to bring down our debt or was it about getting this government re-elected?

But was this statement right below?

n fact in 1919 the national debt stood at 135% of UK GDP (Lord Skidelsky former Tory spokesman on the Economy in the Lords) he goes on to say, The truth is that its not the fear of government bankruptcy but governments determination to balance the books which lowers business confidence, by reducing expectations of employment, incomes, and orders. is he right?

by oftenwrong Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:38 am

The really worrying element is not something which can easily be remedied, and that is human fallibility. The people we elect to govern us are just like ourselves, prone to the occasional self-doubt, with the usual blind-spots and gaps in experience or education.

Only a tiny minority actually serve the public, no matter what they all SAY, because once in the job most of their efforts are directed towards keeping it.

by Stox 16 Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:46 am

oftenwrong wrote:The really worrying element is not something which can easily be remedied, and that is human fallibility. The people we elect to govern us are just like ourselves, prone to the occasional self-doubt, with the usual blind-spots and gaps in experience or education.

Only a tiny minority actually serve the public, no matter what they all SAY, because once in the job most of their efforts are directed towards keeping it.

Yes the whole thing is very worrying indeed. but even more so after having two whole years of Government with on fiscal economic policy for growth. its also very worrying that we have a totally unbalanced economy while trying to re-live the failed economic policy of the 1980 as our only way out of it. as it did not work last time, so you can bet your last pound on it not working in 2011 either.

by **Ivan** Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:47 pm

Extracts from an article by Gregg McClymont and Ben Jackson:-

"Conservative-led governments define economic crises as caused by excessive government spending rather than lost output and low growth….coalition politics insulate the Conservative Party from the accusation that their economic policies are unfair or sectional, and allow them to dress up damaging policies as national imperatives.

This political strategy explains the government's failure to contemplate a more flexible macroeconomic approach in 2011. A carefully targeted, short-term stimulus plan, such as Labour's five-point ‘plan for jobs and growth’ or Barack Obama's American Jobs Act, is needed to stabilise the economy in the face of renewed global uncertainty. But party interest is preventing Osborne from adopting a plan for jobs and growth: this would undermine the Conservatives' central political claim that the only measure of governing competence is willingness to implement deep and immediate spending cuts.

Labour can mount an electoral appeal based on increasing private-sector growth and improving living standards for the majority, rather than a simple defence of public spending. This would force the Conservative Party away from talking only about cutting public spending and on to the terrain of explaining how growth is to be delivered.

A patriotic appeal for national growth could highlight the divisiveness and inefficiency of Conservative political economy. Labour succeeds when it convinces the electorate it can deliver efficiency and social justice via successful economic modernisation – in the interests of the many, not the few. With the many likely to have seen little improvement in their living standards by 2015, Labour has that opportunity."

For the full article and reader comments:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/28/labour-avoid-tory-trap-growth

by Stox 16 Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:58 am

Ivan wrote:Extracts from an article by Gregg McClymont and Ben Jackson:-

"Conservative-led governments define economic crises as caused by excessive government spending rather than lost output and low growth….coalition politics insulate the Conservative Party from the accusation that their economic policies are unfair or sectional, and allow them to dress up damaging policies as national imperatives.

This political strategy explains the government's failure to contemplate a more flexible macroeconomic approach in 2011. A carefully targeted, short-term stimulus plan, such as Labour's five-point ‘plan for jobs and growth’ or Barack Obama's American Jobs Act, is needed to stabilise the economy in the face of renewed global uncertainty. But party interest is preventing Osborne from adopting a plan for jobs and growth: this would undermine the Conservatives' central political claim that the only measure of governing competence is willingness to implement deep and immediate spending cuts.

Labour can mount an electoral appeal based on increasing private-sector growth and improving living standards for the majority, rather than a simple defence of public spending. This would force the Conservative Party away from talking only about cutting public spending and on to the terrain of explaining how growth is to be delivered.

A patriotic appeal for national growth could highlight the divisiveness and inefficiency of Conservative political economy. Labour succeeds when it convinces the electorate it can deliver efficiency and social justice via successful economic modernisation – in the interests of the many, not the few. With the many likely to have seen little improvement in their living standards by 2015, Labour has that opportunity."

For the full article and reader comments:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/28/labour-avoid-tory-trap-growth

A very fair summary in my view Ivan.

by Stox 16 Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:01 am

Phil Hornby wrote:Quote : " We all recall hearing Labour ministers blaming the previous Conservative administration well into their second term in government."

Well, at least all of those who choose to 'remember' things that they find it convenient to assert...

How very true. as you only need to look at the Tory Party economic failures over the last 30 years to see this.

by Stox 16 Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:08 am

witchfinder wrote:Several independent annalysts are forecasting that George Osborne will have to make an extra 100,000 public sector job cuts in order to meet the governments own defecit reduction target, a spokesman for Ernst & Young said today (Sunday) that this weeks economic assesment and autumn statement by the chancellor will paint a gloomy picture with yet another downgrading of growth forecasts.

The economic research team "The Item Club" sponsored by Ernst & Young said that due to the worsening economic outlook, the 400,000 public sector jobs set to go before 2015 will most likely now have to be 500,000.

I think the Conservatives are running out of excuses, and the idea that "Its all Labours fault" is now begining to ware a little bit thin, especialy when you consider that Britain is now in a worse position than it was 18 months ago.

How very true witchfinder. as so far there excuses have been everything from snow to the Labour Party too the Euro. when the facts are its there policies of the last 30 years that have come home too roost.

by Stox 16 Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:59 am

What will happen to our economic status after our "dear coalition" have finished playing with it when the next general election comes along?

as I can see us in a great deal of trouble after 5 years of this coalition. what do you think it will look like?

by oftenwrong Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:18 am

The events of 2008 have made Economists of us all.
Everyone now has an opinion about which Country will be the first to drop out of the Eurozone, and what effect that may have on the UK.

If the Tory-led coalition is hoping for a "feel-good factor" to assist them in an Election, they may be disappointed.

by **Ivan** Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:27 pm

Extracts from an article by Polly Toynbee:-

The failure of Osborne's economic policy has been faster and more embarrassingly transparent than many expected. Osborne's vision of public spending as a thorny thicket choking off private sector growth has been exposed in textbook fashion, just as Keynes proved back in the 1930s. Public investment was the seedcorn not the briar, and "crowding out" joins the litter of failed economic theories. Labour's warning of "too far, too fast" has proved right. As bank reform and financial regulation is now kicked into 2019, "rebalancing the economy" is all mouth and no trousers – a phrase, not a deed. The sinking construction industry points out that Osborne's recent £5 billion "boost" to infrastructure is a fraction of the 30% already cut from it, while 2011 saw even fewer houses built.

The cuts will bleed harder this year: each job loss is a family tragedy, full of bitter personal humiliation as well as hardship. Some 1,829 people a day are losing their jobs, not numbers but people – and the pace is accelerating. Incomes will fall yet again this year: a 7% drop, the sharpest in 35 years, says the Institute for Fiscal Studies. The real value of minimum wage incomes has fallen furthest, says the Resolution Foundation. The silent exodus from homes and schools has begun, as tomorrow's housing benefit cuts already start to drive families out of privately rented homes: Barking reports 140 new families arriving last month, including 70 uprooted child protection cases, and with thousands more expected.

For the full article:-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/dec/30/cameron-brutal-cuts-bleed?commentpage=1#end-of-comments

by oftenwrong Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:50 pm

Many of the problems facing a Chancellor are similar to the ones which Businessmen deal with every day. Balancing the Nation's books is not much different, in kind, to choosing a strategy for profit.

Differing strategies can be tried out in a business. An existing way of doing things can be called "Champion" while an untried proposal can be run alongside it either actually or notionally, labelled "Challenger". After a reasonable trial it can be demonstrated whether the Champion continues to reign supreme, or has been unhorsed by the Challenger.

It is painfully evident that Gideon's slash-and-burn "Champion" desperately needs a sensible challenge from somewhere.

by Stox 16 Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:52 am

oftenwrong wrote:Many of the problems facing a Chancellor are similar to the ones which Businessmen deal with every day. Balancing the Nation's books is not much different, in kind, to choosing a strategy for profit.

Differing strategies can be tried out in a business. An existing way of doing things can be called "Champion" while an untried proposal can be run alongside it either actually or notionally, labelled "Challenger". After a reasonable trial it can be demonstrated whether the Champion continues to reign supreme, or has been unhorsed by the Challenger.

It is painfully evident that Gideon's slash-and-burn "Champion" desperately needs a sensible challenge from somewhere.

All Gideon is doing is borrowing more and hopping that something happens. yet after two whole years he still does not have a fiscal policy at all. we have see all this slash and burn with public sector job cuts back in the 1980s. the plain truth is it did not work for Thatcher so Cameron and Gideon have no hope at all that this will work.

by Stox 16 Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:59 am

So the Chairmen of the Treasury Select Committee as called the Tory lead coalition government economic policy for growth, incoherent, Inconsistent and piecemeal policies that need radical improvement. as he savaged the big Society and localism that in his view seem irrelevant to the task
The Guardian

summed it up quite nicely I think

by sickchip Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:18 am

Don't blame the tories! Blame the british public!

by **Ivan** Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:35 pm

There is an alternative: The case against cuts in public spending

"From 1918 to 1961 the UK national debt was over 100% of GDP. During that period the government introduced the welfare state, the NHS, state pensions, comprehensive education, built millions of council houses, and nationalised a range of industries. The public sector grew and there was economic growth.

Today, the coalition government wants to turn back the clock. It is set on dismantling the NHS and comprehensive education, and it is attacking the welfare state. It is not doing this because the country is on the verge of economic collapse, it is doing it because it is ideologically opposed to public services and the welfare state, and committed to handing over more of our public assets to big business.

Cutting public sector jobs will increase unemployment. This would mean increased costs for government in benefit payments and lost tax revenue. If people’s incomes are taken away or cut through pay freezes they will spend less. Less consumer spending means cuts in the private sector, and lower VAT revenues."

For the full article:-
http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/campaigns/campaign-resources/there-is-an-alternative-the-case-against-cuts-in-public-spending.cfm

by Stox 16 Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:26 am

Ivan wrote:There is an alternative: The case against cuts in public spending

"From 1918 to 1961 the UK national debt was over 100% of GDP. During that period the government introduced the welfare state, the NHS, state pensions, comprehensive education, built millions of council houses, and nationalised a range of industries. The public sector grew and there was economic growth.

Today, the coalition government wants to turn back the clock. It is set on dismantling the NHS and comprehensive education, and it is attacking the welfare state. It is not doing this because the country is on the verge of economic collapse, it is doing it because it is ideologically opposed to public services and the welfare state, and committed to handing over more of our public assets to big business.

Cutting public sector jobs will increase unemployment. This would mean increased costs for government in benefit payments and lost tax revenue. If people’s incomes are taken away or cut through pay freezes they will spend less. Less consumer spending means cuts in the private sector, and lower VAT revenues."

For the full article:-
http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/campaigns/campaign-resources/there-is-an-alternative-the-case-against-cuts-in-public-spending.cfm

I cannot disagree with any of that Ivan

by witchfinder Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:55 am

"the problems we now face in Britain are as a result of the Eurozone crisis"

This will be the excuse, this will be the equivelant of leaves or snow on the railway line, the extra bank holiday, the unusualy cold weather or that the figures dont reflect the wider picture.

GERMANY 04.01.2012 Unemployment has fallen to its lowest level since records began after the reunification of the country in 1989, as Britains unemployment soars, Germany piled on another 22,000 jobs in December.

Only Spain, Greece and Ireland are significantly below the UK in the league table for growth, Germany has leapt way ahead of us and is now virtualy in a different league.

But this has only happened since 2010, indeed after the end of the recession in the UK our growth began accelerating and unemployment began falling, our unemployment rate at the end of the recession was lower than that of Germany - does anyone have any idea what happened. ?

by bobby Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Unfortunately we have a Tory led Coalition Government, that will not listen or care about the plight of the unemployed, the homeless or the sick and dissabled. In fact I honestly believe they do not give a damn about the Nation as a whole, just so long as their niches are protected I.e. the banking and other finance sectors. As I said before they care not a jot for manufacturing as all that will do is to put money into the pockets of the undeserving and ungrateful working classes.

The problems are yet to be realised, although we can already see mass unemployment rising, hospital waiting lists getting longer, homelessness and bankruptcies on a monumental scale with many more to come. Much worse is over the horizon, and this Tory led scumbag Government will not waste a minute more than is necessary to get their evil plans into fruition, then at some time prior to the next General Election the phucking Lib-Dem shits will cry, it wasn’t us, it was those terrible Tory’s wot made us do it, and will then want to do a deal with Labour. My hope is that Labour will not touch them with a bargepole and let them slide of into oblivion, where they belong.
The only good thing is that if the Lib-Dems pull the plug sooner rather than later, we will be rid of the Bastard Herr Cameron and his Rhumba of Rattlesnakes.

by Stox 16 Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:04 am

bobby wrote:Unfortunately we have a Tory led Coalition Government, that will not listen or care about the plight of the unemployed, the homeless or the sick and dissabled. In fact I honestly believe they do not give a damn about the Nation as a whole, just so long as their niches are protected I.e. the banking and other finance sectors. As I said before they care not a jot for manufacturing as all that will do is to put money into the pockets of the undeserving and ungrateful working classes.

The problems are yet to be realised, although we can already see mass unemployment rising, hospital waiting lists getting longer, homelessness and bankruptcies on a monumental scale with many more to come. Much worse is over the horizon, and this Tory led scumbag Government will not waste a minute more than is necessary to get their evil plans into fruition, then at some time prior to the next General Election the phucking Lib-Dem shits will cry, it wasn’t us, it was those terrible Tory’s wot made us do it, and will then want to do a deal with Labour. My hope is that Labour will not touch them with a bargepole and let them slide of into oblivion, where they belong.
The only good thing is that if the Lib-Dems pull the plug sooner rather than later, we will be rid of the Bastard Herr Cameron and his Rhumba of Rattlesnakes.

i Think this is a very fair summary Bobby. I sometimes do wonder why they ever seek power to only then sit on there hands and not running the economy. what a waste of time. no they will never care about manufacturing or the old and sick that are poor. but as you rightly say scumbags

by **Ivan** Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:06 pm

Time to debunk another Tory myth.

Extracts from an article by Seamus Milne:-

A common British establishment view – and the implicit position of ‘The Iron Lady’ movie – is that while Thatcher took harsh measures and "went too far", it was necessary medicine to restore the sick economy of the 1970s to healthy growth.

It did nothing of the sort. Average growth in the Thatcherite 80s, at 2.4%, was exactly the same as in the sick 70s – and considerably lower than during the corporatist 60s. Her government's savage deflation destroyed a fifth of Britain's industrial base in two years, hollowed out manufacturing, and delivered a "productivity miracle" that never was, and we're living with the consequences today.

What she did succeed in doing was to restore class privilege, boosting profitability while slashing employees' share of national income from 65% to 53% through her assault on unions. Britain faced a structural crisis in the 1970s, but there were multiple routes out of it. Thatcher imposed a neoliberal model now seen to have failed across the world.

It's hardly surprising that some might want to put a benign gloss on Thatcher's record when another Tory-led government is forcing through Thatcher-like policies – and riots, mounting unemployment and swingeing benefits cuts echo her years in power. The rehabilitation isn't so much about then as now, which is one reason it can't go unchallenged. Thatcher wasn't a "great leader".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/04/margaret-thatcher-state-funeral-protests

by Stox 16 Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:40 am

Ivan wrote:Time to debunk another Tory myth.

Extracts from an article by Seamus Milne:-

A common British establishment view – and the implicit position of ‘The Iron Lady’ movie – is that while Thatcher took harsh measures and "went too far", it was necessary medicine to restore the sick economy of the 1970s to healthy growth.

It did nothing of the sort. Average growth in the Thatcherite 80s, at 2.4%, was exactly the same as in the sick 70s – and considerably lower than during the corporatist 60s. Her government's savage deflation destroyed a fifth of Britain's industrial base in two years, hollowed out manufacturing, and delivered a "productivity miracle" that never was, and we're living with the consequences today.

What she did succeed in doing was to restore class privilege, boosting profitability while slashing employees' share of national income from 65% to 53% through her assault on unions. Britain faced a structural crisis in the 1970s, but there were multiple routes out of it. Thatcher imposed a neoliberal model now seen to have failed across the world.

It's hardly surprising that some might want to put a benign gloss on Thatcher's record when another Tory-led government is forcing through Thatcher-like policies – and riots, mounting unemployment and swingeing benefits cuts echo her years in power. The rehabilitation isn't so much about then as now, which is one reason it can't go unchallenged. Thatcher wasn't a "great leader".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/04/margaret-thatcher-state-funeral-protests

You know I read that today even before coming on here. its just amazing to read it even if I did live her time in office. you just would have to be off your head to sit and watch 2hrs reliving her nightmare once more.

by witchfinder Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:06 pm

Its always nice when major economies in the west see eye to eye on major issues, and its especialy good when two great nations have leaders singing from the same political or economic hymn sheet.

The present relationship between the United States and the UK is as warm as ever, but there is a fly in the ointment, Mr Obama and Mr Cameron may be good friends, but they are directly at odds and opposed to each other when it comes to the economy or economics.

Its a fact that Mr Obama has more in common with Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and David Miliband than he does with David Cameron or Georgie Porgie.

The UK economy saw unemployment rise yet again in December
The US economy saw unemployment fall in December from 8.7% to 8.5%

In December the US economy saw an increase of 28,000 jobs in manufacturing, 23,000 in retail and 23,000 in healthcare, whilst government jobs saw no change.

In the UK car sales fell by over 4% in 2011, house prices fell, profitability of British manufacturers fell to a record low in the 3rd quarter of 2011, denting any hopes of an economic revival.

Come back Alistair, all is forgiven

by oftenwrong Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:22 pm

According to today's Sunday Times the growth industry is Training.
Companies with government contracts to show the unemployed how to get a job are among the Nation's top earners.

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