Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

by ROB Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Shirina wrote:
Humans are easily fooled.

Perhaps that’s why atheism is growing in spite of its illogicalness.

To prove that an omniscient being does not exist, one must be an omniscient being. Only God can prove God’s existence, and only God can prove God’s nonexistence; thus, if God’s nonexistence is ever proven, God will have proven God’s own nonexistence.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:13 pm

I made no such statement. My original statement was that it was not possible to sustain the quote that most wars were created by religion in history. And whether you like that or not is irrevelant. It is a fact.

Read it and weep ...again, , your straw man argument has nothing to do with MY ORIGINAL STATEMENT WHICH YOU REFUTED.

Neither Stalin nor Pol Pot killed millions because of their religious beliefs, they may have murdered a few thousand for being theists.

Compare this to the death toll in all the religious wars throughout history, and there is simply no comparison, especially if one takes the available killing technology into consideration.

Now please retract your lie that I claimed most wars were created by religion in history forthwith.

My claim is self evident, religious wackos have killed more people over religion than atheist wackos, please confirm by return I am correct, you are wrong and you are an April fool for telling blatant lies to extract your foot from your mouth.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:17 pm

Anyone who suggest there has been no religious conflict involving deaths is talking utter guff, and to suggest all conflicts were over land and resources is yet another disgusting lie.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:27 pm

I better call up the Jesus freaks and let them know that no Christians were persecuted for their beliefs, the pagans and Muslims just wanted to steal their sandals and donkeys.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:28 pm

There is one death that had nothing to do with religion but everything to do with political sedition, yep....you guessed it.

Jesus was not a victim of religious persecution.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:30 pm

Maybe religious wars only exist if the victims are Christians, now there is a novel thought.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:39 pm

Religion was used to persuade good people to do bad things, this suggests their scriptures can be interpreted to justify atrocities, but seemingly this is not the fault of the scriptures.

I am sick to the back teeth of religious vermin cherry picking only the good bits from their scriptures and ignoring the damage caused by the bad bits.

If you crazy bastards only practised the good bits then there would have been no religious wars or wars justified by religion.

Stinking disease.

by oftenwrong Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:52 pm

Perhaps the 16th.C Conquistadores therefore fall into a specific category all their own in sailing to America with the specific motive of plunder. Their cover-story involved taking lots of priests with them, to convert the heathen Maya and Inca into good little Catholics. The main purpose was to seize as much gold as possible and return to Spain with it, which they did successfully for almost a hundred years until they had saturated the European market with a precious metal which had by then become almost commonplace.

They had good PR, and the systematic robbery was always presented as converting the heathen to Christianity. The beneficiaries chose not to question that too closely, so although perhaps a Religious struggle, it was never called a War, unlike the Crusades - which headed in another direction.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:02 pm

I do not consider the plunder of the Americas to be a religious conflict, even the Crusades had commercial motives, but it is ludicrous to claim that the millions of people killed throughout history on the grounds of blasphemy, apostasy, witchcraft and heresy compares to the few thousand killed by 20 th century atheists for being theists.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:10 pm

The witch trials in the early modern period were a period of witch hunts between the 15th and 18th centuries,[1] when across early modern Europe[2] and to some extent in the European colonies in North America, there was a widespread hysteria that malevolent Satanic witches were operating as an organized threat to Christendom. Those accused of witchcraft were portrayed as being worshippers of the Devil, who engaged in such acts as malevolent sorcery, and orgies at meetings known as Witches' Sabbaths. Many people were subsequently accused of being witches, and were put on trial for the crime, with varying punishments being applicable in different regions and at different times. While early trials fall still within the Late Medieval period, the peak of the witch hunt was during the period of the European wars of religion, peaking between about 1580 and 1630. Over the entire duration of the phenomenon of some three centuries, an estimated total of 40,000 to 100,000 people were executed.

I need go no further.

by Guest Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:45 pm

[Wikipedia’s Terms of Use, effective 25 May 2012, states “You are free to: Read and Print our articles and other media free of charge. Share and Reuse our articles and other media under free and open licenses. Full texts of Terms of Use available below.]
__________________________________________________________________________________________

Nelson Mandela
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Personal details

Born
Rolihlahla Mandela
18 July 1918 (age 94)
Mvezo, South Africa

Religion
Christianity (Methodism)

Both his parents were illiterate, but being a devout Christian, his mother sent him to a local Methodist school when he was about seven. Baptised a Methodist, Mandela was given the English forename of "Nelson" by his teacher.^[11]

As Mandela attended church services every Sunday with his guardians, Christianity became a significant part of his life.^[15] He attended a Methodist mission school located next to the palace, studying English, Xhosa, history and geography.^[16]

A member of the Students Christian Association, he gave Bible classes in the local community^[30]…

Staying with a cousin in George Goch Township, Mandela was introduced to the realtor and ANC activist Walter Sisulu, who secured him a job as an articled clerk at law firm Witkin, Sidelsky and Edelman, run by a liberal Jew, Lazar Sidelsky, who took a keen interest in the education of indigenous Africans.^[37]

Attending Christian Sunday services, Mandela talked with the prison imam and studied Islam.^[127]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

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● Read and Print our articles and other media free of charge.
● Share and Reuse our articles and other media under free and open licenses.

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by Guest Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:47 pm

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela has been the cornerstone to peaceful transition from apartheid to freedom and democracy in the Republic of South Africa. Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela is a Christian.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:49 pm

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela has been the cornerstone to peaceful transition from apartheid to freedom and democracy in the Republic of South Africa. Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela is a Christian.

So was Hitler....next ?

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:04 pm

If believers do good things then its caused by religion, but if they do bad things then its nothing to do with their beliefs.

I am going to rename the religious apologists " cherry pickers ".

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:06 pm

Nelson Mandela was a terrorist and murderer of innocent humans, despite his Christianity.

Nelson went underground. He created the MK, which was the military portion of the ANC. Nelson arranged military training in Algeria for the MK members. He launched a sabotage campaign.

While Nelson was in prison he was offered freedom if he would stop his violent actions. He refused this offer.

by jackthelad Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:16 pm

Melson Mandela fought to free black Africans from oppression, black Africans were Christians, and so was there white oppressors.
Adolf Hitler was a white Christian oppressor too, anybody that wasn't white blonde haired, blue eyed was classed has inferior, really I doubt religion ever came into it, with the Jews it was just an excuse to releave the of their money and property. Mind you, I didn't understand the blonde hair bit, Hitler had black hair with an horrible little black moustache. All he want was a pure German race.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:33 pm

Mandela killed innocent Christians and Hitler killed innocent Jews, both were Christians.

Jesus fought to free the Jews from oppression, he did not use violence or promote violence to achieve his goal.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:38 pm

Although Jesus did threaten supernatural genocide, so even he wasn't perfect.

by Shirina Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:14 pm

Religion had little to do with the 'reason' for war.

I think Tosh pretty much nailed it when he commented on "cherry picking." I've met very few (if any) Christians - or believers of any kind - who didn't indulge in cherry picking. If the Bible is to be believed at all, then God himself killed more people than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and every other human mass murderer in the history of Mankind combined. Each and every one of those deaths - every ... single ... one ... was for religious reasons.

Incidentally, the Vietnam war was one of the few wars that did not involve a heavy dose of religiosity. Many men were drafted, all of them were paid, and all of them would be committing treason if they refused to fight. And still, there were many instances of draft dodging, men fleeing to Canada, men trying to obtain a "consciencious objector" status to avoid combat, and men doing numerous other things that would allow them to legally meet the criterion for being exempt from the draft. In fact, the Vietnam War fueled an entire counter-culture in America that did not happen with the Iraq War - because the soldiers in Iraq were infused with heavy doses of religiosity from their chaplains and priests-for-hire. I know this first hand as my "uncle-in-law" is a major and Methodist chaplain in the US Army and has spoken of it at length.

Religion may not be the over-arcing reason for the war, but religion often inspires the common man to fight.

With the ancient Middle East religions mainly having the same gods/goddesses (though different names for different nations) it was hardly likely that fighting against your own 'God' was motivation.

The Shi'as and the Sunnis blow each other to smithereens, fighting over whether or not Muhammad has a successor. That is a religious reason. Christians would be doing the same if a large enough segment of the Christian population believed Christ had an heir. Wahhabis fight to return all Arab lands to the earliest sources of the Quran and the Hadith. They fight for religious reasons.

In addition, Catholics and Protestants have been fighting over the supremacy of their individual religious beliefs for centuries - and yet, both sides worship the same God, so whether it is "hardly likely" or not, religious divisions do, in fact, cause people to fight each other even when they believe in the same God. How to worship is just as divisive as who or what to worship.

It could even be argued that the Jewish invasion of the Promised Land in the O.T. was not for religious purposes

What provided the impetus for the Jews to invade the Promised Land? Oh yeah ... it was because God said the land belonged to the Jews. That's why it was called the Promised Land. That same line is still used today. If you ask any "Jew on the street" as to why Israel should occupy the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, or any land considered Palestinian, they'll tell you straight away - because God promised the Jews that land, not something like, "Israel claims that land through right of conquest" or "My Prime Minister said to take it over, so we took it over."

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:18 pm

I want to be a Christian and all I need is a little bit of evidence to believe the following claims.

The universe was created by a sentient being.

The same sentient being spoke to Moses through a burning bush.

Jesus was born of a virgin.

Jesus performed miracles.

Jesus died and came back to life.

Its not too much to ask.

by boatlady Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:05 pm

So, I guess what people are saying, is that, while religion is often the PRETE XT for war, it is very less often the CAUSE of war? sunny

by snowyflake Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:09 pm

My post regarding 'ancient history' was intended for Snowflake

trevor, we may not know what ancient wars were caused by religion but we do know that anything since recorded history that religion is the major cause of war and that the death toll is greater from religious wars and the fallout from religious wars (disease, famine, starvation, displaced persons) than anything else on the planet.

If you have evidence to the contrary please, we would be happy to see it.

by Guest Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:33 pm

Shirina wrote:
I've met very few (if any) Christians - or believers of any kind - who didn't indulge in cherry picking.

RockOnBrother, Friday, 29 March 2013, 18:16

RockOnBrother wrote:
Then your quote, “of the people, by the people, for the people”, reproduced here with the aforementioned correction in progression of the propositions “of”, “by”, and “for”, is irrelevant, as can be seen below.
Shirina wrote:
Wrong.
Only if you are cherry picking from Lincoln’s remarks at Gettysburg from which you quoted “of the people, by the people for the people.” If you wish to cherry pick, please state that you are cherry picking rather than saying “Wrong.”
Shirina wrote:
… The preamble of the US Constitution begins with "We the people ..."
You in fact did not quote from the preamble; you in fact did quote from Lincoln’s remarks at Gettysburg.
Shirina wrote:
… while I may have taken the quote from the Declaration of Independence…
You in fact did not quote from the Declaration of Independence; you in fact did quote from Lincoln’s remarks at Gettysburg.
Shirina wrote:
… the CONCEPT of which I speak is reiterated in the Constitution's preamble…
The concept of which you speak and the words which you quote are from Lincoln’s remarks at Gettysburg.
Shirina wrote:
Thus, your "under God" premise…
The words “under God” are from Lincoln’s remarks at Gettysburg, from the same sentence…

“It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”

… from which you quoted “of the people, by the people, for the people”, the same sentence in which the phrase “this nation, under God” precedes the phrase from which you quoted by nine words.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:39 pm

So, I guess what people are saying, is that, while religion is often the PRETE XT for war, it is very less often the CAUSE of war? sunny

Religion has caused approx 7% of all wars, that is a lot of dead bodies, and countless other wars could not have been justified without a religious pretext.

If it swims like a fish.....

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:00 pm

Texas,

YOU DO CHERRY PICK AND BY GOD YOU NIT PICK, YOUR OBSESSION WITH THE MINUTIAE IS NOT SCHOLARLY, ITS A DEFECT.

Your argument has been clearly proven to be defective, your version of Christianity is good because you cherry pick the good bits, and nit pick the bad bits, its just intellectually dishonest.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:23 pm

I notice fundamentalists think in very black and white terms, everything is by the book as they say, they like their concepts simple, they seem to find complexity just too damn messy or taxing.

They need the assurance of being right, and shades of grey muddy the waters and dilutes their righteousness.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:32 pm

The Jewish scriptures promote the concepts of an eye for an eye - free will and the NT promotes compassion-products of environment.

Maybe our well being lies somewhere in cherry picking the reasonable bits.

by polyglide Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:00 pm

Religion does not cause wars, man causes wars, irrespective of all other considerations there would be no wars if man did not start them.

by polyglide Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:14 pm

As usual and as I have said on previous occasions Shirina goes into a load of nonsense when attempting to prove another wrong.

What on earth has a person changing their cloths got to do with any theory?

Or a motor car breaking down etc;

You do not need a theory to know when a car is broken down, it is self evident and when a person changes their cloths it is just an occurance and needs no theory as they are both facts.

An idea may produce investigation that ultimately has results but the initial idea may be completely wrong just as a theory may do the same but the original theory or idea in it's originaql form is wrong and irrefutably so.

by Tosh Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:45 pm

Religion does not cause wars, man causes wars, irrespective of all other considerations there would be no wars if man did not start them.

We have established that religion is one of the many causes of war, and they are started by religious men following their religious instructions.

by polyglide Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:50 pm

Yes, men.

by Tosh Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:54 pm

An idea may produce investigation that ultimately has results but the initial idea may be completely wrong just as a theory may do the same but the original theory or idea in it's original form is wrong and irrefutably so.

If you have any evidence that contradicts common ancestry or an alternative explanation that fits the evidence, then go and collect your Nobel prize.

If not, go sell your snake oil somewhere else because I aint buying it.

by polyglide Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:01 pm

Yor intelligence obviously falls far short of that which enables you to buy it.

by Tosh Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:19 pm

Yor intelligence obviously falls far short of that which enables you to buy it.

SO....no Nobel prize for you then, now that is a surprise.

by Shirina Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:23 pm

Yes, men.

Well of course men start wars, polyglide. The idea here is WHY men start wars. You won't get away with strawman arguments on my watch.

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:12 am

I am telling you, creationists just think funny, its a reasoning deficiency born out of pure cognitive bias.

by polyglide Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:29 am

Men start wars because they can.

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:34 am

Men start wars because they can.

Religious men start religious wars because their religion says they can.

by polyglide Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:43 am

They do not have to.

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:47 am

They do not have to.

Are you suggesting men should ignore God ?

by polyglide Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:53 am

They should use God's bidding in the intended manner, if all followed his teaching there would be no need for any kind of unpleasantness.

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:18 am

They should use God's bidding in the intended manner, if all followed his teaching there would be no need for any kind of unpleasantness.

God bids unpleasantness and they follow his teachings, ever read the bible ?

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