Evidence for the existence of God (Part 2)

by ROB Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Shirina wrote:
Humans are easily fooled.

Perhaps that’s why atheism is growing in spite of its illogicalness.

To prove that an omniscient being does not exist, one must be an omniscient being. Only God can prove God’s existence, and only God can prove God’s nonexistence; thus, if God’s nonexistence is ever proven, God will have proven God’s own nonexistence.

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:18 am

They should use God's bidding in the intended manner, if all followed his teaching there would be no need for any kind of unpleasantness.

God bids unpleasantness and they follow his teachings, ever read the bible ?

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:42 pm

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you. Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes” (Deuteronomy 20:10-17

"I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" (Gospel of Matthew 10:34).

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:21 pm

The plain reality is humans do good and bad things for many reasons, and all permutations are possible, few humans are good or bad all of the time.

I personally take a lot of what Jesus said with a pinch of salt, although if you live every day as if it was your last then you are tasting his apocalyptic wisdom. Most people given little time to live waste it on superficial concepts but instead strip their lives of all its distractions and enjoy their simple relationship with life and loved ones.

by snowyflake Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:04 pm

Religion does not cause wars, man causes wars, irrespective of all other considerations there would be no wars if man did not start them.

Belonging to a religion is like being a Hell's Angel or some other member of a motorcycle gang or a street gang. People identify themselves by their religion, their club, their gang. And if anyone dares to disrespect them there will be hell to pay. Look at the Middle East and Northern Ireland and Burma and India and Pakistan and Sudan and the former Yugoslavia and tell me if I'm wrong about this mentality. Watch the mental muslims throw a paddy every time someone dares to draw a picture of Mohammad.

And any member of a gang is duty bound to protect their gang from outsiders and those that don't toe the gang line. Conflict is automatic. Different beliefs stir up conflict and then people believe they have a god-given right to murder each other.

Madness.

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:03 pm

[quote="snowyflake.

And any member of a gang is duty bound to protect their gang from outsiders and those that don't toe the gang line. Conflict is automatic. Different beliefs stir up conflict and then people believe they have a god-given right to murder each other.

Madness.

[/quote]

Could that also describe the various God-threads?

by Tosh Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:53 pm

Could that also describe the various God-threads?

A gang of threads ???? ..... mmmm,......nope, it couldn't, but it could describe a bunch of left wing nodding donkeys patting each other on the back on a daily basis.

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:27 pm

Horses for Courses, and Courses for Horses, Tosh.

by polyglide Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:36 am

Every kind of activity be it good, bad or indifferent has been as a result of mankinnd making choices, he was not made to do anything.

What is always missing in the athiests points oif view is the Satanic factor.

You can have a person building a wall and every time it nears completion an idiot knocks it down.

Exactly the same is going on in the world today in respect of religion, no account is taken of the part Satan is taking.

God has given Satan the chance to turn everyone against him, we do not know the terms on which this is based, he could have given Satan the opportunity to create and in doing so give the athiests a little ammunition on which to base idiotic ideas of evolution, being involved in creation.

It is the creation of all living things that is the core of all that matters.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:46 am

What is always missing in the athiests points oif view is the Satanic factor.

Its not missing with me, I have it toward you.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:36 pm

God has given Satan the chance to turn everyone against him, we do not know the terms on which this is based, he could have given Satan the opportunity to create and in doing so give the athiests a little ammunition on which to base idiotic ideas of evolution, being involved in creation.

Yep, Satan is sprinkling transitional fossils just to eff with our brains.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:08 pm

I believe fundamentalism both in Islam and Christianity will drive the " undecided " away from religion, they are making faith appear foolish, and nobody wants to appear foolish.

Look how hard Texas tries to intellectually legitimize his beliefs, he has to resort to some of the most bizarre tactics I have ever encountered and he still comes across as deranged.

I have nothing to say to those who believe God directs our lives, they do not affect my life, but wacko fundamentalists are dangerous people spreading dangerous ideas, ideas that do affect my liberty.

by Guest Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:50 pm

by snowyflake Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:55 pm

What is always missing in the athiests points oif view is the Satanic factor.

Have you got evidence for Satan's existence? Atheists do not believe invisible, superheroes exist. Satan has no more influence over humans than any of the gods/God do. They're not real. They are imagination designed to cope with death and grief.

Really, you have to ask yourself what is the worst thing that can happen to you if you didn't believe in God's existence? Would you start sleeping around, taking drugs, binge drinking, murdering, stealing, cheating, lying? No, you probably wouldn't. You and most believers would still be the decent, moral human beings you are now. So why do you clutter up your perfectly good brain with utter nonsense and spend your time trying to convince yourself and others that he is real.

Believers are brainwashed.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:44 pm

Have you got evidence for Satan's existence?

Do you mean S*t*n ?

by Shirina Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:15 pm

What is always missing in the athiests points oif view is the Satanic factor.

The Satanic factor? Does Simon Cowell judge that show, too?

Yes, atheists do not include the so-called "Satan factor" because we don't believe Satan exists, either. Why the hell (pun intended) would atheists include Satan's influence when we don't believe in Satan?

The entire God vs. Satan claptrap is just a reinvention of people personifying the ancient battle between good and evil. That's all it is - anthropomorphizing a concept.

no account is taken of the part Satan is taking.

Because he isn't taking part. Neither is God. As you, yourself said in your post - it's all about the choices humans make. Supernatural battles between gods and demons have NO bearing on the world.

At all.

God has given Satan the chance to turn everyone against him

And that, to you, is what a loving god would do? It's like inviting a pedophile over to your house, locking him in the bedroom with your kids, and stepping out. Yeah! Let's see which of my kids gets molested and which do not! What a capital idea!

we do not know the terms on which this is based

Because there are no terms. I would have thought that God would have gotten his jollies letting Satan toy with Job, but apparently not, eh? I guess Job's story was just a field test for the REAL mayhem to follow!

Loving god, my ass.

he could have given Satan the opportunity to create and in doing so give the athiests a little ammunition on which to base idiotic ideas of evolution, being involved in creation.

He could have dressed in a baby doll nighty, danced a jig on the top of the Petronas Towers, and screamed Martian poetry using nothing but the word "meow" for all we know. Yeah, that's the beauty of speculating about speculation.

by oftenwrong Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:18 pm

Satan is kept alive by all Governments, who use variations of "The Bogeyman will get you" to persuade us that paying Taxes for nuclear weapons and standing armies is not an option.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:22 pm

Satan is kept alive by all Governments, who use variations of "The Bogeyman will get you" to persuade us that paying Taxes for nuclear weapons and standing armies is not an option.

You are one of these subversives who wish our Empire ill, we do still have an Empire don't we ?

by snowyflake Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:04 pm

I think OW is kept alive by Satan.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:11 pm

I think OW is kept alive by Satan.

Sort of, he is kept alive by his ego, and his ego is Satan ( pronounced stn in ancient Hebrew).

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:19 pm

I wonder what piece of physical evidence my good friend from Txs anticipates will shatter the implausible-impossible theory of macro-evolution ?

The evidence that shattered the steady state model was not " direct evidence ", Hubble didn't actually observe the universe beginning some 13.8 billion years ago, the Big Bang was inferred from observed evidence, much like macro-evolution.
And yet Txs believes in the Big Bang theory, maybe because it concurs with Genesis1:1, mmm....velly intellesting glasshopper.

I have contacted the global science academy and told them their conclusions are mince and to show me the money, they asked if I came from Texas.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:54 pm

Malcolm X: Jews, Christians and Muslims All Believe in the Same God

Jesus was a pacifist, not sure about Malcom X.

Jesus is God to most Christians, not sure about Jews and Muslims.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:08 am

I assume Texas has his own bespoke version of the Judeo-Christian faith, I can guess if nothing else it will be thorough. He seems to have spent a large portion of his later years scrutinizing every theological and scientific nuance.

And finally he can sit back in comfort KNOWING his belief is true, it is a bullet proof impregnable vest, but he is neither dogmatic nor indoctrinated, he is a scholar who thinks precisely.

No, this is not a comedy strip, its real life, I am chatting to a man in 2013 who actually KNOWS the entire science community is all wrong, evolution, taught in every biology class to schoolkids throughout the world, is.....wait for it......implausible and impossible.

Is it me or is this guy crazy as a bag of snakes ?

Eccentric just does not quite cover it.

by snowyflake Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:13 am

Jesus is God to most Christians, not sure about Jews and Muslims

In order to make Jesus divine, the son of God, the council at Nicea in c. 300 AD decided to invent the trinity that made God/Jesus/Holy Spirit all one and three at the same time. For Jesus to be divine, he had to be born of a virgin (because they made a mistake with the Greek translation for 'maid'), he had to be the son of God and he had to have a resurrection. Mary Magdalen was downgraded from friend/associate/possible partner of Jesus to whore and Judas Asparagus was downgraded from trusted friend to betrayer. This was all decided at a committee meeting so that priests could tell illiterate people what they should believe.

There isn't anyone on the planet that can tell me that the bible is the inspired word of God when committees can argue for and against what God meant and perpetuate their own verision of church doctrine for millennia. It's ludicrous in the extreme.

by snowyflake Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:21 am

Evidence-based science versus mythological legends.....gee....which one to pick.....tapping my nails........ok ok.....it's not that hard....if it looks like a potato, feels, smells and tastes like a potato...my guess is it's a potato.......

Unless of course it was a created potato that bears no resemblance to it's ancestors no matter what the fossil potato record shows or the DNA record shows or the geological layers where fossilised potatoes are known to be found.

So, my question is....if I'm holding a potato and all the evidence suggests that it is a potato, do I still need to use cautionary language because there is the remotest possibility that this potato in my hand is actually a giraffe?

I would like to know under what scientific circumstances this might occur?

by Jsmythe Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:35 am

Ah you see my friends,it may just be,that you are looking at this from the incorrect angle!

Satan is an anagram of the real name which indicates a known character. Yes we know there is Santa and he wears red,but what about Stana or Anats or perhaps Staan?

I have absolutely NO idea who or what Stana, Anats or Staan could mean but its and idea and it is the thought that counts!

Embarassed

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:48 am

What are they really saying when they deny common ancestry or macro-evolution ?

If 5 million species did not evolve from one ancestor then the only other option is from 5 million ancestors, and where did they come from ?

A species has to come from somewhere ?

So we either have 5 million species being dropped off by aliens or .......mmm......oh yes, Genesis.

So lets cut the bullshit, when a creationist rejects evolution they are not suggesting aliens implanted 5 million species, nope they are in effect choosing to believe in Genesis, its a straight choice and this choice is not immune to cognitive bias. So no more of the pseudo science pretext, its just plain old delusion.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:02 am

I have encountered about a dozen creationists on the internet, mostly American and most are not shy of their beliefs, in fact its the opposite, they proudly shout their beliefs with the certainty of a fanatic.

Intelligent people keep their stupid thoughts to themselves, they do this because they are intelligent and they know from experience how stupid thoughts are perceived.

So why do creationists not keep quiet about their stupid thoughts, why all the freakin noise, they might as well dress up as clowns, its just incredible in the 21 st century they believe this shit and their confidence is quite scary, something seriously going wrong in their head.

by Guest Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:18 am

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:32 am

Americans like to be individualistic and have a culture of individualism, individuality is a form of uniqueness, they like to be unique as Americans. They do not want to be seen or feel like a colony of other peoples ideas, they invented their own cultural concepts and these concepts are part of being a unique American.

Creationism and Intelligent Design is their unique Christianity, it is the American version of Christianity, its almost a form of nationalism.

American culture doesn't like imposed change, and they don't like to take advice or compromise, they are the greatest country in the world, they lead and ignore the rest of the world, they know what's true.

Ergo American creationism is who they are, its everything to them.

by snowyflake Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:02 am

I am on the planet. I can and do tell you that the Hebrew and Greek Bibles is/are God’s Word.

Do you have a video documenting God actually inspiring this Word?

by tlttf Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:18 am

roc, nobody is doubting your on the planet, the problem people are working with is which?

by snowyflake Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:32 am

The council of which you speak had no ability to alter texts from which modern translations are derived because they had neither knowledge of nor access to these texts.

What does this mean? The council was formed to debate the issues of interpretation of the biblical texts, which they had knowledge and access to, and what would be accepted as church doctrine. The Greek language being somewhat difficult to always interpret when many words in these texts had many meanings and could be interpreted differently.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:15 am

The council of which you speak had no ability to alter texts from which modern translations are derived because they had neither knowledge of nor access to these texts.

Mark originally ended at 16:8, we know this because we found the earliest manuscripts and they all ended at 16:8, there is some debate whether the ending was added in the 2nd century or 5 th, but it was added nevertheless.

This is just one of many examples of texts being altered to suit the evolving theology of Christianity, anyone who believes the KJV is the inerrant word of God or an accurate account of history is simply denying the evidence. No one can doubt Tyndale's exquisite use of the English Language but that does not make it historically true, few consider Shakespeare recorded history.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:29 am

The council of which you speak had no ability to alter texts from which modern translations are derived because they had neither knowledge of nor access to these texts. “Trinity” is not found in either Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic in either Bible.

You are correct in saying the trinity is nowhere to be found in the original Greek texts as Erasmus found out much to everyone's annoyance, however there is no debate amongst historians or independent scholars that much of the 27 books in the NT were " extrapolated and altered ".

Historians only consider 7 of the 13 epistles were definitely penned by Paul, 3 were definitely not and there is dubiety concerning the remaining 3.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:33 am

I am on the planet. I can and do tell you that the Hebrew and Greek Bibles is/are God’s Word.

You also tell us common ancestry is implausible, a view shared by few on this planet, you seem to have a very poor strike rate for a precise thinker.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:44 am

One of the outcomes of the Protestant Reformation was it opened the flood gates for thousands of different interpretations of the NT. Fundamentalists viewed these interpretations with as much skepticism as Catholic doctrine, and found a rather quirky solution known as biblical literalism, it removed all the mess and debate.

So now we have a bunch of nutters running around America insisting the NT is inerrant, idiots handling snakes and speaking in tongues because of mistranslations to the original text, you gotta laugh at these misfits.

by oftenwrong Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:54 am

In relation to the girth of a typical Holy Bible publication, a booklet containing "All the sayings of Jesus" might be rather slim, since most of the Bible stories are by other people describing what He said or did.

SILENCE: A Christian History
by Diarmaid MacCulloch
Allen Lane £20 pp. 340

by snowyflake Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:58 am

In relation to the girth of a typical Holy Bible publication, a booklet containing "All the sayings of Jesus" might be rather slim, since most of the Bible stories are by other people describing what He said or did.

WOW OW! Actual input. I'm so impressed. Smile

The bible is hearsay evidence or downright fabrication. It is not and never has been the word of God. It is the word of human writers thinking they are speaking for the Abrahamic God. Contrary to some believers, who cannot provide videos or other evidence that the bible is actually God's actual words.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:08 am

In relation to the girth of a typical Holy Bible publication, a booklet containing "All the sayings of Jesus" might be rather slim, since most of the Bible stories are by other people describing what He said or did.

ALL of the Bible stories are by other people describing what he said or did, and none of them were eye-witnesses nor contemporaries of Jesus.

The best we can say is he taught his interpretation of the Torah and was executed by the Romans for preaching sedition against Rome, the rest is just hearsay or heresy.

by Tosh Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:58 pm

Funny how all the empirical criteria is suddenly waived when it comes to the veracity of the Bible, evolution is implausible because it has not been directly observed but the Bible is the words of God because it was written a long time ago.

by Guest Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:23 pm

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