Tax avoidance....the great rot?

In the UK and the US new kinds of protest have emerged over the last couple of years, these include so called "flash protests", occupations and sit-ins, a protest today can be organised quickly and easily using modern communications and the computor.

One of the biggest targets has been multi national businesses and big corporations who are accused of avoiding tax, the idea that hospitals, schools and welfare is been cut whilst big business gets away with paying not millions, but BILLIONS of pounds in tax makes many peoples blood boil.

The High Court in India has this week ruled that UK company Vodaphone is not liable to pay £2.8 billion because the Indian assets of China s "Hutchinson Telecom" were registered in the Cayman Islands when Vodaphone purchased them.

Does this mean that if a person from the Cayman Islands sold property that he or she owned in the United Kingdom, they would not have to pay stamp duty or CGT ? - No of course it dosent, it only applies to very big, very wealthy business.

Witchy
        As someone who has his own company and employ some 29 people and who pays my Tax in full each and every year. this drives me so mad its hard to even write about it. This was posted by Posted by Mark Jenner - 25 November 2011 http://www.newstatesman.com. This makes by blood boil too. as all the Tory party cut will only cut our debt by £53 billion based on there own OBR figures. yet In the UK's case £69.9 billion is lost on a yearly basis in what the Tax Justice Network call the "shadow economy."

In March earlier this year The Spectator published an article 'Debunking UK Uncut' over their campaign against tax avoidance. The author -- Nick Hayns from the Institute for Economic Affairs -- pleaded with readers not to let "UK Uncut get away with throwing all logic out of the window." But as nations across Europe feel the sting of reduced living standards, the true extent of global tax avoidance -- as revealed today by the Tax Justice Network -- will act to bolster feelings that such injustice can no longer be swept aside with the kind of insouciance Hayn displays.

The research, based on data from 145 countries, shows that tax evasion costs those nations $3.1 trillion annually. In the UK's case £69.9 billion is lost on a yearly basis in what the Tax Justice Network call the "shadow economy." That figure, they point out, "represents 56% of the country's total healthcare spend."

On the back of this report the Tax Justice Network has launched its campaign to Tackle Tax Havens. An initiative aimed at propelling tax avoidance up the political agenda by highlighting, in simple terms, the sheer scale of the sums involved and how they translate into increased cuts in public services for the rest of us.

But is tax avoidance immoral? Toby Young wrote for The Telegraph back in February that "Tax avoidance isn't morally wrong. It's perfectly sensible behaviour." While it might be true from a purely business point of view that tax avoidance is a great way to boost profits, Young conflates what is logical for a business to do, with what is the right thing to do from a societal or moral point of view.


In response in this article, Chief Executive of Jersey Finance Ltd, Geoff Cook, submitted the following letter:

"Tax evasion" is the illegal concealment of a taxable activity and, to be clear, is a criminal offence in Jersey. "Tax avoidance", on the other hand, is legal and refers to the prudent management of tax affairs to legitimately minimise a company or individual's tax liability within the law. Wide-reaching and thorough regulatory and compliance procedures are fundamental components of how a world-class International Financial Centre (IFC) like Jersey operates.

While the concept of tax avoidance, or perhaps as it may be better described, tax planning, is often discussed in relation to business, the exact same principle applies to individuals from all walks of life. Anyone who chooses to invest in an ISA or a pension could be accused of seeking to "avoid tax"; yet it is plain that such activity is not only legal, but also prudent and sensible.

At £30 billion per year, fraud in the UK is more than twice as high as thought, with tax evasion costing the public purse over £15 billion per year and benefit fraud just over £1 billion.

Based predominantly on 2008 data, the National Fraud Authority’s first ever Annual Fraud Indicator found fraud against the public sector accounts for 58% of the total fraud in the UK per year.

Tax evasion is around 3% of total tax liabilities, while benefit fraud accounts for 0.8% of total benefit expenditure.

In the private sector, the report shows the financial services industry recorded the highest loss to fraudsters, estimated to be £3.8 billion, with £1 billion in mortgage fraud and over £2 billion lost in insurance fraud.
http://citywire.co.uk/money/tax-evasion-costs-treasury-15-times-more-than-benefit-fraud

Tax avoidance is the other side of a coin supporting Welfare Cheats. In both cases the ordinary tax-payer is being taken advantage of.

If people are able to beat the system, then it's The System that needs changing.

oftenwrong wrote:Tax avoidance is the other side of a coin supporting Welfare Cheats. In both cases the ordinary tax-payer is being taken advantage of.

If people are able to beat the system, then it's The System that needs changing.

This is most true the system does need changing. The welfare cheats are quite small fry in this much bigger debate. as the real question is if we as a community agree we wish to have a Tax system that is fair. its not for a small group to then believe they have a right to skip out of paying. as we either wish too have a tax system to met the needs for the many or we do not? The system we have to day states its almost OK if you have the money to get out of paying. This is not open to the majority of us, but is open to the rich and powerful just because they have the money to fight there way out of paying. now that cannot be right or fair on us the majority of us no matter who we are.

The problem is that many of those cheating the system, are the very same ones that dictate policy.
In my mind much lower down the evolutionary scale the vodaphone, at least vodaphone aren't dictating how we should live.

Meanwhile, parliamentary lobbying continues unfettered.

bobby wrote:The problem is that many of those cheating the system, are the very same ones that dictate policy.
In my mind much lower down the evolutionary scale the vodaphone, at least vodaphone aren't dictating how we should live.

Bobby
I have the feeling you are dead right over this. as we would both know this system has always favoured the businesses who live and work within Square mile . they pay our friends in the Tory party very big bucks to keep it that way too.

Rather more noteable is the way prominent American Companies pay very small amounts of tax in the UK in proportion to their Sales here, according to an article in today's Sunday Times..

On Apple's sales here amounting to £6billion, the Treasury received just 0.2% - £10m. Amazon's UK turnover for the past three years was £7.6billion on which they paid no tax in the UK at all. Company accounts show a network of foreign subsidiaries in Ireland and in the British Virgin Islands. Google declares for tax in Ireland, so paid just £1.2m to HMRC last year on sales of £2.2billion. Luxembourg and Switzerland host several prominent companies trading in the UK, notably Boots the Chemists.

If they don't show, what the 'ell are they hiding?

Every Phuk in the land has access to MY tax and details, why should they br any different?

The Torys say "We are all innit together"

So PROVE IT!

Papaumau wrote:
After a row in public between Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone in the race for the next Mayor of London election about how much tax they have each paid and about if they would be prepared to publish their tax returns; they both decided to agree to do this.

I don't think that either of them realised that what they had done there was going to cause an even bigger row in the Houses of Parliament.

Now we are hearing the Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, saying that his senior Tories will publish their tax-returns if the opposition will publish theirs.

When one thinks that there are twenty-two Tory millionaires in the government cabinet I wonder if they will be very pleased about Osborne making this promise.

I am sure that most of us will already know that in America this is done routinely by the top echelons in politics but being the cynical old sod that I am I wonder if these revelations both in Britain and in America will truly tell us what amounts and from where the rich politicians get their money and where it goes in tax - or more correctly - into which tax havens this money goes in order to avoid or to even evade paying tax.

What do you folks think ?

Regards....

Papaumau.

Hi papa
well a most interesting post and topic this is. yes its a good idea to show tax returns in public office. it shows your open. however, as you also rightly point out it will be more than interesting if this happens or not.
i will reply more in full to you soon. as its an interesting subject this one and need more thought on my part ha ha

keep up your postings my friend

All they will do, is to put any other interests they may have in to their partners names, just as the weasle Phillip Hammond admitted to doing, then his partner transfered their company to an offshore tax haven, without extensive examination will remain invisible to the rest of us. It doesn't matter a jot what Herr Cameron and his Rhumba of rattlesnakes say, they will do as they like, because we will be blind to most of their goings on.

Thanks Stox 16 for your kind words !

Yes, I have always believed that the people who act for us in government should ensure that their record is transparent for all to see as if they are able to hide the fiddles that many super-rich people get up to they should not be representing us at all.

The politicos are always harping on about honesty and transparency and yet they are not so keen to illustrate that they are being either honest or transparent in their political machinations.

Regards..

Papa.....

Papaumau wrote:

Thanks Stox 16 for your kind words !

Yes, I have always believed that the people who act for us in government should ensure that their record is transparent for all to see as if they are able to hide the fiddles that many super-rich people get up to they should not be representing us at all.

The politicos are always harping on about honesty and transparency and yet they are not so keen to illustrate that they are being either honest or transparent in their political machinations.

Regards..

Papa.....

Hiya Papa
you're most Welcome my friend. But there is only one thing we both need to remember and that is NO Tory government will ever closed down of Tax avoidance due to the very fact that most of them do this themselves. its a bit like asking a Fox to look after the chickens Papa. what's more its totally scandalous that this government has already cut the Tax office staff by I believe 5,000 staff and closed tax offices. yet its been shown that money spent of tax collections bring in there own salaries 10 times over. still experience shows us that Tory government only truly believe in a tax policy for the 70% of us. while the other 30% are free to pay there way out of paying tax all together.

I have always believe that its should be the duty of every company or person to pay there tax and this should be stated within the law. in other word tax avoidance should be made illegal and that any company found to be using tax havens for the sole purpose of tax avoidance should be charge with defrauding the crown. I would also made it illegal to fail to register for UK Tax. some as it is in Turkey and many other states around the world. I can also tell you my own company operates in Turkey and is subject to Turkish tax and even I had to register both myself and company. in truth this was no big deal to me or my company. What's more we also paid our Turkish tax bill as well as our UK tax bill. as we cover all of this within our costs. If i was totally truthful too you the UK tax system is the weakest we deal with. Japan, Turkey's and Malta are far more on the ball than ours, its not uncommon to have a visit by the Japanese's taxman in your office at anytime.

Regards

STOX

When a government allows employees working in the public sector to have their wages paid to a private company that they own, then allow them to pay tax as a corporation rather than an individual then you have a problem. Check your local councils and spot the ones that are employed by their own companies. eg; In London we have Ken Livinstone who has just been caught out and there are many more.

tlttf wrote:When a government allows employees working in the public sector to have their wages paid to a private company that they own, then allow them to pay tax as a corporation rather than an individual then you have a problem. Check your local councils and spot the ones that are employed by their own companies. eg; In London we have Ken Livinstone who has just been caught out and there are many more.

Sorry tittf this post is just a right wing Red herring. as most council employees pay P.Y.A.E. nor does any of this having anything to do with Economics or company tax avoidance schemes that they know full well is defrauding us all in the end. if you wish to see you're own tax bill fall then you need to get a real grip on company tax avoidance schemes. its be stated that if you did just this one act your own personal tax bill would fall by a minimum of 10% per year. we lost over £69.9 billion a year in company tax avoidance schemes or 58% of the total heath care budget for 2012. Now you may well personally be happy to pay there short fall each year. but the majority of us are not. but to even compare Ken Livinstone's or Doris Johnson's tax to company tax avoidance schemes is little more than an economic practical joke.

In the UK's case £69.9 billion is lost on a yearly basis in what the Tax Justice Network call the "shadow economy." That figure, they point out, "represents 56% of the country's total healthcare spend." Shifting money oversees and drawing it back is not tax avoidance, but tax evasion. It is designed specifically to avoid paying tax but is against the spirit of the law. Now tittf please remind me and us all how much this crap government say they will cut the national debt by? just in case you have forgot, how does £53 billion over 5 years sound to you? does this figure ring any bells at all? now I do not know about you but that is not even one year of £69.9 billion lost every year is it?

SO IN FIVE YEARS OF THIS GOVERNMENT THEY WILL LOSE A COOL £349.5 BILLION POUND IN COMPANY TAX AVOIDANCE SCHEMES OR IF YOU LIKE £69.9 BILLION PER YEAR. NOW YOUR GOVERNMENT WILL CUT THE NATIONAL DEBT ITS SAYS BY £53. BILLION IN FIVE YEARS. SO PLEASE DO TELL US ALL WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT? WHAT ECONOMICS OR YOU AND THEM ON HERE?

The British way of Taxation has never really survived close examination on the basis of fairness. Whatever the political persuasion of the Government in power at the time, the Wealthy have always been able to choose the cheapest way of paying their tax dues. The principle is enshrined in British folklore as, Don't kill the goose that lays the Golden Eggs.

oftenwrong wrote:The British way of Taxation has never really survived close examination on the basis of fairness. Whatever the political persuasion of the Government in power at the time, the Wealthy have always been able to choose the cheapest way of paying their tax dues. The principle is enshrined in British folklore as, Don't kill the goose that lays the Golden Eggs.

Well the hard economic fact is that today we are going to have to finally address this unhappy subject of tax avoidance. as the bottom line is this, we are asking people to face cut in living standards of some of the poorest people in the land. you cannot justify company tax avoidance schemes that sees £69.9 billion a year walking out the back door while telling people they will have to face personal cuts or unemployment. as it just will not wash any more. but you're quite right in saying the UK taxation does not really survived close examination. but its clear to me that we cannot then stick our head in the sand either.

I guess I should be the one arguing for the currant tax system that is more then happen to see £69.9 billion leave our back door every year. as i run a company myself. but then when I sit down a do all the sums it shows I would be far better off if this crazy system of tax avoidance was to come too any end.

The G7 group of industrialised nations have agreed that there must be collective action against tax evasion and avoidance, the UK's finance minister has said.

Chancellor George Osborne said after the talks that it was "incredibly important" that firms and individuals paid the tax they owed.

Read more on this article HERE

---

The thing is, ( ever the old cynic ). Can we believe what these people, including our illustrious Chancellor, are saying at this G7 summit when we know that many of those that are speaking at this meeting are bankrolled by the exact-same ones that they are attacking as "tax-avoiders and "evaders"

After all, surely it is only human nature that the ones with money might want to hang on to as much of it as they can for as long as they can.

If there is not any specific legislation delivered that might stop this bad habit from happening then surely it is all of the Western and Capitalistic governments that are responsible for allowing this now-common practice to continue to happen.

Anybody ?

Regards....

Papaumau.

Weasel words.

A very balanced view on the reality of tax evasion.

Vodafone's £12bn Tax Avoidance & The Disgusting Truth About The Class War
by Harry Paterson
8 June 2013

While the poor and disabled are tagged as benefit scroungers the big corporations are allowed to carry or regardless...

Politics increasingly throws up bizarre contrasts. Or, as most would correctly see things, breathtaking examples of brazen hypocrisy. In this regard, these past two weeks have been particularly instructive.

On the one hand, the Tories announce a series of measures to deal with the latest spin on the old cash-for-questions scandal by… attacking the Trade Unions’ financial support for Labour.


http://sabotagetimes.com/reportage/vodafones-12bn-tax-avoidance-the-disgusting-truth-about-the-class-war/

A particular kind of Tax Avoidance is enthusiastically supported by the majority of British people - Inheritance Tax. Many people who have "earned" thousands of pounds for no more effort than simply living in their house for several years, want to pass-on that value to their children and grandchildren.

Nothing wrong with that as an ambition, except when those same people require the local Council to provide accommodation for them in a Care Home or similar at Public expense.

Curious how a blind spot often appears when people are asked why they don't just sell their home to meet that expense.

One lady in the '90's told me she didn't want to 'give her house to the government' so in spite of needing a care home placement chose to return to her own home - I guess it's something to do with how these issues are dealt with in the Press.

Personally, when I need full-time care, I'll be happy to sell my house - after all, if I'm in a care home I can't live in it, and it is my main big investment.

Papaumau wrote:-
Chancellor George Osborne said after the talks that it was "incredibly important" that firms and individuals paid the tax they owed.

George Osborne accused of lying to Parliament on his 'hard line' against corporate tax avoiders

From an article by Tom Harper:-

Osborne told MPs in March that HM Revenue and Customs was “collecting twice as much tax as before” through new measures to target super-rich individuals and multinational companies, who employ expensive accountants and lawyers to shelter their vast wealth in overseas tax havens. However, inquiries by ‘The Independent’ and ‘Private Eye’ established that Osborne was not referring to physical money already banked by the state and was only outlining a target of tax collected for this Parliament – one based on a completely different measurement from the previous five-year election cycle. The case was referred to Sir Andrew Dilnot, head of the UK Statistics Authority, who has now concluded that direct comparisons between the figures was “inappropriate”.

Ed Balls commented: “Now that it has been officially confirmed that the chancellor used incorrect figures in his Budget speech, he should apologise and correct the record. While the amount of uncollected tax actually rose last year, the chancellor was using smoke and mirrors to hide his own failure.”

The news will add to concerns that the government and HMRC are publicly claiming to clamp down on tax avoidance while in private pursuing quite the opposite. ‘The Independent’ previously reported how Andrea Leadsom, the new City minister, used controversial trusts to reduce her potential tax bill and took advantage of offshore banking arrangements for her buy-to-let property company.

For the whole article (and a lovely photo of Osborne!):-
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/george-osborne-accused-of-lying-to-parliament-on-his-hard-line-against-corporate-tax-avoiders-9692327.html

That truly is an excellent likeness of The Chancellor, but would you buy a Used Car from him?

The Irish Government is in hot water with the EU over alleged "tax rebates" to the American tech company Apple, which might represent an illegal government-subsidy.

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/irish-apple-tax-rebates-illegal

Isn't it good that "we're all in this together"?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B575jqGIMAAu4P0.jpg

Meanwhile, "hardworking families" find that PAYE has deducted the income-tax before they even see their wages.

Ed Miliband: "I won’t back down on tax avoidance"

From an article by Patrick Wintour:-

Ed Miliband has said he will demand that Bermuda and other UK tax havens be put on an international blacklist within six months of a Labour government taking office unless they end their system of secrecy and produce a public register of offshore company owners. He insisted: “I am not going to back down. The time has come to put an end to a society in which one group of people can play by different rules to the rest.”

Miliband said: “There is nothing pro-business about defending tax avoidance. Millions of British people and businesses pay their taxes and they are damaged by this behaviour.” Specifically, Miliband pointed out that Cameron, during his chairmanship of the G8 in 2013, had promised to make a crackdown on tax evasion one of his central goals. At that time he had demanded reforms from Jersey, Guernsey and other crown dependencies, including a commitment from each to make the true owners of companies located in their jurisdictions public.

Miliband said: “Cameron made this big promise 18 months ago that he was going to force UK tax havens in crown dependencies to open up and he has totally failed to meet that promise. We are sending a very clear message. A Labour government is not going to have endless consultation and dithering. We are going to give six months to these tax havens to agree to publish a register of beneficial ownership, and if they do not act we will recommend to the OECD that they are put on a blacklist.”

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/feb/06/ed-miliband-tax-avoidance-business-labour

MPs have accused the accountancy firm PriceWaterhouseCoopers (PwC) of promoting "tax avoidance on an industrial scale".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31147276

Why has no party ever given the figures of what Income tax and corporation tax would be if all those individuals and corporations who use tax avoidance schemes paid the correct amount of tax?

There is nothing illegal about organising your business so as to minimise exposure to tax liabilities.  As long as international law allows global mega-companies to move their receipts and expenses around within specially-created companies under the same umbrella, there will be little change.

Rather than foaming at the mouth about Cayman Islands, Bermuda, BVI and Guernsey, the UK government should introduce a Sales Tax on all business transacted within its jurisdiction.
 Starting with credit-card transactions.  
Foreign companies would be entitled to claim rebates if they can demonstrate entitlement.

There can be few people who actually like to pay taxes. Probably at the favourable end of the scale are those who recognise that everyone wishing to enjoy the benefits of civilisation must contribute according to their ability. At the other end are those who regard taxpayers as mugs, to be exploited.

It's not realistic to expect total moral honesty from every member of society, so the Rules must be tough enough to maintain the legendary level playing-field. If the system can be beaten, it's a sign that the system needs to be strengthened.

Writer Peter Oborne resigned as The Daily Telegraph‘s chief political commentator over HSBC’s coverage, calling it a “fraud on readers.”

http://tribune.com.pk/story/840074/fraud-on-the-readers-peter-oborne-resigns-from-british-newspaper-over-hsbc-reporting/