Can God love? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

The problem we have is that we can only think in our limited terms , we do not know of any process that covers the universe but if we did it would be just as simple as us explaining to a child how a toy was made etc

Depends on how much education you have, how bright you are and whether or not you are willing to learn things that are outside your comfort zone in the search for the truth. The universe and all that is in it is a complex place.

All the atoms that make up you were created in the stars. We are stardust, poly.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990625080416.htm

polyglide wrote:....
I have stated previously the odds of an eye coming about by chance are beyond those accepted as impossible, then we have the fact that even were the eye to have evolved for it to become part of an animal and work as it does is just as impossible, according to the odds add to this all the interdependancies and the odds of them comming about by chance and then add all the other such events and their odds and you have odds beyond  that whic one can calculate...

It is unfortunate that you should pick the eye as your target for an anti evolutionary outburst. It is probably the worst example that you could have picked. Many simulations have been done to show how such an organ could evolve AND all the stages that the eye would have to go through to reach the one that you and I use are still extant in the animal kingdom.

You could try looking at the article in Wiki that goes with


which is here

A more detailed scientific paper giving an estimate (of how long it would take to evolve is here.

As I have Stated previously I can give a theory of how anything you wish to put forward however difficult and seeming impossible it may be, a theory is a thoery and the odds of the eye developing in the amnner you refer to is as all the odds indicate impossible.

polyglide wrote:As I have Stated previously I can give a theory of how anything you wish to put forward however difficult and seeming impossible it may be, a theory is a thoery and the odds of the eye developing in the amnner you refer to is as all the odds indicate impossible.

No matter how unlikely you think an eye to be it is much better odds than the chance of a god existing. By your argument, therefore, gods are impossible.

The evidence for god is all around you, Norm

polyglide wrote:As I have Stated previously I can give a theory of how anything you wish to put forward however difficult and seeming impossible it may be, a theory is a thoery and the odds of the eye developing in the amnner you refer to is as all the odds indicate impossible.

Yeah, just like anyone can invent a religion.

Shirina wrote:

polyglide wrote:As I have Stated previously I can give a theory of how anything you wish to put forward however difficult and seeming impossible it may be, a theory is a thoery and the odds of the eye developing in the amnner you refer to is as all the odds indicate impossible.

Yeah, just like anyone can invent a religion.

Are we back to L Ron Hubbard and scientology again ?   

polyglide wrote:As I have Stated previously I can give a theory of how anything you wish to put forward however difficult and seeming impossible it may be, a theory is a thoery and the odds of the eye developing in the amnner you refer to is as all the odds indicate impossible.

The irony of your intransigent denial is that every one of those stages can be found in nature. The computer simulation estimated 500,000 generations to create the eye from scratch. When you thinbk of that in terms of time scale it is almost the blink of an eye...   

The fact is that the stages are man invented and not what would be of relevance in a uncontrolled and isolated manner.

There must be intelligence involved for anything to realise the potential of sight and the only manner this could be achieved is by aforethought. God is the creator and not pot luck.

So, in summary, you're saying that man invented the various stages of the evolution of the eye (that, as has been pointed out, can be observed currently in nature) even though these were created by a god which designed them?

No, I am saying that all creatures with eyes were made so by GOd, the creatures that do not have eyes do not need them and God designed them so.

There many scientists who disagree with the method you quote, based on both possibility and probability.

polyglide wrote:
There many scientists who disagree with the method you quote, based on both possibility and probability.

The very fact that you make claims like this all the time without ever backing them up says it all.

polyglide wrote:No, I am saying that all creatures with eyes were made so by GOd, the creatures that do not have eyes do not need them and God designed them so.

There many scientists who disagree with the method you quote, based on both possibility and probability.

Ooooh, so if God is directly responsible for the design of the eye, it means he's either malicious for purposefully designing the eye to fail as we get older - not to mention all of the flaws in the design that allows for blindness - OR God is incompetent for designing the eye so poorly, especially for humans. When compared to other animals, our eyesight isn't all that spectacular.

And now you're admitting that God is behind it, so now you can't ever again claim that God is not responsible for suffering.

Case closed.

(Even though I know you'll wriggle and squirm with illogical rationales as to why God isn't REALLY responsible.)

The devil is responsible for poor eyesight

Dan Fante wrote:The devil is responsible for poor eyesight

LOL! Right, right ... but if he argues from that perspective, it means that Satan is also a "creator god" and thus we can't really know what is divine and what is satanic. I'd be amused watching him stumble over that one.

All man's problems be they of health or anything else are self created.

By ignoring the advice God gave man, has resulted in his problems.

I do believe Satan has certain powers that we do not understand and we do not know the circumstances of the dispute between the two.

Were we intended to know then I am sure God would have done so.

polyglide wrote:All man's problems be they of health or anything else are self created.

By ignoring the advice God gave man, has resulted in his problems.

I do believe Satan has certain powers that we do not understand  and we do not know the circumstances of the dispute between the two.
 
Were we intended to know then I am sure God would have done so.  

Supposing an asteroid or a comet was on a collision course with Earth (this has happened many times in the past and will inevitably happen at some point in the future). How is that the fault of humanity?

I agree that there are numerous questions left on the plate when considering all the implications of life etc;

There is a dimension in the universe that we cannot comprehend our understanding is limited to what we can see hear and feel but there is obviously a key to everything that will be simple once we know.

Natural occurances that appear beyond our understanding will have a simple explanation.

We do not know if Satan has anything to do with such matters but it makes more sense to think so than anything else.

You can't categorically say all man's problems are self-created in that case.

polyglide wrote:All man's problems be they of health or anything else are self created.

By ignoring the advice God gave man, has resulted in his problems.

I do believe Satan has certain powers that we do not understand  and we do not know the circumstances of the dispute between the two.
 
Were we intended to know then I am sure God would have done so.  

Our bodies can only be as good as God created them, no?

In other words, God never designed humans to have the eyesight of an eagle, the strength of a gorilla, the speed of a cheetah, and the grace of a cat.

You keep saying yourself that a human alone on an island "wouldn't last 2 minutes" against the forces of nature.

Well ... who made us so weak and feeble? Who made us incapable of survival?

Do you think God created us with all of these wonderful superhero type abilities only for Satan to wander in and take those powers away?

If we are to assume that Satan has the ability to muck things up here on earth, then either God wants him to, meaning God is willfully negligent - it's akin to hiring a pedophile to babysit his kids. Or ... God doesn't know what Satan is doing or doesn't have the power to stop him. Thus God is neither all-powerful or all-knowing and therefore not deserving of worship, much less the title of "God."

It should inspire even the most devout Christian to perk up a little and wonder - just who the hell is in charge around here anyway?

polyglide wrote:As I have Stated previously I can give a theory of how anything you wish to put forward however difficult and seeming impossible it may be, a theory is a thoery and the odds of the eye developing in the amnner you refer to is as all the odds indicate impossible.

Your problems start when we see how many species have a pair of them, and of course that every stage of the evolution of the eye can be seen on living species right now. Dear oh dear, but you're right I'm sure, it's obviously far more probable that magic was the root cause, and that ancient superstitious religions uncovered this "fact" much to the chagrin of scientific empiricism which can do no better than the mountains of evidence they've produced to validate Darwin's genius.

That's PG you are talking about Sheldon,you can be as harsh as you like you know (lol).

Star dust I believe is relative to the stage and actors, there is no way in which man can compehend the extent of the universe, the last space experiment involved years of travel and multi millions of miles and no one knows how little or how small this is to the actual size.

Man has a very limited knowledge of what is on earth but that which he does know has caused more problems than benefit, as for the universe he knows next to nothing.

Polyglide, have you ever thought that you are a very negative person and that your negative thoughts are a direct result of your religious beliefs? What are people like in your day to day existence? How many truly evil people do you meet or know? I mean really evil.

I tend to associate with like people who have the same opinions and understanding.

There is no point in doing othe4rwise.

The world is full of evil people, do you ever read the newspapers etc?.

polyglide wrote:Star dust I believe is relative to the stage and actors

I think you're confusing the elements which are contained within stars with this fella:

well said Heretic,and also very true my friend.

There are some people one can feel at ease with and others not so,
however, this does not prevent one from eather listening to or considering, the ideas and thoughts of all.

Freemason,take it you are a theist,forgive me if i'm wrong. Please put your spell check on as you cannot spell correctly,many thanks.

God's hand is held at the moment if you read the bible, Satan is having his time, which the prevailing conditions would indicate are reaching their end, after which God will have his say.

PG,you can really talk some rubbish at times,prevailing conditions are reaching the end are they,god told you that personally did he?

polyglide wrote:What morons think is one sided, they do not understand that there is a war going on, between entities that we do not understand.

Let's assume for the briefest of moments that Christianity is actually true.

There is no "war" as you call it. Just two entities in collusion with each other to make humanity miserable. The only "war" taking place is God and Satan's war against us. They sure as hell aren't fighting each other, and this fact can be verified by simply reading the story of Job. Any actual war between God and Satan would last less than a nanosecond given that God could snuff out Satan's existence with less than a thought. The only reason why Satan still exists is because God wants him to exist. Otherwise ... Satan wouldn't exist (unless you're admitting that God lost control of his own creation and that opens up a completely different can of worms).

God even keeps Satan supplied witn new victims (humans, of course) so that even though God supposedly hates sin, he keeps Satan around to lead the place of eternal torment. Satan is not in hell suffering. No, he is rejoicing at all of the souls God is sending him. Just where is this "war" you speak of? Do you see God and Satan doing battle? Of course you don't. What you DO see is God and Satan working cooperatively against us. They are de facto ALLIES, polyglide, not enemies - and they are allied against humanity. Worshiping God and rejecting Satan would be like embracing Nazi Germany but rejecting Imperial Japan. Both commit atrocities, both are allied with each other, and both are waging war. Not against each other, but against the rest of the world. What would be the point of giving Hitler a hug while kicking Tojo in the shin? The idea would be to reject them BOTH.

And so ... even under your own belief system, atheism makes the most sense.

Now the briefest of moments is over and I hereby affirm that the aforementioned assumption that Christianity is true is no longer in effect forthwith.

polyglide wrote:God's hand is held at the moment if you read the bible, Satan is having his time, which the prevailing conditions would indicate are reaching their end, after which God will have his say.  

Do you realise that, if this were true, it would either mean that God couldn't stop Satan from 'having his time' or that he is choosing not to stop Satan? Neither option reflects well on him.

If you read the Bible you will find that Satan challenged God in as much as he said he could turn everyone against him.

The terms between the two we do not know but circumstances dictate that Satan was given a free reign just as God gave man the freedom of choice.

Otherwise there would not be a fair trial.

To blame God for man's stupidity is pointless.

I really don't know how to reply to that, Tipsy, since it doesn't even attempt to address the rather obvious conundrum raised in my previous post. I take it the last line wasn't self-deprecating humour either.

polyglide wrote:
To blame God for man's stupidity is pointless.

Personally I am inclined to blame man's stupidity for inventing gods. And for worshipping them.

God created man and gave him choice and the result of doing so is evident world wide.

God said he was the only God and for many reasons man decided to take no notice and did in fact create false God's, another bone in man's coffin.

To believe that and not to blame god is a classic case of cognitive dissonance, PG.

No, it is the truth.

The complete lack of thought in your reply doesn't exactly refute my previous post, PG.

You do not have to think about the truth it is a fact.

How can you come to a conclusion without thinking about it first, PG?

I'll leave you to ponder that one (not too much, obviously).