Can God love? (Part 2)

by snowyflake Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

The problem we have is that we can only think in our limited terms , we do not know of any process that covers the universe but if we did it would be just as simple as us explaining to a child how a toy was made etc

Depends on how much education you have, how bright you are and whether or not you are willing to learn things that are outside your comfort zone in the search for the truth. The universe and all that is in it is a complex place.

All the atoms that make up you were created in the stars. We are stardust, poly. Smile

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990625080416.htm

by Tosh Thu May 30, 2013 3:51 pm

Personally, I prefer to consider whether I exist, and, if so, what might be my purpose.

To deny existence requires consciousness, and to deny consciousness requires consciousness, its safe to say you exist.

Personally I think you should consider why existence must have a purpose beyond that which you attribute to it.

Maybe a more fruitful notion to ponder might be, do we as individuals have any moral duty to do good to each other? and if so, how might that be achieved?

We have a duty to protect ourselves and our family from environments that may harm us, as creators of our environment, creating an environment of less harm is a reasonable ambition, morality tends to be focused around harm. Creating an environment where the most harm is inflicted on the most number of people is counter intuitive because it is in effect self defeating, morality is the antithesis of this notion.
It can be achieved by removing the causes of harm and by persuading humans to adopt universal rights and responsibilities, a reasonable mind understands the benefits of creating an environment free from harm.

by Tosh Thu May 30, 2013 4:12 pm

I fail to see how anything, let alone meaningful, can be gleaned from a myth, only about the mind of the one/s who started the myth perhaps.

The myth of the god of human behavior suggests the biggest threat to humans came from human behavior, this myth replaced other myths which reflected previous threats to human survival. We are cause and effect thinkers, and everything that existed or happened, existed and happened for a reason. Its why some humans still find a universe caused for no reason rather uncomfortable, and I would imagine in our brutal past, dying for no reason but randomness did nothing to reduce the anxiety of death.

We found psychological survival tools and for most of our history they worked.

by Greatest I am Thu May 30, 2013 4:42 pm

True and we placed those tools into our secular laws and scrapped the draconian God of the bible laws.

Regards
DL

by boatlady Thu May 30, 2013 5:50 pm

You might like this guy.
He basically thinks our way.

speak for yourself

by boatlady Thu May 30, 2013 5:54 pm

Is that a large pin that holds the world together, or a small pin that holds two pieces of cloth? I only ask because if it holds the world together and they pull the pin the consequences are greater than the other option. .

Just any old pin, thanks for asking - I'm no metaphysician sunny

by Greatest I am Thu May 30, 2013 6:17 pm

boatlady wrote:
You might like this guy.
He basically thinks our way.

speak for yourself

I guess that you missed where he basically says what you did.
Oh well. Your loss.

Regards
DL

by Shirina Thu May 30, 2013 10:06 pm

Maybe a more fruitful notion to ponder might be, do we as individuals have any moral duty to do good to each other? and if so, how might that be achieved?

As gregarious creatures, morality is necessary for humans to co-exist with each other in close proximity. Imagine a world where literally anything goes - murder, rape, theft, etc. That civilization would collapse overnight, and no one beyond the immediate family circle could live side by side with each other. This kind of morality does not need to come from a higher power; it is simple common sense.

Religious morality is a horse of a different color for it is often unnecessary and often oppressive. Whenever a god or a religion involves itself in morality, the waters are muddied beyond all reason

I don't think any kind of universal morality will ever be achieved due to the immense number of variables, stressers, and historical forces that could induce a good person to commit an evil act.

by Greatest I am Fri May 31, 2013 1:58 am

Shirina wrote:
Maybe a more fruitful notion to ponder might be, do we as individuals have any moral duty to do good to each other? and if so, how might that be achieved?

As gregarious creatures, morality is necessary for humans to co-exist with each other in close proximity. Imagine a world where literally anything goes - murder, rape, theft, etc. That civilization would collapse overnight, and no one beyond the immediate family circle could live side by side with each other. This kind of morality does not need to come from a higher power; it is simple common sense.

Religious morality is a horse of a different color for it is often unnecessary and often oppressive. Whenever a god or a religion involves itself in morality, the waters are muddied beyond all reason

I don't think any kind of universal morality will ever be achieved due to the immense number of variables, stressers, and historical forces that could induce a good person to commit an evil act.

There will likely always be that and the insane.

I do not agree with your last though as it may be that we instinctively already have a moral sense hard wired into us.

I may have shown you this, I have forgotten, but let me give you what leads me to this conclusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

And as we get older.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Regards
DL

by polyglide Fri May 31, 2013 10:47 am

I feel the real question should be, do we humans owe God repayment for all that he supplied in an endevour for us to have a perfect life.

All he requested was adherance to that which would enable us to have a perfect life.

Just because man has made a complete mess of everything he has touched does not reflect badly on God.

As I have said on previous occasions, man has the choice, if he decides to take the wrong path it is no ones fault but his.

If man did not have free choice he would be a robot.

by Greatest I am Fri May 31, 2013 11:12 am

polyglide wrote:I feel the real question should be, do we humans owe God repayment for all that he supplied in an endevour for us to have a perfect life.

All he requested was adherance to that which would enable us to have a perfect life.

Just because man has made a complete mess of everything he has touched does not reflect badly on God.

As I have said on previous occasions, man has the choice, if he decides to take the wrong path it is no ones fault but his.

If man did not have free choice he would be a robot.

Tell us what happened the first time A & E did their will and not God's and ate of the tree of knowledge. They were not robots but sure became God's victims when he murdered them by neglect.

To your foolish theme though.

So children have amore of a responsibility to their parents than parents do to their children.

Pretty twisted view that.

No wonder you do not mind the fact that God the father had his own son murdered instead of doing the right thing and stepping up himself to fill his own requirements for a barbaric blood sacrifice.

Is that what you would do or would you do the right and natural thing?

Regards
DL

by polyglide Fri May 31, 2013 12:35 pm

Natural thing????

This term depends entirely on what is involved.

All humans have a resposibility for their own actions, be they children or grown ups.

It is the responsibilty of parents to teach their children right from wrong and in doing so the children would know how to treat their parents, or anyone or anything else.

You are trying to consider God to Humans and that is a big mistake.

We know not exactly how or why God, apparently in our small minds, does that which we cannot understand, the problem being we do not know what is involved in the domain in which God resides.

Nor do we understand that which is involved nor who is involved, unless you have all the relevant facts you cannot come to a reasoned conclusion.

That is why I base my faith in that which I do know and have actually experienced rather than speculation.

by Greatest I am Fri May 31, 2013 12:59 pm

So if God has no responsibility towards us his children and scriptures tell us to emulate him, we too should ignore and responsibility to our children.

Right?

We too should all be deadbeat dads like your God was. Right?

If father or son needs to die, all fathers should have their sons die. Right?

Are you capable of honest and straight answers?

Regards
DL

by Tosh Fri May 31, 2013 1:37 pm

I feel the real question should be, do we humans owe God repayment for all that he supplied in an endevour for us to have a perfect life.

I feel the real question is how you are allowed out without supervision, these care in the community programs never work.

by trevorw2539 Fri May 31, 2013 4:37 pm

All humans have a responsibility for their own actions, be they children or grown ups.

You only have responsibility for your actions when you you are able to comprehend right from wrong. And that also depends on your definition of right and wrong. Certain things are unmistakenly right and wrong, some 'rights and wrongs' are down to your culture and upbringing.

by Greatest I am Fri May 31, 2013 8:51 pm

trevorw2539 wrote:
All humans have a responsibility for their own actions, be they children or grown ups.
You only have responsibility for your actions when you you are able to comprehend right from wrong. And that also depends on your definition of right and wrong. Certain things are unmistakenly right and wrong, some 'rights and wrongs' are down to your culture and upbringing.

Many children and babies in the days of Noah were not responsible and thus innocent from your description.
That would mean that God murdered many innocent children and babies. Right?

Or do you give him a pass on that when you would condemn anyone else if they did what your God did?

Regards
DL

by polyglide Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:41 am

God does not do any of the things you apply to him.

It is the choice of man that determines the outcome of anything.

God will only give help if it is requested in the proper manner and is allowed within the terms of the agreement between God and the Devil.

You just do not understand what you are talking about.

If two people are given a brand new car and both told exactly how to maintain it to have a long life and one does so and the other ignores the instructions and he does as he thinks best and the car falls to pieces, whose faault is it?.

The manufacturers or the idiot who did his own thing?

by Tosh Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:07 pm

God will only give help if it is requested in the proper manner

eh ?? eh ???? eh ???

What about the poor people in history who were never told about God ?

and is allowed within the terms of the agreement between God and the Devil.

I am sorry but you need locked up, you are just not right in the head, a freakin " agreement " between two spirits...............HELLOOOOOOOOOOO.

by Shirina Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:27 pm

I feel the real question should be, do we humans owe God repayment for all that he supplied in an endevour for us to have a perfect life.

No.

God never wanted us to have a perfect life or he wouldn't have put the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden to begin with. According to your beliefs, God gave humanity death, disease, hardship, and disaster from the very FIRST act of disobedience by two naive humans without a speck of wisdom - and then foisted this ridiculous blame onto every human being born since. What a jackass for doing such a thing, and the fact that you believe it to be true and still think God is all that and a bag of chips is just beyond mind-boggling. It takes a lifetime of brainwashing for a person to worship a bloodthirsty murderer.

If man did not have free choice he would be a robot.

Did I have a choice not to be a sinner? No? Then so much for free will. I'm a robot sinner. I have no choice but to sin because I'm not perfect. Wow, if only God had given us THAT choice, then perhaps the world would be a better place, no? Instead, God made us into his little robot sinners with no choice in the matter. Your idea of "free will" is as hollow as your religion ... filled to bursting with contradictions and heaping, steaming piles of bovine manure.

Maybe if you actually used your mind instead of your faith, you'd see this incredible sham for what it is.

Nor do we understand that which is involved nor who is involved, unless you have all the relevant facts you cannot come to a reasoned conclusion.

That's the real rub, now, isn't it. There ARE no "relevant facts" when it comes to God and religion. Instead, all we have are a handful of half-literate desert tribesman looking at the sky or hallucinating in caves turning the crap they made up in their drug-addled, sleep-deprived, half-starved, superstitious, primitive minds into a "truth" that contains not one shred of verifiable, testable, falsifiable evidence.

God will only give help if it is requested in the proper manner and is allowed within the terms of the agreement between God and the Devil.

Imagine if someone just shot you and you're lying on the ground slowly bleeding to death. Another man, a doctor as it happens with the power to fix you, comes along to stand over you. Knowing you're going to die, you ask him for help, but the doctor shakes his head and replies, "Why should I help you? You didn't ask me with the right words. I'll wait here until you guess what they are. Hurry, your time is running out!"

Would you feel love and worship for this man?

Or, what's even worse ... what if the doctor instead responded with, "Well, I might be able to help you, but I'll have to talk it over with your murderer first to see if it's okay."

"... allowed within the terms of the agreement between God and the Devil."

WTF?!?!?!?!

Who is running the show? God or Satan? Are you suggesting that God is in LEAGUE with Satan? Holy damn, I can't recall the last time I've heard something so obscene.

The manufacturers or the idiot who did his own thing?

According to Christianity, humanity has a "manufacturer's defect" built in. It's called "original sin," something we can't avoid no matter how closely we follow the directions. So guess what, bud. You know whose fault it REALLY is.

by trevorw2539 Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:38 pm

Quote Shirina

'So guess what, bud. You know whose fault it REALLY is.'

Please Miss. It wasn't me. Crying or Very sad

by polyglide Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:18 pm

As usual you have not been able to actually understand anything at all. the same old nonsencicle response.

There was no inbuilt defect with the machine, the defects were as a result of not carrying out the correct procedure to ensure that it remained sound.

God did not build any defect into mankind, he gave them the choice of either doing the correct maintainance and the opportunity to enjoy all that he provided or take the Devil's path and become victims of all the perversions we find that now abound.

by Tosh Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:32 pm

God did not build any defect into mankind, he gave them the choice of either doing the correct maintainance and the opportunity to enjoy all that he provided or take the Devil's path and become victims of all the perversions we find that now abound.

Having read your guff for months I now welcome all perversions, if you are a product of correct maintenance then I want to be flawed.

Do you actually talk like this in public or do you save it all up for me ?

by Shirina Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:03 pm

Please Miss. It wasn't me.

Are you sure? *peers at you closely*

Razz

by Shirina Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:11 pm

God did not build any defect into mankind

Oh yes he did. The first defect manifested when, according to your beliefs, Eve took that first bite. The ease in which Eve was tempted to disobey ... not to mention God letting a demon prince gallivant around Eden in serpent form ... was a BIIIIG defect.

And then that defect was built into every successive human thereafter in the form of original sin. Did I ever get the opportunity to live in paradise and NOT eat the forbidden fruit? Nope ... because maybe I wouldn't have eaten it. Maybe you wouldn't have, either. But God decided that if Eve would eat it, everyone would eat it, and here we are with all those "perversions." What a nice guy your God is for deciding that we're all clones of Eve ... you know, ROBOTS!

Can God love? (Part 2) - Page 2 H7E715BE5

Can God love? (Part 2) - Page 2 H7E715BE5

by polyglide Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:07 pm

Utter nonsense once again.

From the beginning man or woman were allowed choice, for good or bad, had they not had choice they would have as I have said previously be programmed robots.

Just explain how you come to the conclusion that man had no choice.

by Shirina Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:50 pm

Just explain how you come to the conclusion that man had no choice.

What I'm saying, polyglide, is that I had no choice. Neither did you.

The fate of the entire human race was decided by the singular action of a singular person.

I certainly wasn't born into the Garden of Eden, and I'm certainly not here because I ate the forbidden fruit. What about you? Perhaps you and I would be living in paradise right now if we, personally, had been given the same choice as Adam and Eve. But we were not.

It is quite obvious that the defect in humanity existed before Eve took that ill-fated bite ... else she wouldn't have eaten the fruit to begin with.

It's even more obvious, however, that the entire story was a man-made invention - and I do mean man-made. Strange how Lilith, Adam's first wife, all but disappeared from Biblical canon, namely because Lilith was created as Adam's equal rather than as a sidekick and plaything. When Lilith refused to be subservient to Adam, suddenly she became a demon and then later removed from canon altogether. Eve, on the other hand, was what a patriarchal religion wanted - subservient, submissive, and totally devoted as Adam's little playpretty.

None of it had anything to do with God. Just misogynistic males who wanted women to knuckle under. Perhaps you're aware of what the Christians did to the Cathars for giving women equality? Yeah ... genocide. Nice, huh?

Adam and Eve is just a story. Nothing more.

by trevorw2539 Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:14 am

Shirina wrote:
Just explain how you come to the conclusion that man had no choice.

What I'm saying, polyglide, is that I had no choice. Neither did you.

The fate of the entire human race was decided by the singular action of a singular person.

I certainly wasn't born into the Garden of Eden, and I'm certainly not here because I ate the forbidden fruit. What about you? Perhaps you and I would be living in paradise right now if we, personally, had been given the same choice as Adam and Eve. But we were not.

It is quite obvious that the defect in humanity existed before Eve took that ill-fated bite ... else she wouldn't have eaten the fruit to begin with.

It's even more obvious, however, that the entire story was a man-made invention - and I do mean man-made. Strange how Lilith, Adam's first wife, all but disappeared from Biblical canon, namely because Lilith was created as Adam's equal rather than as a sidekick and plaything. When Lilith refused to be subservient to Adam, suddenly she became a demon and then later removed from canon altogether. Eve, on the other hand, was what a patriarchal religion wanted - subservient, submissive, and totally devoted as Adam's little playpretty.

None of it had anything to do with God. Just misogynistic males who wanted women to knuckle under. Perhaps you're aware of what the Christians did to the Cathars for giving women equality? Yeah ... genocide. Nice, huh?

Adam and Eve is just a story. Nothing more.

I don't think that Lilith 'became Adams wife' until the 9-10th century in Jewish mythological literature, later expanded in the Middle ages.

Although Lilith (satyr) appears in Isaiah 34 it is among a list of creatures. The same in one of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Still I agree with your point.

by Shirina Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:13 pm

Although Lilith (satyr) appears in Isaiah 34 it is among a list of creatures. The same in one of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Hmm, yes, but what's interesting about Isaiah 34 is that "the" Lilith is the only creature whose name is capitalized as a proper noun.

"There shall the Lilith repose ..."

Although Lilith (satyr)

Also interesting is why the Bible would reference a Greek mythological creature - the only creature on the list that is mythological (other than Lilith herself).

I'm not sure if, by putting "satyr" in parantheses after Lilith, means you believe Lilith and satyrs are one and the same, but according to Greek myth, satyrs were always male. That's why they were always trying to seduce women - no female satyrs (poor guys).

Lilith's taloned or "bird" feet would most closely resemble that of a harpy's.

Can God love? (Part 2) - Page 2 Harpy

Myths, including religious myths, have a nasty habit of becoming intertwined with each other, making it hard to separate one from another.

by trevorw2539 Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:20 pm

Shirina wrote:
Although Lilith (satyr) appears in Isaiah 34 it is among a list of creatures. The same in one of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Hmm, yes, but what's interesting about Isaiah 34 is that "the" Lilith is the only creature whose name is capitalized as a proper noun.

"There shall the Lilith repose ..."

Although Lilith (satyr)

Also interesting is why the Bible would reference a Greek mythological creature - the only creature on the list that is mythological (other than Lilith herself).

I'm not sure if, by putting "satyr" in parantheses after Lilith, means you believe Lilith and satyrs are one and the same, but according to Greek myth, satyrs were always male. That's why they were always trying to seduce women - no female satyrs (poor guys).

Lilith's taloned or "bird" feet would most closely resemble that of a harpy's.

Myths, including religious myths, have a nasty habit of becoming intertwined with each other, making it hard to separate one from another.

The Greek word Satyr and the Hebrew word Sa'iyr have similar meanings. The last being used in the OT a lot, and often with a translation relating to 'goats' 'devils' etc. But not as a being as in the Greek myth.

And my apologies. Embarassed

Lilith (screech owl - night creature) was the KJV translation of the word. Not Satyr. Embarassed

Memory dims with age.

by Greatest I am Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:33 pm

polyglide wrote:God does not do any of the things you apply to him.

It is the choice of man that determines the outcome of anything.

God will only give help if it is requested in the proper manner and is allowed within the terms of the agreement between God and the Devil.

You just do not understand what you are talking about.

If two people are given a brand new car and both told exactly how to maintain it to have a long life and one does so and the other ignores the instructions and he does as he thinks best and the car falls to pieces, whose faault is it?.

The manufacturers or the idiot who did his own thing?

God has terms of agreement between himself and Satan. Wow. A contract with evil.

God bargains with and forms agreements with evil. How droll.

Do you even think about what you wright?

Would you say that that is why God complained about Satan making him do evil and destroy Job without cause?

Is Satan the one who made your Gods an immoral prick?

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:38 pm

polyglide wrote:Utter nonsense once again.

From the beginning man or woman were allowed choice, for good or bad, had they not had choice they would have as I have said previously be programmed robots.

Just explain how you come to the conclusion that man had no choice.

When A & E used their free choice the first time, God made sure they died at his hand. Right?
He did lock away the tree of life. Right?

Was that moral for our heavenly father to do?

Is that what you would do?

Regards
DL

by oftenwrong Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:26 pm

The best detailed discussion and historical evaluation of the Lilith myth may be found in The Hebrew Goddess, by Raphael Patai (Wayne State University Press, 3rd edition, 1978). Patai presents an in-depth evaluation of the important but oft ignored role played by the feminine in Hebrew myth and religion, following the story of the Hebrew goddess from antiquity through its manifestations in Kabbalah and in the developing myth of Lilith.

http://www.gnosis.org/lilith.htm

by polyglide Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:10 pm

Shirina, we all have choices, we have to make them every day.

We cannot choose our parents, I agree, however, once we become aware of all that we learn and experience we have the choice of how we approach life and coduct ourselves.

There is no doubt that life is unfair in many ways due to where you are born, the opportunities some have and others do not, health wise and other considerations but all can be considered as the result of the actions of mankind.

When I bend a finger the pain can be horrific, the same for other limb, at times, I do not blame God, I blame the past generations who have indulged in every manner of activities that has resulted in all our problems.

by Jsmythe Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:02 pm

Life is only unfair when the status conditions are unequal to individuals. This unfairness is not due to nature or God,so to speak but due to humans themselves. Either we collaborate and share all we have,knowledge wealth and environment or we keep maintaining this great illusion of being either lucky or being unlucky.

I know its a good idea,and may seem unrealistic (by belief only) but in front of us is the anwsers already as plain as day.

Best wishes

by Jsmythe Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:08 pm

Good evening Greatest I am

Haven't seen you for a while.

(Learner)
Smile

by Greatest I am Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:32 pm

Jsmythe wrote:Life is only unfair when the status conditions are unequal to individuals. This unfairness is not due to nature or God,so to speak but due to humans themselves. Either we collaborate and share all we have,knowledge wealth and environment or we keep maintaining this great illusion of being either lucky or being unlucky.

I know its a good idea,and may seem unrealistic (by belief only) but in front of us is the anwsers already as plain as day.

Best wishes

We do share. Just not equally and I don't know if that can happen in a hierarchichal species like humans.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:34 pm

Jsmythe wrote:Good evening Greatest I am

Haven't seen you for a while.

(Learner)

I have been to and fro on the earth.
Eek. Who said that?

Regards
DL

by polyglide Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:12 pm

God has killed no one.

Man has done all the killing and for many different reasons.

Man has blamed God when attempting to justify his own short commings.

When told right from wrong man has ignored when it suited and the same applies today.

If you are told something bad will happen if you take a certain course and you ignore the warning you have only yourself to blame.

All deaths other than natural disasters, the reason for the latter we cannot explain, have been brought about by the actions, including all the illnesses, by the abuse of all things mankind has touched, including the disfunction of the brains of some.

by Greatest I am Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:16 pm

polyglide wrote:God has killed no one.

Thanks for sharing your lie.

by Greatest I am Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:31 pm

Can God love or have a moral sense?

Scriptures tell us that God is the bench mark for morality and love. I think it a foolish saying but many say that God is love. They also say that faith without works and deeds is dead. St James. In that description I include love. Love, without works, deeds and displays of some kind, is dead.

Morality is something that creatures will only develop if living in groups. The same could be said of love. There is no need for morality, good ethics or love if one is alone the way God was for untold millennia before creating anything.

He therefore had no need of morality or love and could not have had them or have any need or desire for them. An Omni-God has no wants or needs.

Morality in that sense is like love and faith. All of these need works and deeds or some form of display, ---- or as scriptures say, ---- they are dead.

God is not doing works and deeds and not showing his so called love of mankind in any knowable way and it would thus be incorrect to say that God is our moral bench mark or that God loves us or anyone else at all.

Perhaps this is why Christians have to develop a double set of moral standards to exonerate the immoral actions that the Christian God does. Christians praise and adore God for doing things that they condemn in man. Christians give a free pass for evil to their God. Somewhat in the same way that God gives Satan a free pass, and in fact, God helps Satan do evil by letting him roam free and even giving Satan the power to deceive us all. Quite the judge that. If he was human, good people would get rid of such, yet God is praised for such evil by his followers.

God does not seem to do works, deeds or other forms of display.

Can God have a moral sense and can he love without ever having to show it?

Are God’s morals and love dead?

Regards
DL

by polyglide Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:16 pm

You confuse the love of God with the frailties of mankind.

God has shown us the way and the light, we have strayed far from the way and never actually seen the light in many cases.

by Greatest I am Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:09 pm

polyglide wrote:You confuse the love of God with the frailties of mankind.

God has shown us the way and the light, we have strayed far from the way and never actually seen the light in many cases.

I confuse nothing.

Perhaps like me, if you sought the light the right way you would find it.

What is it they say of those like you who do the same things and expect some new outcome.

Try the right way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Regards
DL

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