Can God love? (Part 2)

by snowyflake Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

The problem we have is that we can only think in our limited terms , we do not know of any process that covers the universe but if we did it would be just as simple as us explaining to a child how a toy was made etc

Depends on how much education you have, how bright you are and whether or not you are willing to learn things that are outside your comfort zone in the search for the truth. The universe and all that is in it is a complex place.

All the atoms that make up you were created in the stars. We are stardust, poly. Smile

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990625080416.htm

by Greatest I am Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:09 pm

polyglide wrote:You confuse the love of God with the frailties of mankind.

God has shown us the way and the light, we have strayed far from the way and never actually seen the light in many cases.

I confuse nothing.

Perhaps like me, if you sought the light the right way you would find it.

What is it they say of those like you who do the same things and expect some new outcome.

Try the right way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y

Regards
DL

by polyglide Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:20 pm

I do not expect another outcome from my belief in God, I have considered all the alternatives and found them more wanting than the evidence of the existance of a creator.

There is more evidence to support God, although I do agree sometimes you have to realy seek to substantiate, than there is for any other answer to creation.

Every other alternative has been refuted on sound grounds and the fact that we can actually debate the matter is proof that mankind is a species far far removed from any other.

by Greatest I am Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:34 pm

polyglide wrote:I do not expect another outcome from my belief in God, I have considered all the alternatives and found them more wanting than the evidence of the existance of a creator.

There is more evidence to support God, although I do agree sometimes you have to realy seek to substantiate, than there is for any other answer to creation.

Every other alternative has been refuted on sound grounds and the fact that we can actually debate the matter is proof that mankind is a species far far removed from any other.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

If you do not act, you are not a moral man.
That or you do not believe.

Regards
DL

by Tosh Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:54 pm

Every other alternative has been refuted on sound grounds and the fact that we can actually debate the matter is proof that mankind is a species far far removed from any other.

The alternative has not been refuted and the only debate going on is in your imagination, evolution is an evidence based fact, deal with it and get over it.

You lot are a separate species of sub humans, just thick as mince.

by Curious Cdn Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:24 pm

Tosh wrote:
Every other alternative has been refuted on sound grounds and the fact that we can actually debate the matter is proof that mankind is a species far far removed from any other.

You lot are a separate species of sub humans, just thick as mince.

There is always hope. That subspecies has the potential to evolve into tarts.

by Tosh Thu Jul 18, 2013 8:46 pm

An old face from the distant past. Very Happy

by Curious Cdn Fri Jul 19, 2013 12:08 am

Tosh wrote:An old face from the distant past.

... finally out of rendition ...

by polyglide Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:07 pm

Some posts prove beyond doubt the depths of depravity that the ignorance of the truth has lead them to, the world is lost in the mist of ignorance to all that is good and you only have to read the news every day to realise the fact.

by Greatest I am Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:54 pm

polyglide wrote:Some posts prove beyond doubt the depths of depravity that the ignorance of the truth has lead them to, the world is lost in the mist of ignorance to all that is good and you only have to read the news every day to realise the fact.

Ya. Look at all the bad news eh.

Regards
DL

by polyglide Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:03 pm

Amongst the mist of evil you can find limited examples of humanity, this does not in any way make all the evil acceptable.

by Shirina Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:08 pm

polyglide wrote:Some posts prove beyond doubt the depths of depravity that the ignorance of the truth has lead them to

Which posts? Show me the posts that indicate the depravity of any member of Cutting Edge and I'll ban myself for the rest of the year. Refusing to march in lockstep with your fascist and intolerant religion does not, in any least way, indicate depravity.

However, THIS is depraved:

And he went up from thence unto Beth-el: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. -- 2 Kings 2:23-24

Yep, I bet they never teach THAT verse in church. Your god murdered forty-two (42) LITTLE CHILDREN for doing nothing more than insulting someone. This despicable character is the same god you worship, the same god with whom you wish to spend eternity on bended knee. A murderer. You would never sanction any government or any individual that would murder children for something so petty, thus why should we not expect something a little more noble from an all-powerful god?

No one on this forum sent bears to rip apart 42 kids, so I would think twice before accusing anyone here of any kind of depravity.

by Shirina Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:17 pm

polyglide wrote:There is more evidence to support God, although I do agree sometimes you have to realy seek to substantiate, than there is for any other answer to creation.

There is zero (0) evidence for the existence of ANY god, much less for any specific god. Yes, you "have to really seek to substantiate," and that's because the only so-called "evidence" is contrived and rationalized. It is the product of reaching a conclusion first and then searching for evidence to support it. This always results in contradictory evidence being ignored and other possible alternatives being dismissed.

You claim that all other alternatives to God have been disproved on sound ground. Really? Remember that disproving evolution (not that you've actually accomplished this) does not prove the existence of God.

by polyglide Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:39 pm

Welcome back Shirina, although I believe you to be mislead, unable to consider the actual facts as opposed to fantacy,I have a deep regard for your attitude in attempting to prove the impossible.

As I have stated previously, I am not at all worried or concerned about anything prior to the birth of Jesus.

The numerous accounts of events prior to Jesus are not applicable to the prevailing circumstances of the world.

What is of note are the prophecies that have been fullfilled.

I agree that the fact that evolution is the figment of deluded people's imagination does not prove the existance of God what does,is the world and all that it holds.

Why should I be interested in what are mainly examples of

by polyglide Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:42 pm

Read some posts, then look at the meaning of depravity.

by **Ivan** Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:00 pm

polyglide wrote:-
What is of note are the prophecies that have been fulfilled.

I wonder how many people read the astrology claptrap in magazines and tabloid newspapers and then try to relate events in their lives to the so-called predictions? That’s how I see the way in which the writers of the New Testament went about their business.

Wouldn’t it have been quite easy for those who compiled the gospels to tell the story of Jesus’ life so as to make it conform to Old Testament prophecies? In fact some of them couldn’t even copy straight – Matthew 27:9-10 claims to fulfil a saying that it attributes to Jeremiah, when the saying was actually in Zechariah 11:12-13.

We’re expected to accept that what Jesus said about the future of the Jews, and is recorded in Luke 19:43-44, was a prophecy which was later fulfilled, but it wasn’t exactly precise, was it? If your bible was so hot on predictions, why, for example, doesn’t it say somewhere that at the end of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers and it will be called the internet? There was plenty of room in the bible for precise details about how to keep slaves and sacrifice animals, yet the prophecies are so vague.

by polyglide Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:50 pm

I am afraid the internet will be a contributary factor in what man is going towards and it is not a better life.

by Shirina Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:32 pm

polyglide wrote:Welcome back Shirina

Thanks.

polyglide wrote:I believe you to be mislead, unable to consider the actual facts as opposed to fantacy

You have it all backwards, my friend. Gods are fantasy, they always have been. The only argument you have to the contrary is: "I don't know where life came from, therefore, God!"

polyglide wrote:As I have stated previously, I am not at all worried or concerned about anything prior to the birth of Jesus.

So you're just going to arbitrarily ignore half of the Bible? I mean, I realize that the Old Testament is a colossally inconvenient book for Christians trying to preach what a wonderful God their god is, but it's there, nonetheless, and it cannot simply be dismissed.

polyglide wrote:The numerous accounts of events prior to Jesus are not applicable to the prevailing circumstances of the world.

Oh? Are you sure about that? Are you REALLY sure?

One of the biggest conflicts in our modern world stems from the belief that God promised Israel to the Jews in ... wait for it, wait for it ... EXODUS. Yeah, one of those pesky Old Testament books. It is this belief that has set Jews against Palestinians and, by default, the rest of the Arab world. No less than five different wars have been fought over this belief, and international terrorism is largely fueled by the West's support of Israel. So ... perhaps you should rethink your erroneous assumption that events prior to Jesus has no affect on today's world.

polyglide wrote:What is of note are the prophecies that have been fullfilled.

The so-called "prophesies" in the Bible are self-fulfilling. They are fodder for religious fanatics and fundamentalists who deliberately try to fulfill those prophecies because they think it'll speed up Jesus's return. Thus they are less about prophesy and more about being an instruction manual for the religiously insane. If the Bible says that the nation of Israel shall be reborn, well, it doesn't take a genius to say, "Hey, we better set aside some land for Jews and call it Israel! Then we can distort the truth by saying a Biblical prophesy came true!"

polyglide wrote:what does,is the world and all that it holds.

How do you know that Shiva didn't do all of that?

by polyglide Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:20 am

I agree that the Jews will play a part in the eventual destruction of the world as we know it, and all the present circumstances point in that direction.

You might just as well say, how do I not know that another being created everything.

The point is Shirina, someone did.

As far as I am concerned everything points to God of the Bible.

If you have a credible alternative then please explain.

by Shirina Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:33 pm

polyglide wrote:I agree that the Jews will play a part in the eventual destruction of the world as we know it

The only thing inevitable concerning the destruction of the world is that the sun will eventually swell up to the orbit of Mars and then burn out, ending all life on this planet. I don't believe for a nanosecond that we are doomed to meet some cataclysmic ending named after a garbage pit in Israel - Armageddon. Prophesies are bunk ... Y2K, 2012, the crackpot Reverend Camping, etc. etc. This End Times nonsense has been going on for thousands of years, and they have a zero (0) percent success rate. Why people continue believing in this insanity is beyond me.

polyglide wrote:You might just as well say, how do I not know that another being created everything.

Not only do I "might as well say" it, I DID say it. How do we know who or what the creator is - assuming of course that there IS a creator?

polyglide wrote:As far as I am concerned everything points to God of the Bible.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't. Nor does it point to any god of any religion. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. The only reason why the God of the Bible is so appealing to you is because you were brought up in a predominantly Christian culture. Your indoctrination and the simple luck of being born where you are has determined your beliefs, not some inherent truth embedded in your Bronze Age mythology.

The thing that really gets to me about god worship, though, is the almost universal belief that gods are vain, arrogant beings who are easily offended and seem to delight in tormenting the human race. Thus for untold thousands of years, humans have scurried about like ants in their haste to placate and appease these gods, these invisible, inscrutable entities that only exist in the dark recesses of humanity's fear. In order to keep the dreaded wrath of god away from us, we hustle around praising, worshiping, and groveling to these beings, these gods, because, apparently, if you don't stroke their divine egos often enough, something horrific will happen. We wasted staggering sums of money and enormous amounts of time building monuments, temples, and cathedrals to these petulant, haughty creatures who never seem satisfied, never seem sated in their lust for worship. We cringe at the darkness, flinch at the thunder, and worry that every flood, every tornado, every volcano is a sign that god is displeased ... yet again ... over something or other. Then the scapegoating begins - it's the Jews! No, it's the gays! No, it's the liberals! It's the fault of witches, demons, black cats, the ACLU or even the dreaded *gasp* government! How many tens of millions have died on sacrificial altars, tied to stakes, strapped to torture devices, or simply put to the sword in an effort to prevent those always-pissed-off gods from blowing a gasket and destroying a city or two in some pique of rage?

Christianity is NO different. If you clear away all the bullshit, what you're left with is a god who demands that we worship and love him or else spend eternity being tortured. If we don't follow a series of stupid, increasingly irrational set of laws, bad things will happen. Sort of like that congressman who said, "If America doesn't get right with God, he'll go to some other country." LOL? Yep, it's the same old song and dance we've seen performed by countless religions before it: Keep those gods happy, by George, or pay the consequences!

What a squandered life, living in fear of our own imaginations, in fear of these non-existent deities. Sure, Christianity can try to invent a loving god; it tried to be different from previous religions but failed epically. Christians still have to deal with a "wrathful" and "jealous" God - two words that God himself used to describe his own demeanor. He even butchered his only son on a torture device, a blood sacrifice no better than the slaughter of children on Aztec altars in South America. Moral human beings should be APALLED at such an act of depravity, not stand in awe of the sacrifice.

At any rate, I digress. You get the idea.

by polyglide Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:30 pm

We know not much of the times when sacrifice appears to be a practise, we do not know the whole circumstances involved we are dependant on the writings of the time and we all know how things can be looked at in a different light by different people.

You only have to look at how you interpret the truth, by making a mockery of it.

There is obsolutely no fear involved in being a Christian, in fact just the opposite, there is love and hope as opposee to anything goes, the state of the world proves which is of the most benifit.

Those with ulterior motives use threats to frighten their victims to join their bogus religions.

by Shirina Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:09 pm

polyglide wrote:We know not much of the times when sacrifice appears to be a practise, we do not know the whole circumstances involved we are dependant on the writings of the time and we all know how things can be looked at in a different light by different people.

Yep that's true, morality changes over the centuries. Unlike your doom and gloom worldview, our morality has evolved by leaps and bounds. Today, we would never even consider such sick and depraved laws such as:

Murdering brides on their wedding night if they are found not to be a virgin (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Murdering all of the inhabitants of a town or city if even ONE person living there worships another god (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

Murdering all non-Christians (2 Chronicals 15:12-13 and Exodus 22:19 and Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

Murdering the daughters of priests if the daughter commits fornication (Levitcus 21:9) (Funny how many laws there are sanctioning the murder of specifically women)

Murdering anyone who commits blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16)

Murdering people who work on the Sabbath, murdering gays and lesbians, murdering adulterors, murdering "false prophets", murdering kids who "curse" their parents, murdering kids who strike their moms or dads, murdering people who don't obey priests, and the one that has killed more people than WWII .... "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Of course, they were all women, too.

Murder, murder, murder, murder, murder, murder, murder. The Bible is one of the most blood-soaked books ever written in all of human history, and this is the book where you want our morals to come from. You cannot juxtapose the horrific, barbaric morality of the Old Testament with our modern day morality, a morality vastly superior to any found in the Bible. I know you like to dismiss the Old Testament, but you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Your God told us to commit those barbaric acts against our family, our friends, and our neighbors -- even the 10 Commandmants say nothing of loving thy neighbor and four of them are useless religious laws like not working on the Sabbath. Yet no matter how mightily you deny and dismiss the Old Testament, it's there, and it's part of the Bible.

polyglide wrote:You only have to look at how you interpret the truth, by making a mockery of it.

Except you can't really make a mockery of my "interpretation" of truth because what I say IS truth. Do you deny the veracity of any factual information that I've presented in my post? Oh sure, you can rationalize, spin, distort, even ignore the truths I provide, but the Bible says what the Bible says, and you cannot rewrite it.

polyglide wrote:There is obsolutely no fear involved in being a Christian, in fact just the opposite, there is love and hope as opposee to anything goes, the state of the world proves which is of the most benifit.

The state of the world proves beyond much doubt that a population engaging in heavy religiosity are in decline. Some nations are in civil war (Syria, Egypt), others have ultra-strict and tyrannical laws (Saudi Arabia, Indonesia), and still others are warlike and violent (United States). Those nations with low religiosity and low levels of belief and faith are the most successful nations in almost every measurable category. Those nations treat their citizens well with strong safety nets, they have low crime rates, excellent medical care, high literacy rates, live longer lives, their children do better in school, there are fewer teen pregnancies, fewer STDs, have strong economies, do not engage in warfare -- I mean, it goes on and on. I'm not saying religion or the lack of it is the only cause, but if there isn't causation there IS correlation. Studies have proven this.

You don't need to bow down to some ancient, primitive tribal god in order to love one another. I'm as atheistic as they come and yet I live a moral life far better than most Christians. Anything does NOT go in my life. The state of the world undeniably shows that a lack of belief among a population makes for a better population. Right now, as it has been for a long time, the vast majority of the violence that takes place everywhere in the world has its roots in religious differences - whether it's Israel vs. Palestine, evangelicals in Africa killing children by the thousands for witchcraft, whether it's Shi'a vs. Sunni vs. Sufi vs. Wahabi, whether it's Christian vs. homosexual, whether it's the United States (Christian) military vs. the (Muslim) Taliban.

polyglide wrote:Those with ulterior motives use threats to frighten their victims to join their bogus religions.

Christianity must be a bogus religion, then, thanks for proving my point. Do you deny that if you do not worship God/Jesus, you will be sent to hell? Isn't that a threat?

by polyglide Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:00 pm

God has given us the choice of good or evil.

He points out the result of going with Satan, just as a parent would point out to a child the harmful prospects of doing certain things.

Gos would not do the things Satan will do but points the options out.

The choice is yours.

by Shirina Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:22 am

polyglide wrote:He points out the result of going with Satan, just as a parent would point out to a child the harmful prospects of doing certain things.

If a human parent did the things God did to the world's children, that parent would be locked away for the rest of his life. Why anyone would wish to worship a criminal is beyond my comprehension, but then again, even Jack the Ripper has a fan club.

polyglide wrote:Gos would not do the things Satan will do but points the options out.

How can we tell the difference between good and evil when a God we deem to be "perfectly good" goes around committing atrocities so heinous as to make even Hitler or Stalin look like altar boys by comparison?

Remember that Satan only killed a handful of people in the Bible - mainly Job's family, and that was only because God gave him permission. God wiped out the entire human population - babies, the elderly, the disabled, guilty or innocent, didn't matter. Kill 'em all and let ... well ... God sort 'em out.

There is NO excuse for an all-powerful God with infinite options to resort to barbarism and excessive brutality. Like I said, perhaps you should re-think who "Satan" really is.

by stuart torr Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:11 pm

Oh Tosh polyglide was being so stupid even that long ago? There is no cure i'm afraid. clown

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:21 pm

polyglide wrote:I would be realy, realy, concerned if I thouhgt you capable of any kind of rationalisation but to be called anything by you is like a demented camel trying to sound reasonable and sane.

Before attempting to explain the meaning of anything to anyone else please do a little investigating in the Dandy, Beano and the Micky Mouse books they will give you a lot to think about, as it is apparent anything else is completely lost on you.

The spelling in the Beano and the Dandy is at least really really good. Oh dear Polly.....

by stuart torr Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:56 pm

I know Sheldon his spelling is awful is it not?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:24 pm

stu wrote:I know Sheldon his spelling is awful is it not?

To be honest stu I am unconcerned about the spelling errors, his grammar is a joy to behold compared to his thought process, or what passes for a thought process. It just comes across as an atheist setting up a very poor impression of a theists in order to denigrate religion. I mean is this the best polemic religious apologists can muster on here? Where are all the intelligent theists to challenge the world view and logic of atheism?

by Shirina Sun Nov 10, 2013 6:37 pm

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Where are all the intelligent theists to challenge the world view and logic of atheism?

by snowyflake Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:52 pm

by snowyflake Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:55 pm

Hi Heretic

I think there may be other organisms that survive on sulphur in deep ocean vents. They've discovered several thermobacteria down there but I cannot remember where I read that. You can google for your own edification. Smile

Take care

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:16 pm

Shirina wrote:
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Where are all the intelligent theists to challenge the world view and logic of atheism?

I prefer this one:

Can God love? (Part 2) - Page 3 168034de55c563ba18

by polyglide Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:33 pm

I have to give you something to moan about because you have no answer to creation as opposed to evolution.

by stuart torr Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:00 pm

All you do is moan anyway and spell it wrong. Laughing

by Dan Fante Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:03 pm

polyglide wrote:I have to give you something to moan about because you have no answer to creation as opposed to evolution.

Surely that would mean people who believe in the latter should have more to moan about. Something else you haven't thought through? Wink

by polyglide Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:07 pm

I have never ever spelt it wrong.

by polyglide Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:14 pm

The question is can God love.

God is love.

What morons think is one sided, they do not understand that there is a war going on, between entities that we do not understand.

You cannot blame one side in a war who is doing everything for the right reasons and under acceptable circumstances whilst the opponent is using everything including the kitchen sink and every dirty trick in the book.

God is doing all he can at the present time and will eventually overcome all the evil and athiests.

by Bellatori Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:09 pm

polyglide wrote:God is doing all he can at the present time and will eventually overcome all the evil and atheists.

So you are saying that God is not omnipotent then. Actually indirectly that also implies that he is not omniscient either.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:11 pm

polyglide wrote:I have to give you something to moan about because you have no answer to creation as opposed to evolution.

Creation is a fantasy with no scientific evidence whatsoever, evolution is the evidenced scientific theory, that has been scrutinised for almost 200 years, and every year more and more evidence is discovered to validate it. Now this has been pointed out before so if you try to say no one has an answer again then we'll have to assume you're being deliberately duplicitous.

by Shirina Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:45 pm

polyglide wrote:God is love.

Ahh, no wonder why I've been somewhat disconnected from love lately.

I was doing it wrong.

If I massacre entire cities right down to the babies and then steal all the virgin girls, then perhaps I'll feel more love. Perhaps if I throw a bunch of little children into a bear pit and watch those kids be ripped apart, the love will come back. Perhaps if I leave the water running in my bathtub in an attempt to drown the whole world, the love will come flooding back (pun intended). Perhaps if I butcher the Medianites for a big land grab, I'll feel all warm and fuzzy with love. Oh, and I should start hating (and stoning to death) adulterers, homosexuals, witches, non-virgin brides, rebellious children, people who work on Sunday, and people who worship other gods. That should complete my reintroduction to love. Oh yeah, and if I really, really, really, really love someone, I should make them my slave and pass them on to my descendents. Don't worry, if I decide to beat my slaves, I'll make sure I keep them alive for a few days so I'm within the bounds of God's loving laws.

Oh yeah, and you DID say "God" and not Jesus, so the Old Testament is fair game.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:39 pm

polyglide wrote:

God is doing all he can at the present time and will eventually overcome all the evil and athiests.

As a theist you really ought to have a better grasp of what omnipotence means, as you would then be able to see how absurdly illogical that statement is. Now off you go with another personal attack on me....

by polyglide Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:28 am

Omnipotence means that God is all powerful along with all that that entails.

Why you are so certain no one but yourself understands anything is arrogance at it's most deplorable.

God's hands are tied at the present tme.

If you understand the Bible you will appreciate that the Devil at this time is at large and doing his utmost, and in your case successfully, to turn everyone against God.

This does not in any way conflict with my appreciation of the meaning and full understanding of omnipotence.

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