Can God love? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

The problem we have is that we can only think in our limited terms , we do not know of any process that covers the universe but if we did it would be just as simple as us explaining to a child how a toy was made etc

Depends on how much education you have, how bright you are and whether or not you are willing to learn things that are outside your comfort zone in the search for the truth. The universe and all that is in it is a complex place.

All the atoms that make up you were created in the stars. We are stardust, poly.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990625080416.htm

polyglide wrote:Let us try again.

You have a family which you love beyond compare.

You breed a type of animal that you love nearly as dearly.

The animal becomes  threatened with extinction.

The only way in which to save it is through one of your children being put at risk, however, should the risk be undertaken you could ensure that you could save the child even if things went wrong.

In the background you have an evil devil intent on destroying the animal along with your own family should the animal be destroyed.

Over to you.

If one could ensure that one could save their child if things went wrong, then one wouldn't be making the 'ultimate sacrifice'.

polyglide wrote:Let us try again.

You have a family which you love beyond compare.

You breed a type of animal that you love nearly as dearly.

The animal becomes  threatened with extinction.

The only way in which to save it is through one of your children being put at risk, however, should the risk be undertaken you could ensure that you could save the child even if things went wrong.

In the background you have an evil devil intent on destroying the animal along with your own family should the animal be destroyed.

Over to you.

Okay, try this one on for size:

I have a family which I love beyond compare.

I breed a type of animal that I love nearly as dearly.

The animal becomes threatened with extinction.

The ONLY way to save it is through one of my children being put at risk? No ... because I would remember that I'm omnipotent. There is no such possibility of having ONLY one way of dealing with a problem.

Since I'm omnipotent, I have virtually an infinite number of options at my disposal to save this animal from extinction.

So ... being omnipotent, I simply save the animal from extinction. *poof* There, done.

No need for any ritualistic barbarity involving blood sacrifices.

You as usual, have forgotten Satan.

*poof* Satan is still there.

We are not talking just about the abilities of God but those of Satan.

polyglide wrote:You as usual, have forgotten Satan.

*poof* Satan is still there.

We are not talking just about the abilities of God but those of Satan.

Satan, just like God, has no abilities. Fictional characters are like that - metaphorical but nothing more.

Been reading some funny comics again PG?

polyglide wrote:You as usual, have forgotten Satan.

*poof* Satan is still there.

We are not talking just about the abilities of God but those of Satan.

Oh right, I'll amend my original premise then:



Okay, try this one on for size:

I have a family which I love beyond compare.

I breed a type of animal that I love nearly as dearly.

The animal becomes threatened with extinction.

The ONLY way to save it is through one of my children being put at risk? No ... because I would remember that I'm omnipotent. There is no such possibility of having ONLY one way of dealing with a problem.

Since I'm omnipotent, I have virtually an infinite number of options at my disposal to save this animal from extinction.

So ... being omnipotent, I simply save the animal from extinction. *poof* There, done.

Also being omnipotent, I get rid of Satan. *poof* Gone.

Do you actually understand the meaning of omnipotent?

You do not understand just what is involved between the Devil and his Mob and God and his Angels et

Until you do you have no idea what you are talking about.

polyglide wrote:Do you actually understand the meaning of omnipotent?

You do not understand just what is involved between the Devil and his Mob and God and his Angels et

Until you do you have no idea what you are talking about.

Perhaps you would care to post your definition of "omnipotent"?

In the meantime:

OED - infinite in power; all-powerful;
Chambers - all-powerful;
Merriam-Webster - almighty; having virtually unlimited authority or influence
Collins - having very great or unlimited power

Very good Norm, this all powerful being that is a figment of their imagination!!

polyglide wrote:Do you actually understand the meaning of omnipotent?

You do not understand just what is involved between the Devil and his Mob and God and his Angels et

Until you do you have no idea what you are talking about.

So you're essentially saying that humans are just innocent bystanders in a cosmic war between good and evil.

In a galaxy far, far away, God's Empire is still looking for Satan's hidden rebel base.

Christ: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignifcant next to the power of God."

Angel: "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways, Lord Christ. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion hasn't given you the location of the rebel base. Or granted you clairovoyance enough to find the ... ACK! UGH! *choking noises*

Christ: "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

God: "Enough of this. Christ, release him."

Christ: "As you wish."


**Later**

Christ: "I want them alive. No distintegration!"

You take evreything out of cotext.

What's that from? Spaceballs?

No, from the Dandy, the only thing you appear to understand.

n.n.n.n.::::: ^^^^^. () i ££££. """".

Your god helped all those dead in japan did he not PG?

The irony of PG coming on here supposedly to save souls or whatever is that he is a great advert for atheism. There isn't a single example I can think of of a convincing argument that he's put forward.

Seconded there Dan.

I have actually lived in Japan for over two years.Seen the destruction created and learned that it is not those who actually suffered that were the cause of the trouble but the back room boys with agendas that the majority of the population would not agree with.

Just look at the latter example of Blair and the way he promoted wars, no one I know agreed with him.

You cannot blame God for the ills of the world, he is standing by hoping we take the opportunity given through the death of Jesus, what we choose is our fault.

Christians always have excuses don't they PG.

Dan Fante wrote: What's that from? Spaceballs?

Heh, nope. It's from the original Star Wars movie - when Tarkin, Darth Vader, and some other officer were sitting around a table. The officer was gloating over the power of the Death Star, Darth Vader tried to put the officer in his place by babbling about the Force, the officer didn't like it, and so Darth Vader used his Jedi mind powers to choke the officer. At that point, Governor Tarkin got sick of the bickering and told Vader to release the officer.

Oh well you cannot win them all eh Shirina.

Shirina wrote:

Dan Fante wrote: What's that from? Spaceballs?

Heh, nope. It's from the original Star Wars movie - when Tarkin, Darth Vader, and some other officer were sitting around a table. The officer was gloating over the power of the Death Star, Darth Vader tried to put the officer in his place by babbling about the Force, the officer didn't like it, and so Darth Vader used his Jedi mind powers to choke the officer. At that point, Governor Tarkin got sick of the bickering and told Vader to release the officer.

I knew that. I just love 'Spaceballs'.

polyglide wrote:I have actually lived in Japan for over two years.Seen the destruction created and learned that it is not those who actually suffered that were the cause of the trouble but the back room boys with agendas that the majority of the population would not agree with.

Just look at the latter example of Blair and the way he promoted wars, no one I know agreed with him.

You cannot blame God for the ills of the world, he is standing by hoping we take the opportunity given through the death of Jesus, what we choose is our fault.

Blair got his guidance from god though.

According to you PG everyone gets their guidance from god

Blair got hi guidance from America.

Blair prayed to God over Iraq and he believed God wanted him to go to go ahead with the war. I'm sure the good Christians running the show in the US of A at the time also thought they had a hotline with the G-man though. Everyone who claims to communicate with a deity has a claim as valid as everyone else. The mixed messages notwithstanding.

Blair is no more a Christian than I am a Siamese cat.

He is as bent as a dog's hind leg.

Just wait until the report on the Iraq war comes out.
#
If it is not a white wash then Blair will be in line for war crimes.

You don't get to decide who is and who isn't a Christian though, PG. All you have to do is believe in Jesus. Them's the rules. Check out the so-called good book if you don't believe me.

I agree that to be a Christian, TRUE CHRISTIAN, then all you have to do is believe that Jesus came to save the world and repent your sins.

However, not to sin again.

I enjoy sinning a lot PG.

I have realised that and you have my deepest sympathy.

I do not want it PG, in all sincerity.

polyglide wrote:I agree that to be a Christian, TRUE CHRISTIAN, then all you have to do is believe that Jesus came to save the world and repent your sins.

However, not to sin again.

The Bible states you just need to believe in him to get into to heaven so why bother with the rest?

If you believe in HIM, you act accordingly.

Act being the appropriate word PG.  

polyglide wrote:If you believe in HIM, you act accordingly.

Well, some Christians feel that way but it doesn't alter the fact that (according to the New Testament - which is the only thing that is relevant according to you, even if you have contradicted yourself on that one) you only need to believe in Jesus being the son of God to get into heaven. Perhaps if there'd been more stipulations you'd have those daft enough to believe in God behaving better but, in the absence of that, it's little wonder most are no more Christ-like than anyone else.

polyglide wrote:If you believe in HIM, you act accordingly.

And then people go around expecting everyone else to act accordingly, as well. Even if it means passing unconstitutional laws to make sure people act accordingly.

Trouble is - the Christian doctrine has been added to and taken away from so many times over the last two thousand years that who really knows for certain what being a "true Christian" even is these days. Only a fool would declare to have absolute knowledge of such a thing. How DOES a "true Christian" act and what sins are really sins?

Do you think committing suicide is a sin? If you do, then Bzzzzzzzt! Wrong! It's not. Nowhere in the Bible does it say committing suicide is a sin nor does it say you automatically go to hell if you kill yourself. Nope. Nowhere. In fact, several Biblical characters committed suicide for various reasons and none of them were sentenced to automatic hell.

No, the reason why most Christians are deluded on this point is because the Catholic Church - yeah, the Catholic Church, declared suicide to be a sin in 364 A.D. only because Christianity was falling into the practice of forming suicide cults. Now, 1700 years later, we actually think God or Jesus made suicide a sin when that is clearly not the case.

This is but ONE example of how religion has been polluted and contaminated with the ideas of ordinary men who were not speaking for God.

Who really knows whether what you believe is true. How many books were taken from the Bible and ruled non-canon - again by the Catholic Church - simply because very mortal and very fallible humans decided all by themselves that those books shouldn't be included? Who knows what may have been on the numerous pages of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were burned as fuel by the discoverer to keep his hut warm? Some fundamental piece of information might have been destroyed, something that would render all that you know about Christianity utterly moot.

You cannot have knowledge of how a "true Christian" might act because no one on this planet knows everything that may or may not have occured or everything that may or may not have been written. For all you know, a person like me is more likely to get into heaven than a person like you. Who knows? Certainly not you or me.

The Bible tells you who and who will not be saved.

The only Law that is applicable to a Christian regarding faith is God's Law.

God also tells you how to deal with laws made by man.

The bible written by ordinary men long after the events have supposed to have happened, full of lies.

polyglide wrote:Blair is no more a Christian than I am a Siamese cat.

He is as bent as a dog's hind leg.

It's raining metaphors like, uh .... cats and dogs.

  

polyglide wrote:The Bible tells you who and who will not be saved.

The only Law that is applicable to a Christian regarding faith is God's Law.

God also tells you how to deal with laws made by man.

How do you know the Bible is accurate?

I've already told you that numerous books of the Bible were arbitrarily removed by bishops and priests who thought those books just didn't quite sound right ... so they went bye-bye. I'm not even sure why modern Protestants accept this ruling by medieval Catholics, but they do, and no one really studies or believes in the Apocrypha texts anymore. God didn't take those books out of the Bible. Man did. So why aren't you studying the Apocrypha texts, too? I bet you're not.

You realize, too, of course, that the only reason your version of Christianity survived all of these years is because of the force of arms, right? Other Christian sects were butchered to extinction like the Gnostics and the Cathars (the Church especially hated Cathars because they gave women authority *gasp*). Plus wild-eyed barbarian rulers and certain kings (like Charlamagne) forced every village and city they conquered to kneel at an alter and convert to Christianity. If they refused? Well, the altar turned out to be just as useful as a chopping block.

Don't believe me? Do your history homework. Your religion exists today ONLY because "might made right" and NOT because of some inherent truth to its message. You are likely descended from someone who was bullied and threatened into Christian belief, and that belief has been passed down from generation to generation. Again, it has utterly nothing to do with how wonderful or accurate God's rules or God's laws or God's truths actually are.

Therefore, trusting in the Bible for some inherent law that speaks absolutist truth is just plain folly. Maybe the Cathars had the real truth. Or perhaps the Gnostics? We'll never know now, will we. Now picking the "one true" religion is nothing but a big guess that is heavily influenced by culture and nation.