Can God love? (Part 2)

First topic message reminder :

The problem we have is that we can only think in our limited terms , we do not know of any process that covers the universe but if we did it would be just as simple as us explaining to a child how a toy was made etc

Depends on how much education you have, how bright you are and whether or not you are willing to learn things that are outside your comfort zone in the search for the truth. The universe and all that is in it is a complex place.

All the atoms that make up you were created in the stars. We are stardust, poly.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990625080416.htm

No amount of education will make one able to understand for instance, the size of the universe.

The extent of education is solely dependant on the information we already have available and in our case very limited compared to the what the universe holds.

You have just given your opinions and not answerd my questions.

There is not one example that life could have been created by natural means.

I have given the odds regarding this.

I could give many more examples from people as equally qualified as anyone else who agree the odds as I have stated.

You will always get those who want to attempt to make a name for themselves by making experiments but all have had to start with that which has already been created.

No one has ever created life from nothing other than God and one of the most eminent scientists who has attempted to prove otherwise agrees.

If you do not know whom you know very little.

By your argument, polyglide, our limited capabilities shouldn't presuppose magic as an answer to anything. Yet, that is what you subscribe to. Magic.

It is easier for you to make meaning in your life if magic is the answer because the complexity of the universe is beyond your education. In fact, intellectual laziness is the reason for most religious belief. You refuse to see anything you don't understand. You don't understand science so you will believe that magic is a better answer.

Psychological neediness and emotional immaturity are also the reasons for belief. And the fear of death. You think your own measly existence is far more important that it actually is. There are ~30 billion people buried in the earth all thinking they were important to one god or another. But apparently, it's only the ones that believe in the christian god in the last 2000 years that count for anything. Does this make any sense to you?

If you mean God uses magic then I agree.

His ability might well in our terms be classed as magic.

he certainly can pull rabbits from hats can he not.

So you believe in magic, polyglide? That magic is the reason we are here and how we got here is by magic? All of those scientists over the last 400 years didn't contribute anything to our knowledge of the universe, our planet and the species on this planet because the answer is magic?

Well, I can quit my job and go home now. What was I thinking that scientific evidence that can be tested and proven is never the answer to anything. It's always been magic. All that time wasted. Might as well throw all that knowledge in the trash since magic is how it all happened.

How stupid are we?

We have all wasted our time have we not snowyflake according to PG, aLL THAT TRAINING I DID TOO.

The only thing dafter than his ideas are his debating tactics. If you can call them that. It's like trying to reason with a weary toddler.

You obviously do not understand when an example of your making is exposed as nonsense.

I sated that God can and did and does, create everything.

If you want to call it magic, good. or anything else for that matter.

There is no evidence whatsoever that life can be made from matter.

OH PG, sometimes I too like Dan weary with you, it is like talking to a brick wall. It is only your faith stopping you from seeing the truth ie abiogenesis.

Yes, when you have nothing in the way of an answer a brick wall may help you, a little head banging may be helpfull.

abiogenisis PG.

Don't you mean appologies.

FORGET IT

polyglide wrote:

There is no evidence whatsoever that life can be made from matter.

You have this exactly backwards. All life for which we have evidence is made of matter and there is no evidence for any other kind.

You can tell PG that til you are blue in the face Norm, you are fighting his faith mate, can move mountains. well could you move mt Everest and put it in my backyard please.

polyglide wrote:You obviously do not understand when an example of your making is exposed as nonsense.

I sated that God can and did and does, create everything.

If you want to call it magic, good. or anything else for that matter.

There is no evidence whatsoever that life can be made from matter.

Well, personally, I think this thread is WAAAAAAAAY ahead of itself. Why are we even talking about whether or not there is evidence that life can be made from matter? Hell, I'm still waiting for the evidence that proves there's a god at all ... much less the God of the Bible. We've skipped step one of this debate and launched right in to step 20. We should back up and cover the most basic of all religious debate premises. WHERE and WHAT is the empirical evidence for the existence of a god? No, anecdotes, personal experiences witnessed by no one but yourself, extremely subjective evidence (like babies and sunsets), and the Bible and other holy books do not count as viable evidence. So ... where is it? Cough up that evidence.

If I could prove the existance of God, then there would be no need for faith or any test of man's ability to lead the life intended.

You always forget Satan.

polyglide wrote:If I could prove the existance of God, then there would be no need for faith or any test of man's ability to lead the life intended.

You always forget Satan.

What is wrong with what we are doing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

Further, all the factors I check for evil, poverty, violent death even by war and slavery are all at the lowest they have ever been.

Where do you see us collectively going wrong since we are getting more moral and altruistic?

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:

You always forget Satan.

We never forget you buddy. That is why so many here are trying to save you.

Regards
DL

Tis a far, far ,better place I am trying to introduce you to if you could only open your eyes and in particular your mind.

polyglide wrote:No amount of education will make one able to understand for instance, the size of the universe.

The extent of education is solely dependant on the information we already have available and in our case very limited compared to the what the universe holds.

Well now, that's a bit of a paradox, don't you think?

If we can't possibly know the size of the universe as you contend, then how can we be certain that it's so big that we can't know the size of it?

Hmm?   

Then tell me please just how big it is?

Where it starts and where it ends and what is either side.

Don't be so stupid.

polyglide wrote:Tis a far, far ,better place I am trying to introduce you to if you could only open your eyes and in particular your mind.

Better!

How is a genocidal son murdering God better?

What did your God do when A %$ E opened their eyes?

God murdered them through neglect and locking away the tree of life. Right?

And you think that that God is a good God. Think again with open eyes.

Regards
DL

God did not murder anyone, man murdered Jesus.

|God actually saved him.

What commic do you read.

Except that we're Jesus is god and he knew his fate before it happened. Therefore the father, who is also god, also knew it was going to happen. So he allowed it at the very least. You have to wonder what sort of god takes the time to individual design billions of snowflakes (according to you) but sits back and allows his own son to be crucified.

Should read "we're told Jesus is god" in the post above.

Man had become so corrupt that there were very few who truely beleived in him. they thinking they new best.

God made the ultimate sacrifice to give those who still believed and who still do believe in him the evidence of his love of mankind.

There is no greater love.

polyglide wrote:God did not murder anyone, man murdered Jesus.

|God actually saved him.

What commic do you read.

Your bible. This quote says that your God murdered his son.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

He condemned Jesus even before creating the potential for sin. That is quite insane.

Can you refute this? No you cannot.

All you can do is tuck tail and mindlessly follow your genocidal son murdering God.

And you want respect. How droll.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:Man had become so corrupt that there were very few who truely beleived in him. they thinking they new best.

God made the ultimate sacrifice to give those who still believed and who still do believe in him the evidence of his love of mankind.

There is no greater love.

You claimed man killed Jesus and now you claim god made the ultimate sacrifice. Both options can't be true. If god killed Jesus / allowed him to die then since god can't die and Jesus would end up in heaven (which is meant to be great) then it's not really the ultimate sacrifice, is it? It's no sacrifice at all.

Do you actually understand what you print?.

God provided the sacrifice and man carried it out.

One thing I've never understood. We're told Jesus died for our sins. How does that work? I mean, what's the correlation between the two? It's a central tenet of Christianity so, as a Christian PG, can you explain it for me? I'm not even taking the proverbial. No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer.

Well I accept that it is a reasonable request.

The way in which I would consider it is:-

If you had a son and he had broken the law in such a manner that the only result should be punishment by the death penalty but were you to offer something you held almost as dear in exchange for his life then he could be saved.

polyglide wrote:Well I accept that it is a reasonable request.

The way in which I would consider it is:-

If you had a son  nd he had broken the law in such a manner that the only result should be punishment by the death penalty but were you to offer something you helda almost as dear in exchange for his life then he could be saved.

That's like a Diyyah in Islam. It doesn't seem to be analogous to what Jesus dying on the cross. I'm not having a pop, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

polyglide wrote:Well I accept that it is a reasonable request.

The way in which I would consider it is:-

If you had a son  and he had broken the law in such a manner that the only result should be punishment by the death penalty but were you to offer something you held almost as dear in exchange for his life then he could be saved.

So why did God not show his love for his son and step up the way you and I as a fathers likely would?

Fathers should die before their son's. Right?

Please answer without hiding behind that ridiculous Trinity garbage.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:Do you actually understand what you print?.

God provided the sacrifice and man carried it out.

In that case it was simply a matter of carrying out God's will. There is no moral responsibility except on God's part. The only blame that could be attached to man is failing to defy the murderous intent of the Evil Halfwit. (Of course, the Old Testament records all sorts of punishments inflicted by a powerful sadist against anyone brave enough to think for themselves.)

polyglide wrote:God did not murder anyone, man murdered Jesus.

|God actually saved him.

What commic do you read.

Doesn't that mean, then, that God did NOT sacrifice his only begotten son for the sake of Man - which the Christians (especially "Born Agains") constantly preach?

Of course, God could have simply forgiven Man without a blood sacrifice. He is God, after all. What forced an omnipotent God to do anything at all? It really doesn't make much sense that God would sacrifice his son to himself - what if he didn't? Would God get angry with himself for not giving up the sacrifice and then flood Heaven, perhaps? When you look at this story honestly, well, as they say in Texas, "That dog don't hunt."

Your lack of logic is only second to your lack of understanding the truth.

Jesus suffered to save mankind, he suffered death, humiliation etc; to save mankind.

Let us try again.

You have a family which you love beyond compare.

You breed a type of animal that you love nearly as dearly.

The animal becomes threatened with extinction.

The only way in which to save it is through one of your children being put at risk, however, should the risk be undertaken you could ensure that you could save the child even if things went wrong.

In the background you have an evil devil intent on destroying the animal along with your own family should the animal be destroyed.

Over to you.

Let us try again.

You have a family which you love beyond compare.

You breed a type of animal that you love nearly as dearly.

The animal becomes  threatened with extinction.

The only way in which to save it is through one of your children being put at risk, however, should the risk be undertaken you could ensure that you could save the child even if things went wrong.

In the background you have an evil devil intent on destroying the animal along with your own family should the animal be destroyed.

Over to you.

polyglide wrote:Let us try again.

You have a family which you love beyond compare.

You breed a type of animal that you love nearly as dearly.

The animal becomes  threatened with extinction.

The only way in which to save it is through one of your children being put at risk, however, should the risk be undertaken you could ensure that you could save the child even if things went wrong.

In the background you have an evil devil intent on destroying the animal along with your own family should the animal be destroyed.

Over to you.

If one could ensure that one could save their child if things went wrong, then one wouldn't be making the 'ultimate sacrifice'.