Could differences over the EU end the Tory/Lib Dem coalition?

Those of us who can’t wait to see the end of this hybrid, sleaze-ridden and incompetent government have been heartened by the latest squabbles over the EU. 81 Tories defied Cameron in a Commons vote, while the Lib Dem promise of an in/out referendum on the EU has gone the same way as their pledges on student tuition fees and opposition to VAT increases. Meanwhile, Gove has announced on the radio that the Tories are determined to repatriate powers from the EU, while Clegg has ruled that idea out completely, saying that a “smash and grab raid” to claw back powers handed to Brussels would never happen while he was Deputy PM:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2053750/Could-pro-European-Lib-Dems-swallow-reduction-Brussels-power-all.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

As Kiran Stacey has written for ‘The Financial Times’:-
"Nick Clegg’s view on repatriation of powers is that the UK’s national interest is best served by developing a reformed, competitive, open and productive European economy. That should be the focus of any future EU discussions. For the moment, the Lib Dems are happy to sit back and watch the Tory Party tear itself apart over Europe……Cameron will be under increasing pressure to push for repatriation of powers, and that is not likely to do much for coalition harmony."

http://blogs.ft.com/westminster/2011/10/number-10-hints-at-repatriating-powers-from-the-eu/#axzz1bvZBMd3g

So what are these powers that the Tories want to repatriate from Brussels? They mostly concern employment legislation, which true to form, the Tories want to scrap in order to help their paymasters. Cameron commissioned a report by venture capitalist Adrian Beecroft, who has branded current employment laws ‘terrible’ and said that they are making it difficult for employers to find the workers they need. Beecroft’s plan – which apparently appeals to both Cameron and Osborne – is to scrap all claims for unfair dismissal, giving firms the right to sack workers without giving them a reason. This idea will be fiercely opposed by the trade unions, and by the Lib Dems, putting even more pressure on this rotten coalition government. We can but hope…..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2053546/Lazy-workers-sacked-explanation-government-told.html

We have already seen the split appearing within the Tory ranks, its the same old thing, they can not and will never agree on Europe. On paper it also looks as if a major split could be appearing between Conservative and the Lib-Dems. We also know that Chopper Clegg has had several oppertunities to fight for Lib-Dem policies and beliefs (as they used to have) , but we also know that when push comes to shove Copper Clegg and Herr Cameron will give the appearance of singing from a very similar Hymn book. I honestly believe that Clegg will only go against his bestest friend, closer to the next Election and only then after securing a a back room deal with Labour offering him his office back, should there be another hung Parliament. We must see this never happens again and keep as much distance from the new enemy as we do from the old, Herr Cameron as much of a shit as he is has done nothing more than expected of him, but as for Clegg, he has sold what principles he may have had down the swanny for nothing other than the trappings of power.
By the way Ivan, Nice Dog.

When a government allows it's mp's to disagree with the cabinet, contrary to the left footies on here is called democracy. Something not seen in this country for a long time.

"Allows". That's a nice word. Hardly appropriate to the circumstances where 81 Tory MPs lift two fingers in the PM's direction, however.

The name for disregarding a three-line whip is not Democracy, it is Rebellion.

Hooray for the real leaders and great statespeople of Europe, and of course I mean Angela Merkel and Nicholas Sarkozy, they have shown leadership and have hopefully put Europe back on a stable course, and though our Tory led government claims to have influenced the outcome, they haven't, not one bit.

A stable economic situation and outlook in the Eurozone is as vital for the UK as it is for Germany or Greece, as Mr Cameron famously said "were all in this together", the frustration for many Lib Dem members and supporters ( the ones that are left ) is how Cameron is perceived across Europe as being a laughing stock and an outsider looking in.

If there is one subject that could potentially split this coalition apart, it has got to be Europe, the two parties are magnetically opposed to one another on this subject.

I feel that Nick Clegg and many Lib Dems within the unholy alliance are keeping quiet, but the rumblings, whisperings and unease are stirring within Tory ranks, personally I think they will get louder and bolder.

I see that Tory supporters are taking the possibility of an end to the coalition quite seriously:-

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/10/how-the-government-could-break-down-over-europe.html

According to ALL polls 2/3rds of the British people want the government to bring back devolved powers from Europe. Kinda flies in the face of your misguided dogmatic defence of the EU don't you think witchy?

So two-thirds of the British people are in favour of a free lunch. Quelle surprise!
Hoping to be in a Club exclusively on our own terms is like a bridegroom returning to live with Mum instead of going on honeymoon.

If ordinary British people were to be given the blunt facts about the EU and the Conservative party, a lot of people would change their minds about supporting not only the Conservatives, but UKIP too.

The simple truth is that both UKIP and the Conservatives wish to roll back EU regulations which affect employees, workers rights and the social chapter, both political parties see diminishing the rights of workers as a good and effective way of driving down costs - at any cost.

There are, at this present moment, dozens of backbench Conservatives champing at the bit, desperate to repatriate laws back to Westminster in order that they can kick millions of low paid people in the teeth, and of course they are egged on by such champions of nastiness as The Daily Mail.

If the basic facts were put to the electorate in a referendum campaign, I think the likes of UKIP would be quite shocked at the outcome, British people are not turkeys that would vote for Christmas.

As is usual in most discussions about anything, Tories are keen to put about scare stories which have no relationship with fact. They pretend that the EU regulations make it simply impossible for a 'poor burdened employer' to dismiss an errant employee - however guilty of misconduct or lack of capability they are.

This is , of course, absolute nonsense. All that is required is to take steps to dismiss fairly and in accordance with the contract of employment, and it is this that so frightens people like Conservative-leaning employers. They would like to be able to commit any breach of contract at will ,while bleating pitifully when employees seek to do the same.

No matter how you cut it , it all adds to the same old story : Tories and their apologists are an especially spiteful and nasty bunch...

Watching David Cameron on the Andrew Marr Show just now made me want to scream. Pretending that our trade with Europe was important when in actual fact Britain buys more from Europe than Europe does from us. If you go on to UKIP website you will see a list of what is wrong with Britain being in the EU.
http://www.ukip.org/

Angela Merkel spoke about the prospect of war when all the time there is a war that on Britain being constantly bullied by Germany and France to pay more and more to the EU even wanting to take charge of the City of London Finance. Once they get full charge of our finances then we really are done for. Britain's Prime Minister was not allowed to attend the meeting on the Euro with the French Prime Minister saying to him "He was sick and tired of Britain moaning over the EU" or words to that effect. He ought to be grateful that Britain pays so much money to the EU even helping other Countries banks, bailing out Greece through the IMF and the EU, bailing out Ireland direct, through the IMF and the EU as well.

David Cameron should tell the EU that the ever increasing immigration, yes even under his leadership, getting our country into further and further debt to help the EU has to stop and that Britain will withdraw from the EU. Indeed, Conservatives getting Britain out of the EU would be poetic justice as it was the Conservatives who took Britain into the EEC, EC and EU signing the Maasricht Treaty which does not allow us to cancel treaties that are detrimental to our country.







.

How very nice to see FRANCES FOX here, another familiar poster from the MSN UK Politics days, I hope you will stay around so that we can disagree with each other, just as we used to - So Welcome aboard.

With reference to your comments, if the UK stopped trading with all the nations where we have a trade defecit, I suspect we would be left doing trade with very few nations.

One of the reasons why we have a trade defecit with much of Europe is due to the fact that many European nations are "producer nations" which is different to a "manufacturing nation", a producer nation supplies raw materials as against manufactured goods, for example the UK cannot produce its own newsprint paper, or enough of our own timber, iron ore comes from Scandanavia, we have no choice other than to import these products from Finland and Sweden.

But I suspect that when it comes to manufactured goods as against raw materials, then the UK will sell more to Scandanavia than those nations export to us, things like JCBs - Nissan cars - defence equipment - pharmacuticals & engineering & mining equipment.

Just because we buy more goods from a nation than we sell to that nation, it does not mean that those exports are somehow irelevant, or not important, they are extremely important to people who work for British Aerospace, Glaxo Smith Kline, Rolls Royce engines or Landrover.

Welcome indeed to Frances Fox. Discussion will be all the healthier for being balanced.

Recent events in Westminster, or to put it more accurately, within the Tory Party, have pushed UKIP into the forefront of the debate over Europe. Opinions have been expressed elsewhere in this forum which support the idea of re-examining our Nation's role within a likely Federal Europe.
As usual, most Brits want to have their cake and eat it too.

Welcome to Frances Fox, lovely to hear from you.


Ivan wrote "for example the UK cannot produce its own newsprint paper, or enough of our own timber,"


That is correct, because it was the Tories who sold off all the Scottish Estates to their rich Continental, Cosmopolitan Friends - check out the massive Mar Estate, owned by a Swiss, and who will let no one near the place - not even the Forestry Commission who had plantations on that property!
The Gestetner Paper Factory in Clackmannan is no more, the only wood from Scandinavia coming into Perth Harbour now is for building!

Tories caused the problem
Tories moan about the problem
Tories hope no-one notices (mind, Liebour are no better, and had the time and wherewithall to do something about it)

It was very good to get a nice welcome to Cutting Edge. Thank you very much. I missed the MSN Boards but glad to communicate with you on Cutting Edge. Cheers. Frances Fox.

Extracts from an article by Ray North:-

"A year and a half in power and any notion that Cameron was the leader of a sane and rational party that embraced compassionate conservatism has been well and truly destroyed. First there was austerity programme; then there was the reform of the benefit system and in particular Incapacity Benefit; then we had the dismantling of the NHS, the introduction of Free Schools and the reform of Legal Aid, and next we saw the lunatics calling for a referendum on membership of the EU. Perhaps topping the lot in terms of cold-hearted callousness is the news that a senior Tory donor has urged an end to the right of an employee to make a claim for unfair dismissal against their employer.

The current laws concerning unfair dismissal do not stop employers from sacking staff, people are still sacked every day up and down the land. All the laws do is ensure that the employers do it properly and according to a fair and consistent policy, and that employees have a fair and independent recourse if they have a grievance……The most successful economy in Europe at present is the German economy, which is based upon a system and culture of workers’ councils and employment rights that are the envy of any modern society. The workers and the bosses in Germany are not involved in some kind of internecine warfare, they both realise that, if they are to thrive, they must both co-exist in harmony."

Wouldn’t that be a better way of going about things?

And could the Tory plan to abolish the concept of unfair dismissal hasten the end of this rancid government?

For the full article:-
http://www.allthatsleft.co.uk/2011/10/what-a-shock-the-tories-turn-their-guns-on-lazy-workers/

Ivan, I wonder if German's economy is so good because they take trade away from other countries like trying to take over Bombardier from Britain, admittedly Bombarder is a Canadian owned business but it does give our people jobs. Why did the government allow Germany to take over the replacement of British Military uniforms only then for them to sub contract it to Turkey, probably getting a portion of the money Turkey makes from this trade.

I can remember my Dad saying many years ago that the next world war will be all about money and believe he was right.

To my mind, Germany wants to control Britain and is doing a good job of it with the help of the French making this country borrow more and more money getting our country into debt. Britain cannot afford to give billions away but of course our so called government allow it to happen being so subervient to the demands of the EU Commission. Look at the way England is devided into regions without it's own government in Westminster and of course despite Cameron's promise to have only
English MPs to govern England' has done nothing at all about it.

Germany wants to take over the City of London Finance and they probably will therefore winning the war against Britain .

Hello Frances. I don't doubt that there are all sorts of reasons for Germany's economic success, not least because it started again from scratch with modern industries and American finance after 1945.

However, the point here is that having good employment rights hasn't damaged the German economy, and their citizens really are "all in this together". It shows that the arguments put forward by this Tory donor Beecroft - and supported by Cameron and Osborne - are just spurious, and so typical of the class warfare which the Tories are waging against British workers.

Therre is a very big difference between the right of centre parties in Germany and the United Kingdom.

In Germany, benefits, minimum wage and workers rights are not regarded as dirty words, whereas in this country they are.

The German CDU ( Angela Merkels party ) puts as much importance on sound economics as they do on social responsibility, something that could hardly be said about the Conservative Party here.

The Germans would never contemplate abandoning the European Convention on Human Rights, or any measures that infringe upon an employees minimum statutory rights, meanwhile our government is stripping those rights away as we speak.

The Conservative party here is too focused on ideology and political dogma, they simply cannot accept that sometimes IT IS in the interests of the country if some things are owned, run and controled by the state, and they cannot accept that to leave everything to market forces with as little regulation as possible is not good for those that get in the way.

Capitalism without social responsibility = The British economy under the Conservatives.

QUOTE: Capitalism without social responsibility = The British economy under the Conservatives.

I think there may be an extra (lesser?) dimension to British businessmen, who are really not always very good at managing staff - of whom they often seem to be frightened. Too often, when there is any kind of dispute, the Management's reaction in this Country is to cast around for a pointed stick rather than negotiate a settlement.

Quote : "British businessmen, who are really not always very good at managing staff - of whom they often seem to be frightened."

How I agree with that. And so often it is getting the simple things wrong which leads them into unnecessary difficulties from which they can never recover.

My experience over the years of assisting those who have approached me is that a little commonsense application goes a very long way - the client seems to believe there is some mystique which has been applied when , in reality, they could have done just the same - only much cheaper - if only they had (a) thought calmly first, and (b) been prepared to set aside their macho desire for instant dominance.

But who's complaining...?!

Gather ye rosebuds ...........

Hello people, I wondered where some of you got to.

Got your message caring lady, and I missed you Often Wrong.

Hello Feenix, nice to meet you on here - on the old MSN board I was Vectra, changed the car - how original is that??

astra wrote:Hello Feenix, nice to meet you on here - on the old MSN board I was Vectra, changed the car - how original is that??

Hi Vectra, I recall you. Nice to see (read) you are here to.

Extracts from an article by John Kampfner:-

"With metronomic predictability, Cameron is paralysed by the issue that all but destroyed his predecessors. The narrative is depressingly the same. Britain stands on the sidelines, carping and snorting, pleading to be involved and yet refusing to engage constructively.

As in Major's time, as with the string of hapless Conservative leaders while Labour was in power, Cameron is unable to break the stranglehold of his party's Eurosceptics at Westminster. The best he can do is to channel their venom towards the Continent in order to blame the Germans and French for the UK's economic woes. The issue is putting considerable strain on the Coalition, but Nick Clegg is treading warily. The polyglot Deputy Prime Minister reads the tabloids and sees the opinion polls.

The unpalatable truth is that the UK relies to an unhealthy degree on a sector that acted so recklessly, and could do so again. Cameron has little choice but to defend the banks (his likening of the Tobin Tax to a tax on French cheese was particularly crass) because they are pretty much all we've got. But it goes beyond necessity. What particularly concerns the Lib Dems is that a man whose only experience outside politics was to spin for major corporations instinctively sees Britain's economic crisis as cyclical rather than structural. In his mind, once the banks have been restored to health, all will be fine, hence his resistance to any move against them from Europe."

For the full article:-
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24012308-the-pm-lectures-europe-to-conceal-his-lack-of-vision.do

SO!


How much MORE money should the Great British TAX PAYER throw at the out of date Continental Gas (Money) Guzzler that Europe has become?

Could differences over the EU end the Tory/Lib Dem coalition?

The interesting statistic will be how many Tory VOTERS follow their true convictions and choose to back UKIP which is at least united in purpose, if not the means of achieving that end.

What everyone must consider is that the Conservatives are reigned in and restrained from persuing many policies because of the coalition with the Liberal Democrats, and Europe is no exception, it therefore begs the question "what agenda would the Conservatives be following if they had a majority" ?

And the answer is realy quite straight forward - for a start off the European Convension on Human Rights would be straight out of the window, as would things like minimum workers rights, employment protection, working time directives and the rights of individuals to take on governments and big business.

The way I see things, this coalition is bad enough, but if the Conservatives were let off the lead held by the Lib Dems then god forbid, it would be a return to the undiluted version of Nasty Conservative Government.

Absolutely, witchfinder, and an explanation for the British Public's response at the last election, which was to declare a plague on all the politicians' houses.

The Lib-Dems may live to regret their decision to circumvent the declared will of the electorate.

The next General Election is now likely to be fought around the single issue of continued British membership of the EU. Not before time. It will be interesting to see the -philes and -phobes coming out of the closet.

Cameron and Hague have told us that "Clegg was at the end of the telephone" while Cameron was doing his so-called negotiating Flashman-style. However, Clegg claims that he was awakened at 4.00am and told of what Cameron had "achieved".

Could somebody in the Cabinet be telling porkies? Surely not?

Perhaps the sandals beard and nut-loaf grassroots Liberals are becoming restive about what is being done in their name.

Extracts from an article by John Kampfner:-

"One of the great fears among Lib Dem MPs is that their best pitch at the next general election would be: we made the Tories a little less nasty. Now they will struggle to claim even that small prize, as the UK drifts into miserable isolation.

The Europhobes hold sway in every corner of the Conservative Party. They have one simple goal – withdrawal from the EU. They don’t hide their aims, indeed are proud of them. They cling to a romantic notion of the bulldog island trading with the Chinese and fighting the good fight with the Americans. They refuse to see that the more Britain goes it alone inside Europe, the less its voice is heard outside Europe.

Throughout the currency crisis, the default position of British ministers was to be haughty and rude – a combination of ‘not my problem’ and public schoolboy-style insults about foreigners. Leaving aside considerations such as manners, this was not designed to increase the effectiveness of the British negotiating position. As ever, Cameron thought he could glide over the detailed planning.

Europeans are happy to point out that – for all the many mistakes they have made in the creation of the Euro and dealing with the crisis – it is not as if the Brits have much to brag about. Our economy is under-performing compared to a number of northern EU states.

Clegg needs to ask himself a difficult question: did he come into politics to be part of perhaps the most diplomatically-inept and Euro-hostile government in modern British history?"

For the full article:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/john-kampfner-silent-liberal-democrats-are-left-on-the-sidelines-6275039.html

What makes me cross with Clegg is him saying "We will loose jobs" From begining to present Britain has lost jobs through being in the 'EU. Remember Germany got the Contract for Bombardier recently. France does not pay as much as Britain to the EU. They cheat on the CAP. Besides why should any country obey Germany and France to the detriment of their nation but they get what they want.

The By-election result today suggests that the General Public are more than happy to recognise the Conservative Party as the natural home of anti-European protest.

OW.....Amazing that Labour won their 'safe seat'.....big surprise all round hey....Doh!!!

Yes it is of course no surprise, Labour should of and did win, What the crowing is about is the 8.6% swing FROM CONSERVATIVE, and I fully believe we will have a whole load more of Labour crowing in the future...Doh!!!

Feltham & Heston is not a safe Labour seat, the previous majority was only about 4,600. In fact it’s a seat that the Tories would need to win to get an overall majority in Parliament (perish the thought). Yesterday saw an 8.6% swing to Labour and an increased majority, despite a much lower turnout. Tory friends in the media (who last week conned a lot of people into believing that Cameron actually achieved something at the EU summit) will try to play down the result, but I’m sure Labour would settle for a swing of that magnitude in the next election. Bring it on!