Women are religion’s longest running victims

First topic message reminder :

Should man rule over women for women’s own good?


Scriptures, and other myth’s, say that God determined that men should rule over women. This gives form, --- in a demographic sense, ---- to our common and society, and says that our demographic pyramid should have a hierarchical shape and or form. This initiates tension and has God demonizing woman, as well as any notion of female equality with man.

His motive must be for the good of women. Somehow!
After all, sanctity of the family is one of the main points of morality.

God was arguably right for his time. Think in the barbaric way. Below the belt. Thank God that time is almost past. Women in our modern world do not need man’s dubious ape like help. I hope you agree. Be honest now with yourself be you male or female.

Men have dominated women long enough I think. To give them equality would be justice.

What do you think?
What would real men do?
What would real women demand?
Do men and women have what it takes to be free?

Justice under law should be gender and age neutral, with limits, but with a good spirit of assuring equality. We do not administer that justice. We only give it lip service. Men are not walking their talk. Neither are women.

In Gods timocracy, a place of government in which love of honor is the ruling principle. All honors go to the Queen and her children. A king’s first responsibility is to insure the veneration of his queen. Honor demands it. He accepts this burden and pleasure wisely. The Queen, as the Beta archetype is the life of the kingdom. The archetypal king’s duty is to raise woman’s position. That means that all men have the same duty. That of not denying women equality and elevating her.

Men. Be good kings. You are making good just men look bad. Step up.
God wills it.

Women. Be good queens and demand what is yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez6wfJWVCeI&feature=player_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iMBUoxLOmA


Regards
DL

Complimenting a poster is bad now. Oh well.

Regards
DL

Greatest I am wrote:-
Mohamed and his God are gay

Point taken, but I hope for your sake you don't end up on a wanted list with Salman Rushdie.  

This thread seems to have drifted a long way from its subject.  

Ivan wrote:This thread seems to have drifted a long way from its subject.  

I agree. But that is the case in the vast majority of cases.  

Regards
DL

Women are religion’s longest running victims, because the omens never were good. Christ's companions at the Last Supper were all male, as were all those crucified with him. Most of Christian history was recorded by monks, or clerks of a similar category. The power enjoyed by church leaders ensured that alpha males would reserve that to themselves, and by definition church architects and masons were all men, leaving only floral decoration of a church's interior to women. Even convents, nominally under the leadership of an abbess, would have been subject to oversight by a male bishop. In other religions, women do not even worship alongside their menfolk.

Which leads one to wonder what the hell is wrong with Western women who pray with men who do not respect them as equals.

Regards
DL

" The women in your family deserve to be first class citizens"
" Men. Christians, Catholics, and Muslims. Free your women. It's time. Man up."
Going back to the opening post, and what GIa said. As always he has gone over the top, because do all Men, Christians, Catholics, and Muslims, need to free their women?
No I don't believe so, and if most posters on the thread thought about it, they would not believe so either.

stuart torr wrote:" The women in your family deserve to be first class citizens"
" Men. Christians, Catholics, and Muslims. Free your women. It's time. Man up."
Going back to the opening post, and what GIa said. As always he has gone over the top, because do all Men, Christians, Catholics, and Muslims, need to free their women?
No I don't believe so, and if most posters on the thread thought about it, they would not believe so either.

I think the only mistake was the idea that "all" men need to free their women. Obviously not all men oppress their women. At least not individually.

On a societal level, however, even some Western nations need some work - though nothing in the West can compare to the barbarity going on even within the borders of our allies (i.e. Saudi Arabia). In the United States, a panel of all-male lawmakers needs to stop making contraception and abortion laws on behalf of women - without women receiving an actual voice. This happens again ... and again ... and again. Whenever a committee is formed to discuss female reproductive health, strangely enough, no women are invited to be on this committee.  




I've also noticed that, whenever women are involved in politics - if they make a mistake or are just plain flakes (Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann), it is BECAUSE they are women. When men screw up, it has nothing to do with their gender.

While we've managed to do away with most of the misogynistic laws in the Western world, the attitudes of the people, however, haven't caught up. Not by a long shot. There is still a very strong and prevailing sentiment that women should be nurturing, healing, counseling, and any other "soft" task that needs doing - they have no business in the political or economic arena. There is still a massive under-representation of powerful women in the business world, and the glass ceiling is still very much in play.

You confuse God allowing things to happen as opposed to causing them.

God gave man a free will, he also gave man the rules which would best serve him towards a good and happy life.

You cannot blame God for ther evils of mankind, you blame the actual person responsible for any evil act.

God made a woman to be the companion of man and not to be either a servant or thought less worthy of due consideration in all repects.

Man himself has placed women in certain in catogories not God.

All the ills of mankind are self inflicted and the state of the world indicates he has made a very bad job.

God made a woman to be the companion of man

Aaargh! Women are individuals in their own right! They may choose to be "companions of men", or even "companions of women", but they are not under any obligation to be either.  

That was the mistake I made in my last post, women need their freedom, no matter from which religion they belong.
They have the right to do what they wish, go where they wish.
Work when they want, have their children when they wish.
Things should not just be forced on them, should it folks?

stuart torr wrote:" The women in your family deserve to be first class citizens"
" Men. Christians, Catholics, and Muslims. Free your women. It's time. Man up."
Going back to the opening post, and what GIa said. As always he has gone over the top, because do all Men, Christians, Catholics, and Muslims, need to free their women?
No I don't believe so, and if most posters on the thread thought about it, they would not believe so either.

I am not sure if you have a point or not.

I see two basic types of men as it pertains to this issue, recognizing that Christianity and Islam are the vast majority world wide. The first type will deny women equality and justice. The second, if he believes in justice will grant and fight for the equality of women.

That is all men in the groups stated in my view. If you wish to haggle over the minority that is not mentioned then ------------.

Regards
DL

polyglide wrote:You confuse God allowing things to happen as opposed to causing them.

God gave man a free will, he also gave man the rules which would best serve him towards a good and happy life.

You cannot blame God for ther evils of mankind, you blame the actual person responsible for any evil act.

God made a woman to be the companion of man and not to be either a servant or thought less worthy of due consideration in all repects.

Man himself has placed women in certain in catogories not God.

All the ills of mankind are self inflicted and the state of the world indicates he has made a very bad job.

If you tell your child he has free will and then command he do certain things, does he really have a free will.

Only a fool would think that commands do not annul free will.

==========================

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.


It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

This indicates that Jesus had no choice.

If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?

God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.

This then begs the question.

What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?

Only an insane God. That’s who.

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.

One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g3hU&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXrYzg&feature=related

------------------------

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL  

----------------------------

Evolutionary theology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9

==================

As to your last. Look again for the first time at how well man can do in spite of wasting resources on imaginary Gods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

Regards
DL

stuart torr wrote:That was the mistake I made in my last post, women need their freedom, no matter from which religion they belong.
They have the right to do what they wish, go where they wish.
Work when they want, have their children when they wish.
Things should not just be forced on them, should it folks?

Ask the Christians and Muslims who do believe in forcing women to submit to men via the policies they put in their religions.

Regards
DL

Ask the Christians and Muslims who do believe in forcing women to submit to men via the policies they put in their religions.

Hardly coincidence, religion is a construct of Man.

I agree.

Some, notably Gnostic Christianity, my religion of course,  are worthy of a man's thinking but most of the other myths are not worthy.

We know we are working with myths that we say should be internalized. Literalist do not agree as they are idol worshipers.

Regards
DL

If women are religions longest running victims, the easiest thing to do is scrap religion to make them equal.  

Scrapping religion is a great idea, but it will never happen. Some of us can accept without difficulty that we weren’t on the planet 100 years ago and it didn’t bother us, so why should we be concerned if we won’t be around in another 100 years? But others need religion because it comforts them with the idea that death may not be the end of their journey, it gives them an explanation and a purpose for their existence and guidelines for how to live their lives.

I understand if many people have a need for the first two, but that last point I find particularly sad. In ‘The God Delusion’ (p.227-9), Richard Dawkins sums it up far better than I can:-

“It seems to me to require quite a low self-regard to think that, should belief in God suddenly vanish from the world, we would all become callous and selfish hedonists, with no kindness, no charity, no generosity, nothing that would deserve the name of goodness…….Perhaps naively, I have inclined towards a less cynical view of human nature.  Do we really need policing - whether by God or by each other - in order to stop us from behaving in a selfish and criminal manner?  I dearly want to believe that I do not need such surveillance - and nor, dear reader, do you…..Or did the cynic H. L. Mencken get it right when he tartly observed: ‘People say we need religion when what they really mean is we need police.’”

Somebody once asked me what I thought was the best pop song that I’d heard in my lifetime. I didn’t need to think for more than a couple of seconds before replying:-

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

As I said, a great idea, but it will never happen.  

Ideas are always the best, but getting them to happen.  

stuart torr wrote:If women are religions longest running victims, the easiest thing to do is scrap religion to make them equal.  

Sure. It is easy to scarp religions.   

Great suggestion from one who does not want to think of a real and plausible solution.

Religion is the main peace to work for sure but you forget the aberrant conditioning that has been used against us for 3,000 years.

Regards
DL

Ivan

Take heart. The tipping point cometh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CifaS8fPxG8

All we can do is try to make it sooner. Foolishness is hard to get rid of in a species. Especially under the Noble Lie.

Regards
DL

Is it god, your religion, or earth, that is 3,000 years old then?

"Sure. It is easy to scarp Religions.   "
What's scarp?

I am sure you will dither it out.

Regards
DL

Get a spellchecker   

As usual, the obvious is confused by the illiterate.

A child is given instructions or perhaps orders by it's parents or school teacher etc. this to enable either a task to be undertaken or behaviour to be applicable in a certain situation.

This does not disregard free will.

You can have a perfect machine made and the manufacturer tells you exactly how to maintan it for it to be long lived, if the owner or anyone the owner allows to, or instructs to, deviate from those instructions then you cannot blame the manufacturer.

God gave man the instructions and a free will, any activity man undertook from that point was man's doing, asking or telling a child what is best has nothing whatsoever with free will.

Just as telling it the worst has none either. Right?

Like you shall surely die would mean nothing to a child that knew nothing of death as it has evil implications and the child knew nothing with evil implications.

You say God gave man free will. In Eden is likely what you meant.

Do commands and threats not annul free will.

If you are walking along and a gun is put to your head and you are told that if you continue to walk you will be shot, can you truly say you have a free will left to you?

You can still exercise your will be it is no longer a free will.

Regards
DL

Just shoot and put me out of my misery

polyglide wrote:As usual, the obvious is confused by the illiterate.

A child is given instructions or perhaps orders by it's parents or school teacher etc. this to enable either a task to be undertaken or behaviour to be applicable in a certain situation.

This does not disregard free will.

You can have a perfect machine made and the manufacturer tells you exactly how to maintan it for it to be long lived, if the owner or anyone the owner allows to, or instructs to, deviate from those instructions then you cannot blame the manufacturer.

God gave man the instructions and a free will, any activity man undertook from that point was man's doing, asking or telling a child what is best has nothing whatsoever with free will.

Human will is not free, that's a misnomer in itself, but to claim it is granted by a deity that wants us to make a particular set of choices, but itself possesses omniscience and therefore knows everything that will happen and when is logically inconsistent. Your claim that "God gave man instructions" is entirely spurious as well, humans evolved roughly 100,000 to 200,000 years ago, your god was created by humans just 2-3 thousand years ago, so how many humans have ever even heard of these instructions? How many humans since then believe these instructions and this deity is the right one from the thousands that humans have created?

At the very least this should make any halfway objective person question how a deity with limitless power and intelligence could be

a) So tardy.
b) Such a poor communicator.

Also I find parent child analogies of this sort pointless, since both parties are human with all the frailties of our limited lifespan and intellect, so to compare that relationship with an omnipotent and omniscient deity is logically absurd.

+ 1

Regards
DL

Who's +1 GIa?

stuart torr wrote:Who's +1 GIa?

This is yours.

https://imgur.com/IBroXK9

Regards
DL

Talking shit again GIa

If a Christian then you are already an idol worshiper of Christ so how many God s do you seek?

Is Christ the Christian God or not? If he is, then who do you seek other than Christ?

Regards
DL

I hope you are not suggesting GIa that I am a christian in your last post by any chance are you? my you could not be forther from the truth honestly.

Are all "religious" discussions destined inevitably to become personal spats?

No OW, but GIa wherever I am always seems to have a go at me, so I cannot let him get away with it.

Free will is open to all.

Opportunities are different for most but those that are, are either accepted or not by free will.

Influences may make a difference to the path taken but that does not deny free wiil.

Hello P.G. I hope your health is holding up well, I did not quite understand your post except that we all have free will, but surely it is how we use that free will whether in a good or bad way that makes it different?

I could not agree more, we all have choices throughout our life, however, some are put to greater tests than others and that is where faith comes in.

Very true PG.
Only it is those with belief that have the faith that is put to the the test is it not?
But even those without belief try their best to use that free will in the right way.

Are you not interested now PG after those few posts friend? but you did not say why you are not posting much? or how your health was? I do hope you have sent a message to Ivan, take care anyway, thinking of you. Stu.

polyglide wrote:Free will is open to all.

Opportunities are different for most but those that are, are either accepted or not by free will.

Influences may make a difference to the path taken but that does not deny free wiil.

That would include the church so why do they not repent and start preaching that women are equal to men and drop their ---- he shall rule over you misogynistic attitude?

Regards
DL