Will the cruel Tory welfare reforms save any money?

My personal opinion is that the current spate of tory reforms to the benefit system are cruel, regressive, and worst of all won't save money (the alleged intention).



In a supposedly modern civilised country one would think housing would be considered a human right.......rather than simply an investment / a chance to make a fast buck.

I note there is talk of a yacht for the biggest benefit claimee of them all. I note over £10billion has been spent on the olympics. I note £32billion is being spent on a high speed rail link (london-birmingham) - this will shave, a no doubt absolutely vita,l 32mins off the journey (essential??!!!) and be used by a miniscule % of the UK population.

How about investing this money in affordable social housing instead? Or do government no longer care to invest in those they view as peasants and serfs?

The tories efforts to turn the nation against those unfortunate enough to find themselves unemployed via vile smears, and an insidious propaganda campaign, are reminiscent of Nazi germany's propaganda campaign against the jews.

Iain Duncan Smith is a disgusting human being and has blood on his hands.

Instead of kicking the weakest targets that can't defend themselves....maybe the Bullingdon bullies should try picking on somebody their own size.....like the bankers, or benefit leeching corporations like Tescos.

They currently resemble a 20st thug stamping on a little girls head.

Welfare is essential and if we are to remain a civilised country we owe it to ourselves to provide for those less fortunate; unless we want to see people starving and homeless turning into savages.

The biggest burden on the UK in recent times has not been the unemployed.....welfare is not a burden - it is an essential expense in a civilised nation.

The biggest burden, and the cause of much unemployment, has been the rich greedy bankers who have cost this country, and us taxpayers, untold £billions in order to benefit a few. They have placed the real burden on the UK.

Very well said Sicky, perfectly put.

sickchip wrote:-
The Tories efforts to turn the nation against those unfortunate enough to find themselves unemployed via vile smears, and an insidious propaganda campaign, are reminiscent of Nazi Germany's propaganda campaign against the Jews. Iain Duncan Smith is a disgusting human being and has blood on his hands.

Absolutely. In my opinion, the Tories have become velvet glove fascists, demonising a section of the population, just as Hitler did. Disability hate crimes have increased (along with crime generally), and nothing was more chilling than when Duncan Smith said on television one morning: "Work makes you free".

Interesting that this government is determined to reduce the amount of benefits families can receive, but when it come to limiting the amount company bosses receive, in pay and bonus's, the decission is 'above their pay grade' even in companies where the taxpayer is a the major shareholder......

I must be stupid because i fail to see why people can earn fat bonuses for failure, on top of rather fat wages. Instead of a bonus they should be taking a pay cut.

The Tories have public support for their benefits cap because £26,000 a year sounds like a hell of a lot of money. What has to be remembered is that in parts of London, the rent for a flat with two bedrooms can be as much as £1,400 per month, which is nearly £17,000 a year.

The usual Tory response to that is the people on benefits should move to a cheaper area. But then if they have a low-paid job in one of those more expensive areas, they can hardly be expected to pay fares (recently raised again by Boris Johnson) travelling from some distance away, just to do poorly remunerated work.

So if you cap benefits and drive people away (and disrupt their children's education in the process), there will be jobs which nobody can do because they can't afford to live nearby, and a form of apartheid will be created, with rich and poor kept well apart, reminiscent of what used to go on in South Africa.

If this foul government had a shred of decency, it would introduce rent capping rather than benefit capping, and Duncan Smith might have a little more credibility if the hypocrite hadn't claimed £94,000 in expenses.

jackthelad wrote:I must be stupid because i fail to see why people can earn fat bonuses for failure, on top of rather fat wages. Instead of a bonus they should be taking a pay cut.

That's because they are also the wagemasters deciding who gets paid what.

Rather like a fat boy owning the cake - he'll take it all for himself and all that will escape is the few crumbs he'll spill for ants to fight over.

Why blame low paid workers, or the unemployed, for not being able to afford rents in a ridiculously inflated housing market? They didn't encourage the housing market to increase house prices beyond the reach of most........mmm who was responsible for that?

People still need a roof over their heads so build affordable social housing or shut up and pay private landlords housing benefit at the inflated rates the government, banks, and property owners encouraged. Those unfortunate enough to have to claim aren't responsible for the greed of the market.

In a supposedly modern civilised country one would think housing would be considered a basic human right.......rather than simply an investment / a chance to make a fast buck.


This problem has been brought about by greedy bastards happy to watch house prices inflate beyond the reach of the majority.

If the average house price had been kept at three times the average salary we wouldn't have this situation now - but no middle incomers were all loving it a few years back with their tales of I paid £50,000 for it two years ago and now I'm selling it for £175,000. Now all the middle incomer/daily mail types with mortgages whining about the levels of housing benefit being paid only have their greedy little selves to blame.....did they imagine there would be no comeback and that property prices could carry on rising without consequence? They helped create the false boom in property; and it is only right their taxes should be putting a roof over the heads of those less fortunate, or who have fallen on hard times.

I love the phrase 'Affordable housing'........does it mean housing that is affordable to rent or does it mean houses that are affordable to buy.....More often than not it means the later not the former..

When new housing developments are announced there always seems to be more houses for sale than rent in them even though it is now being acknowledged that the age at which people will be able to buy is getting later.....

The only people who benefit from these developments are private landlords who can make money from the high rents.

Ivan wrote:

sickchip wrote:-
The Tories efforts to turn the nation against those unfortunate enough to find themselves unemployed via vile smears, and an insidious propaganda campaign, are reminiscent of Nazi Germany's propaganda campaign against the Jews. Iain Duncan Smith is a disgusting human being and has blood on his hands.

Absolutely. In my opinion, the Tories have become velvet glove fascists, demonising a section of the population, just as Hitler did. Disability hate crimes have increased (along with crime generally), and nothing was more chilling than when Duncan Smith said on television one morning: "Work makes you free".

I am glad Im not the only person thinking this.

Hi Ivanhoe.... Yes, we already know each-other !

Although I think that it was amazing that Duncan-Smith had the ignorance to use THOSE words I am not surprised that he did. As has been said before: "Many a slip twixt cup and lip" or maybe it was just a Freudian slip eh ?

As I said in my introduction - in the General Discussion sub-forum - I will now just go away and do a lot of reading of the site before I am tempted to jump in too deeply.

Just a wee note to let you know - Ivanhoe - that I am finally here !

Regards....

Papaumau

It is my very great fortune to be almost entirely directly unaffected by all the many heartless activitites which the Tories and their LibDem conspirators are currently inflicting upon the less well-off in Britain. From the comfort of my position I can only assume that Cameron & Co consider they may have only a limited time to indulge in their customary cruelty and are determined to enjoy it as much as possible while the opportunity lasts. We have seen unpleasant Tory governments before, but I doubt there has been any to match the depths to which the present sneering and poisonous collection of vermin are prepared to stoop.

Still, that's Conservatism for you....

Cameron & Co consider they may have only a limited time to indulge in their customary cruelty and are determined to enjoy it as much as possible while the opportunity lasts.

Still, that's Conservatism for you....

Hello Phil


Your words above are so true. My worry is - How difficult is it going to be to UNDO the damage that is being done and is GOING to be done to the country by this lot?

Coal can never be dug up again in the North of England - either in Wigan OR Newcastle Sunderland. Ships can NEVER be built again on the Rivers Tyne or Wear! All this by Tory EDICT written into LAW of the LAND by the Torys and stipulated by Strasbourg. The Railway sell off has been so tightly wrapped in legalese that is could never be rescinded, and now the changes to the NHS will be watertight.

Do the Torys NEVER stand in front of the mirror?

Quote : " Do the Torys NEVER stand in front of the mirror?"

If you were that ugly , Mr A , would you risk it...?

This morning McDonalds fast food chain announced that it was creating 2,500 new jobs this year, yesterday Asda proclaimed that they were to create around 5000 new jobs, the Asda announcement got "the nod of approval from David Cameron".

So what will this actualy mean ?

It means that there will be around 7,500 new jobs created, virtualy all of them at National Minimum Wage rate, a large proportion will be part time jobs which will be ideal for young people, students and as a households second job, supporting the main bread winner.

The small proportion of these jobs that will be full time will provide a gross income of about £240 ( Take home approx £190.00 ) based on 40 hours.

A mortgage for anyone on these kind of wages is completely out of the question, saving towards a deposit for a house / flat is also impossible.

The average rent for a two bedroom house / flat is £80.00, in the area where I live its more like £100.00 and in many places its more.

These kind of jobs are ok, but they are not going to do anything towards stopping a reliance on welfare and state help because you simply cannot live on these wages unless you live with parents or go into house-share.

These kind of jobs will make no difference to growth because the average pay in these jobs will leave little or no disposable income, they are low paid and unskilled positions with little trainning and few prospects of promotion.

Phil Hornby wrote:It is my very great fortune to be almost entirely directly unaffected by all the many heartless activitites which the Tories and their LibDem conspirators are currently inflicting upon the less well-off in Britain. From the comfort of my position I can only assume that Cameron & Co consider they may have only a limited time to indulge in their customary cruelty and are determined to enjoy it as much as possible while the opportunity lasts. We have seen unpleasant Tory governments before, but I doubt there has been any to match the depths to which the present sneering and poisonous collection of vermin are prepared to stoop.

Still, that's Conservatism for you....

Errr, no, that's right wing Torysm for you. There is a big difference between the two.

It's kinda weird that a majority of the working class (who Labour are supposed to represent) and the middle classes support these welfare reforms...In fact, do the Labour party support welfare reform? I think they have said they do

Maybe its just you lot here who are out of touch and need to wake up from you 1970's socialist dream

Papaumau wrote:Hi Ivanhoe.... Yes, we already know each-other !

Although I think that it was amazing that Duncan-Smith had the ignorance to use THOSE words I am not surprised that he did. As has been said before: "Many a slip twixt cup and lip" or maybe it was just a Freudian slip eh ?

As I said in my introduction - in the General Discussion sub-forum - I will now just go away and do a lot of reading of the site before I am tempted to jump in too deeply.

Just a wee note to let you know - Ivanhoe - that I am finally here !

Regards....

Papaumau

Hello Pap, and welcome to this site. I am sure that your intellectual and intelligent postings will be much apprecated by the regulars on here, not refering to myself, because I am still relativelly new.

"....you lot here who are out of touch and need to wake up from you 1970's socialist dream...."

Are you gettin an edited version of these pages, blue? This message-board reflects an all-too-realistic view of such matters.

It's hard to avoid a suspicion that current Government policy is entirely designed to punish the less fortunate members of society, for reasons of Tory dogma.

blueturando wrote:It's kinda weird that a majority of the working class (who Labour are supposed to represent) and the middle classes support these welfare reforms...In fact, do the Labour party support welfare reform? I think they have said they do

Maybe its just you lot here who are out of touch and need to wake up from you 1970's socialist dream

Bluey, Contrary to the popular myth you espouse on behalf of others. Britain does not need welfare reform. What Britain needs is the national renewal of a universial cheap to rent social housing programme Together with an industry and manufacturing base, with a decent minimum wage.

Then people will be able to have reasonable long term job security and able to pay their own way. Naturally IDS and his mob, would never do this because it would mean raising taxes on the rich and putting people into real jobs.

The Tory's are full of shxt, and will always be, because they are arrogant, not giving a fig for the ordinary man and woman in this country.

It's kinda weird that a majority of the working class...and the middle classes support these welfare reforms...

Yes, as I stated above, but maybe it's because the full implications haven't been explained to them. Much of the benefit goes straight from the social services to the private landlords who are charging exorbitant rents. If rents were controlled, especially in large cities such as London, the bill for benefits would fall.

Then there is the social aspect. Who is going to become a school cleaner or dinner lady in inner city schools if they can't afford to live within a 20 or 30 mile radius?

This government does not want real jobs in Britain........

When they managed to gain power one of their first acts was to refuse the request from Sheffield ForgeMasters in for a LOAN of £80 million to be used to retool for making components for the Nuclear industry.......

Maybe its just you lot here who are out of touch

If you want 'out of touch' you should hear what Tory Treasury minister Chloe Smith said this afternoon: "Poverty is not about income".

I wonder how many of Cameron's cronies, such as Rebekah Brooks and Jeremy Clarkson, live in 'poverty' in Chipping Norton? Does this give new meaning to the expression "poor little rich kid"?

It means that there will be around 7,500 new jobs c

There are no jobs in the piece that are going to bring money into the country.

These jobs depend on money being in the country and the population being able to swill it around! this is of no benefit hell, even the new workers are going to feel the pinch!

What Britain needs is the national renewal of a universial cheap to rent social housing programme Together with an industry and manufacturing base, with a decent minimum wage.

Now I agree with that 100%

Then there is the social aspect. Who is going to become a school cleaner or dinner lady in inner city schools if they can't afford to live within a 20 or 30 mile radius?

Leaving out London, where else in the country would this apply?

The Tory's are full of shxt, and will always be, because they are arrogant, not giving a fig for the ordinary man and woman in this country

I think you will find a majority of 'ordinary' men and women in this country are a little fed up with Carte Blanche welfare and would like to see at least some reform. There is a lot of it that just doesn't make sense.

But!!! I am also in favour of this government trying to do a lot more to make tax evaders, especially big business to pay their fair share and I agree they are not doing enough here. I was also disapppointed by Vince Cable and his 'pay grade' comment, which was a cop out to me

blueturando wrote:

What Britain needs is the national renewal of a universial cheap to rent social housing programme Together with an industry and manufacturing base, with a decent minimum wage.

Now I agree with that 100%

Then there is the social aspect. Who is going to become a school cleaner or dinner lady in inner city schools if they can't afford to live within a 20 or 30 mile radius?

Leaving out London, where else in the country would this apply?

The Tory's are full of shxt, and will always be, because they are arrogant, not giving a fig for the ordinary man and woman in this country

I think you will find a majority of 'ordinary' men and women in this country are a little fed up with Carte Blanche welfare and would like to see at least some reform. There is a lot of it that just doesn't make sense.

Have you ever lived on welfare bluey ?

Yes I have, but in all honesty it was when I was 17/18 and still living at home, so I am not going to make up a sob story for you because I was ok. Couldn't find work so signed off and came to Jersey for the summer, stayed here ever since (apart from 2 years backpacking around the world)

Ivanhoe I am not talking a penalising the most needy...nobody is. I know you all want to belive the Tories are but that's not the truth. Capping welfare at 26k is not an attack on the 'most needy'

Withdrawing Child benefit for higher earners is not an attack on the most needy, it just makes sense. You are taking tax money from poorer people to give to higher earners just because they have kids.....Kind of the opposite of socialist really

blueturando wrote:Yes I have, but in all honesty it was when I was 17/18 and still living at home, so I am not going to make up a sob story for you because I was ok. Couldn't find work so signed off and came to Jersey for the summer, stayed here ever since (apart from 2 years backpacking around the world)

Ivanhoe I am not talking a penalising the most needy...nobody is. I know you all want to belive the Tories are but that's not the truth. Capping welfare at 26k is not an attack on the 'most needy'

Withdrawing Child benefit for higher earners is not an attack on the most needy, it just makes sense. You are taking tax money from poorer people to give to higher earners just because they have kids.....Kind of the opposite of socialist really

Bluey, I believe in a welfare state thant binds our society together, much like the European and Scandinavian models.

This is why I believe in Child Benefit going to multi millionaires because they pay in for it. I agree that Chrildren should be looked after care of everybodies taxes when working. I also believe in as well funded and non means tested welfare state, where everybody pays in when working, to get out when unemployed, much like the European and Scandinavian countries.

I dont believe in Britain's welfare State being any more meaner and stringently means tested than it already is, because our welfare State is based on low income tax, wheras the EU and Scandivanian models are based on high tax.

The problem with the British right wing Tory's is that they manage to convince the ga ga land sheep amongst the British, that loads of people are sitting at home loafing around on welfare, and that is as small minded as anybody can get.

Factually the right of the Tory party in Government always manage to create by policy enough unemployed people "as a price worth paying".

Leaving out London, where else in the country would this apply?

Blue, it takes in any metropolitan area in the UK. Here in the North, people are living in Northumberland to work in Newcastle upon Tyne. Living in Derwenside and Weardale to work in Durham City. Sunderland has workers for nissan coming over 25 miles to work.

Why

The rents and council tax in Northumberland and County Durham are much much cheaper than in Tyne and Wear Metropolitan Area and the price of a house in the stix is up now, more reasonable.

For argument's sake, if I had not been pensioned off with ill health, I would have upped sticks to Northumberlnd and converted a barn. Somewhere like the derelict villages of Clinton or Roddam. (And Yes, the ancestors of those two famous people came from thos respective hamlets)

Withdrawing Child benefit for higher earners is not an attack on the most needy, it just makes sense. You are taking tax money from poorer people to give to higher earners just because they have kids.....

blue. I believe it's easier and cheaper to give out benefits such as the child allowance and pensioner fuel payments to everyone, rather than create more bureaucracy with means tests (and the possibility of fraudulent claims). Then you reclaim that money from higher earners by having a top rate of Income Tax of say 55% or 60% (which applied for nine years under Thatcher). Osborne's plan, under which a couple each earning £40k will keep the child allowance, while one parent working and earning £45k will lose it, doesn't make sense at all.

If you're worried about poorer people subsidising the better off, campaign for a minimum wage of £8 and a starting tax threshold of say £15k, along with moves to make Philip Green and Vodaphone pay tax in this country or have all their assets nationalised without compensation.

Ivan wrote:

Withdrawing Child benefit for higher earners is not an attack on the most needy, it just makes sense. You are taking tax money from poorer people to give to higher earners just because they have kids.....

blue. I believe it's easier and cheaper to give out benefits such as the child allowance and pensioner fuel payments to everyone, rather than create more bureaucracy with means tests (and the possibility of fraudulent claims). Then you reclaim that money from higher earners by having a top rate of Income Tax of say 55% or 60% (which applied for nine years under Thatcher). Osborne's plan, under which a couple each earning £40k will keep the child allowance, while one parent working and earning £45k will lose it, doesn't make sense at all.

If you're worried about poorer people subsidising the better off, campaign for a minimum wage of £8 and a starting tax threshold of say £15k, along with moves to make Philip Green and Vodaphone pay tax in this country or have all their assets nationalised without compensation.

Precisely Ivan. But Tory's wont increase tax on the rich. But Tories dont mind stealth taxes hitting the poor, I wonder if Blue agreese with that ?

If you're worried about poorer people subsidising the better off, campaign for a minimum wage of £8 and a starting tax threshold of say £15k, along with moves to make Philip Green and Vodaphone pay tax in this country or have all their assets nationalised without compensation.

Again guys, much to your surprise I totally agree with this...all of it!!

have all their assets nationalised without compensation.

Hope Ashcroft is an accidental omission!

In my opinion the Coalition needs to make a 2 sided attack...

1. Make the welfare system fairer (have expalined why) and also deal with people abusing the system. Increase the national minimum wage and take more lower earners out of the tax band to encourage more people to take the jobs being snapped up by eastern europeans ect.

2. Set up an independant body to investigate tax evasion by big business, with harsh and robust penalties for those who are not paying their pay share.


Yes I am Tory and yes I live on a tax haven, but I do not like big business to avoid paying tax anymore than you do. Believe it or not, the same thing goes on here and now we have to pay 5% VAT....Gutted!!!

blueturando wrote:In my opinion the Coalition needs to make a 2 sided attack...

1. Make the welfare system fairer (have expalined why) and also deal with people abusing the system. Increase the national minimum wage and take more lower earners out of the tax band to encourage more people to take the jobs being snapped up by eastern europeans ect.

2. Set up an independant body to investigate tax evasion by big business, with harsh and robust penalties for those who are not paying their pay share.


Yes I am Tory and yes I live on a tax haven, but I do not like big business to avoid paying tax anymore than you do. Believe it or not, the same thing goes on here and now we have to pay 5% VAT....Gutted!!!

Wrong. Incease welfare, and make the payments universial. This way money goes back into the economy when people lose, or change their jobs, and we rid ourselves an an underclass.

Return Manufacturing and Industry to Britain with a minimum wage. Build council housing on a universial scale so people are taken out of the high rent private sector.

Wrong. Incease welfare, and make the payments universial. This way money goes back into the economy when people lose, or change their jobs, and we rid ourselves an an underclass

Lol....Do you seriously think that increasing welfare will encourage people back into work???? If you represent Labours thinking then they are seriously in bother. More money for welfare is taken OUT of the economy in the first place

blueturando wrote:

Wrong. Incease welfare, and make the payments universial. This way money goes back into the economy when people lose, or change their jobs, and we rid ourselves an an underclass

Lol....Do you seriously think that increasing welfare will encourage people back into work???? If you represent Labours thinking then they are seriously in bother. More money for welfare is taken OUT of the economy in the first place

No, your not thinking. Britain needs a manufacturing and Industry base returned. Cutting welfare is frankly, evil.

The two do not go hand in hand Ivanhoe....

Yes the government should seriously invest in a manufacturing base as long as it's not hijacked by militant unions and then made unprofitable again.

Please give me an explanation of what is 'Evil' about the proposed welfare cuts

The cap on benefits will effect the people on several fronts home food and health, but the hardest hit will be the children whose families live in London and surrounding areas is looking likely to set off a chain of major events that will have lasting effects on the children, too be taken from there homes school and friends, that in turn will effect the health of the entire family the stress and strain and the possibility of becoming homeless and all it encompasses ( Bed an Breakfast or Hostels)as we all know there is not enough cheap council houses for every one.

All this will put a strain on the local councils concerned whose budgets have already been sliced and diced and are not capable of handling any more pressure even if councils put these people in a bed & breakfast the full amount may not be paid for by H.B they will have too use some the money given for food in order too have a roof over there heads but will need one or two months rental for a deposit on a flat in the private sector and some private landlords will not entertain if the bread winner is not in employment.

On health the children could become withdrawn and there schooling could suffer leading to failing in education causing them problems in the future with there chances in work and career which in turn could lead them being a burden on the state in the future this is not tax money been well spent its just storing up problems for some later date or another Gov't, Tories claim they are cleaning up the mess left by Labour party but who is going to clean up the mess that they leave behind.

So what is this Gov't going too do start building "WORK HOUSES" to accommodate these homeless people or does it expect people to move where ever this Gov't can palm people off to,any builders out there it may be worth while to keep your ear to the ground for new building contracts to resurrect the old Work Houses.