Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

First topic message reminder :

In my opinion, the UK under our extreme right-wing government is rapidly degenerating into velvet glove fascism.

Like all fascists, Hitler was against trade unions and socialists. Similarly, Michael Gove vilified primary school teachers and dinner ladies, many of whom went on strike for the first time in their lives on 30 November last year, as “militants itching for a fight”. Gove has plans for military cadets in every school (Cameron Youth?) and a return to children sitting in rows reciting lists of kings and queens in history lessons, rather than learning to think. Hitler also realised how important history was to indoctrination when he ordered the mass burning of books. Tories close libraries.

Hitler made sure that he controlled the media. The Tories have cowed the BBC by threats of fragmentation and sharing the licence fee with others, such as Murdoch. The BBC, which was required to be impartial, has become just another mouthpiece for Tory propaganda. As soon as they came to power in 2010, the Tories instructed every minister to repeat over and over again the whopping lie that Labour, not Tory bankers, caused the global credit crisis. We have the repeated lie about everyone in the public sector getting “gold-plated pensions”, when the average is only £5,600 per annum. As Goebbels said: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Cameron has proved over and over again that he’s a pathological liar.

Hitler divided and ruled the German people by scapegoating Jews and gypsies. The Tories are demonising those who receive benefits, one result of which is that disability hate crimes are increasing. Duncan Smith went on breakfast television on 27 May 2010 and made the chilling remark: "Work makes you free". That's an exact translation of the sign which used to hang over the entrances to concentration camps.

The Tories have plans to force 50,000 disabled youth to work for companies such as Sainsbury's and Tesco's unpaid. Cancer patients are being made to undergo work assessments while being treated with chemotherapy, and wounded soldiers are being sacked. (Osborne is willing to take money from the disabled and cancer patients, but not prepared to veto Hester's bonus from the largely state-owned RBS.)

The police are being trained to shoot people with rubber bullets and will be issued with water cannon, yet the Tories were so keen on helping Arab rebels in North Africa. Two unknown Scottish teenagers made a joke on 'Facebook' about organising riots, and they both received four years in jail. A prominent Tory TV presenter (and personal friend of Cameron) made a tasteless joke about murdering trade unionists on prime time television; nothing was done about it and the BBC continue to pay him £1 million a year of our money.

We don't have any concentration camps in the UK, but the principles are the same - propaganda, indoctrination, and divide and rule by demonising a section of the population. While Hitler gassed Jews, the Tories clearly don't care if benefit claimants starve to death. Even payments from the Social Fund, for those in the most desperate need, will no longer be available from job centres but will be at the 'discretion' of local councils, who will not have to ring-fence the money. All the ingredients of fascism are there, but it's just being handed out to us in a more genteel form than Hitler used - in velvet gloves.

We've become desensitised to big numbers when reading about the Chancellor's Budget. Billions here, and Billions there - £98Billion on Old Age Pensions alone in 2013.

A Hospital's debt of a mere £39m could be settled by a Bring-and-Buy Sale in comparison.



http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_pensions_budget_2009_0.html

Hinchingbrooke is most certainly the thin edge of what will become an ever widening wedge, as the Tories will look for any excuse to flog off the entire NHS to their friends and those that donate to the Conservative party.

We all know what is behind Hinchingbrooke and it aint no 39Million debt. It is Tory dogma at work.

I don't get it at all Bobby!

Many many busunesses are operating with debts WELL over £40 million!

British Airports for one,
National Express for two!

Why don't the Bories sell off those two as well.

This Hospital aint solvent, but it aint NOT solvent, and the TAX payers responsibility of bank rolling the place CERTAINLY has NOT diminished.

Hello V Mate. Hospitals are a nessesary service, not a business. What we need to keep sight of, is that NHS hospitals are there for the wellbeing of the population and payed for with public money, for public use, Also if they (remember they have been running the NHS for the past 2 years) where any good at their jobs, why didn’t they simply change the management and or the usage of any hospital having problems. There would be no chance of that as where is the proffit.

It is no different than it was back in Thatcher’s time, she withdrew investment from Our Nationalised Companies, removing any chance of success, sat back and watched them fail, she then sold them off at bargain basement prices, then invested in them with tax payers money as a subsidy, most of which we are still paying. If the subsidies where paid before privatisation, our utilities would still be owned by us. Herr Cameron had a good teacher and is putting everything he has learned to good or should I say bad use.

When these Companies appeared to be failing, A fight was picked with the Unions, and to them went the blame.

The Tory Filth are very quick to take money, but will never take any responsibility.

This discussion board originated on MSN, as many will know. A common theme in that era was "Why didn't the New Labour Party, during thirteen years in power, reverse the damaging policies of the previous Tory governments?"

The answer provided elsewhere is that the Tory Law was framed to make re-Nationalisation prohibitively expensive.

If the current Miliband Opposition wish to pre-empt Tory intentions to trash our NHS they need only announce that when re-elected, Private purchasers of NHS assets will be compensated IN FULL for loss of dividend upon renationalisation. (Over the next hundred years)

bobby wrote:Hinchingbrooke is most certainly the thin edge of what will become an ever widening wedge, as the Tories will look for any excuse to flog off the entire NHS to their friends and those that donate to the Conservative party.

We all know what is behind Hinchingbrooke and it aint no 39Million debt. It is Tory dogma at work.

Did you know that there is another NHS hospital on the brink of being sold off to the private health sector bobby, and this is just the start of it things will go from bad too worse.

When these Companies appeared to be failing, A fight was picked with the Unions, and to them went the blame.

Agreed Bobby'

BUT tell that to the diehard tory followers. They now are as ingrained as ANY of the union work tickets in those industries. Scargill and Red Robbo being cases inpoint!

Unemployement rose by 28,00 in the 3 months leading up to January. This bought the total up to 2.67 million. Dont wory you Tory bastards, only a little bit further and you will beat the previous Tory Governments record of 3.8 million.

Just what has got to happen before the Halfwit Tory sycophants see whats happening. We know That Clegg and his sheeple, will not turn on his Leader Herr Cameron. You just had to see how he relished his role as Government leader on PMQ's today. The man (and I use the term loosly) is obsessed with his minor roll in power and knows he will never be in that position once this unholy alliance tumbles. We are paying dearly for his five minutes of Fame.

Absolutely correct V, and both have since been proven they where right.

bobby wrote:Unemployement rose by 28,00 in the 3 months leading up to January. This bought the total up to 2.67 million. Dont wory you Tory bastards, only a little bit further and you will beat the previous Tory Governments record of 3.8 million.

Just what has got to happen before the Halfwit Tory sycophants see whats happening. We know That Clegg and his sheeple, will not turn on his Leader Herr Cameron. You just had to see how he relished his role as Government leader on PMQ's today. The man (and I use the term loosly) is obsessed with his minor roll in power and knows he will never be in that position once this unholy alliance tumbles. We are paying dearly for his five minutes of Fame.

And here in Scotland bobby the unemployment is higher that the UK average we are at 8.7% while in the rest of the UK is 8.3%, but i know the reason for that it was the same when Thatcher was in power because Scotland does not vote Tory then she got her own back on us by giving us the Poll tax a year before the rest of the UK do you think it will go as high as 3.8 million?

There is up coming elections this May local and Mayoral in Scotland and London and the people of the UK know what is coming and just lets hope that the L/Ds and the Tories get a right nasty shock from the good people of the UK when the results of the elections are known from what I have been hearing the L/Ds are in for loosing quite a few seats and just maybe it will make the L/Ds at the top of the party will maybe get a bad case of DIARRHOEA and pull out of the coalition.

Hi Red.. Yes I can see no reason why the record 3.8 million won't be beaten. If it is not, it will not be due to the amount of people not working, but how they are counted. Back in John (fancy a Curry) Majors time when we did have the 3.8, it was reckoned that the true figure should have been in excess of 5 million (relying on memory). The figures where camouflaged by using the Youth opportunity scheme and putting sacked minors and steel workers on sickness benefit.
As things are I can not see anything this shambolic Government is doing to help the unemployed, in fact they are still finding ways to increase their number. We will not improve until we get growth into the economy, and nothing this lot is doing will do that. They have borrowed more than Labour just to pay for those they put on the dole, and are busying themselves getting the rest of the plebs to pay for it. Until we see a rise in the economy unemployment will continue upwards, and the danger of the long expected double dip recession will become a reality.

I personally think that Herr Cameron and his tosser sidekick Gideon are fully aware they are doing wrong, but it is easier for them to push through their Ideologically based policies whilst they have the excuse we are broke, and are still suffering from “the mess the last Government left”. I mean Red how could they justify what they are doing if we had a thriving economy and most of the population where working.

The Industrial Revolution in Britain gave birth to mechanical processes which required human labour to operate. The bosses built houses around the factories so as to have a steady supply of willing workers who wouldn't have had much choice about where they were going to work.

Although in the 21st.C. labour-intensive manufacturing has given way to the capital-intensive financial sector, there is still a steady requirement for wage-slaves in the Service Industry.

A pool of the unemployed provides a steady stream of applicants from which to fill poorly-paid jobs at unsociable hours.

bobby wrote:Hi Red.. Yes I can see no reason why the record 3.8 million won't be beaten. If it is not, it will not be due to the amount of people not working, but how they are counted. Back in John (fancy a Curry) Majors time when we did have the 3.8, it was reckoned that the true figure should have been in excess of 5 million (relying on memory). The figures where camouflaged by using the Youth opportunity scheme and putting sacked minors and steel workers on sickness benefit.
As things are I can not see anything this shambolic Government is doing to help the unemployed, in fact they are still finding ways to increase their number. We will not improve until we get growth into the economy, and nothing this lot is doing will do that. They have borrowed more than Labour just to pay for those they put on the dole, and are busying themselves getting the rest of the plebs to pay for it. Until we see a rise in the economy unemployment will continue upwards, and the danger of the long expected double dip recession will become a reality.

I personally think that Herr Cameron and his tosser sidekick Gideon are fully aware they are doing wrong, but it is easier for them to push through their Ideologically based policies whilst they have the excuse we are broke, and are still suffering from “the mess the last Government left”. I mean Red how could they justify what they are doing if we had a thriving economy and most of the population where working.

Hi bobby everything you have said is correct but come next month they full truth of what a shower of BACKSTUDS have done when the cuts start to bite then we see the normal people of the UK get really angry which will effect the outcome of all elections then we will see the Tories and the L/Ds run for cover if they can find somewhere to hide.

Scam..er..on and Wimpy Gideon will not care about what there doing wrong all they care about is that Tory party donors are not having to pay for there night at the CASINO because then there party funds would be empty.

I find them to be fascists. No doubt about it.

Well said AT.

WHAT IS FASCISM?????

Is it your interpretation, or do you know of a conclusive definition?

blueturando wrote:WHAT IS FASCISM?????

Is it your interpretation, or do you know of a conclusive definition?

We all have been through the school system and had History lessons so that should have told you what FASCISM IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The best description of fascism is of a regime which bases its fundamental principles on super-nationalism, putting their nation and their people ahead of all others no matter what.

This super-nationalism usualy involves hatred of other countries, other peoples, minorities such as minority religions, gay people, gypsies and people of a minority race, creed or colour.

And why precisely do some people compare the Tories to Fascists ?

Because, the stereotypical Tory would be the retired colonel with rosey cheecks who sits in the corner of the village pub with a tweed suit on, and he would blame all the problems of the day on immigrants, single mothers and the unemployed, who incidentaly need flogging.

The first "fascist" movement to gain power was Mussolini's Blackshirts in Italy in 1922. Their movement could certainly be said to be nationalist and authoritarian, as well as accepting of violence in the struggle for political power ( Sounds like the lefties to me ), but much of the rest of its characteristics have been subject to academic dispute.

"Frustratingly, I can't give a simple definition," says Kevin Passmore, reader in history at Cardiff University and author of Fascism: A Very Short Introduction. "It depends on definitions."

If your definition of "fascist" is someone who holds beliefs that can be categorised as "fascism", the terms fascism still needs to be defined.

"Fascism" these days is taken to be synonymous with the Far Right, but in fact it is and always was a socialist movement. Both fascist and Nazi parties advocated a state-controlled and planned economy, centralised authority and collectivism (sacrificing individual liberty to the ends of society). In fact, the only difference between fascism and communism was the group that was to be favoured in the revolution: for the fascists it was defined by race; for the communists, by class.

Fascism is now a useless word having so many negative connotations as to render it virtually meaningless. In academic circles the differences between Italian and Spanish Fascism and German Nazism are understood but still terminology gets in the way. But it is surprising how many "fascist" ideas keep appearing in modern politics under different names. When Tony Blair announced the "Third Way" in British politics in the 1997 election he was using a term coined by Mussolini about the corporate state. The corporate state allowed big business to operate in a purely commercial way until it was deemed to have failed when the state would step in and impose a socialist style planned economy. The grouping of workers into similar trades was seen as a way of protecting them from the predations of big business and managing their labour/trade as part of a planned economy. Thus the Third way was a middle ground between a socialist planned economy and a democratic/liberal market economy.


Fascism simply means extreme collectivism. The individual is worthless and all that matters is the group - in most cases the nation. Nazis are just one type of fascist and it also includes communists and those traditionally believed conceived as being on the extreme left. They also believe in giving absolute power to the state, shutting down debate and "removing" individuals seen as disruptive to the "good of the whole".

I like to use Thomas Sowell's definition as he is an economist who has written extensively on this subject. Fascists, communists and Nazis are all socialists, which has as its central doctrine totalitarian dictatorship, centrally planned economy, and ownership of the means of production of the government. The difference between them is merely membership. The communist doctrine is by class, by Nazism by race (regardless of what race) and fascism by corporate membership (by fact of citizenship or physical presence). By these definitions it is easy to identify the flavour of socialist one may be. It also reminds us of the core values of each type: government ownership of everything including human and civil rights. this is why the government can kill off those who don't fit the definition they have chosen.

"Fascist" - like "racist" - is, as you say, a boo-word, something you accuse your opponent of when you cannot be bothered to actually present any argument to justify your disagreement with his opinion.

blueturando wrote:WHAT IS FASCISM?????

Is it your interpretation, or do you know of a conclusive definition?

Fascism is not just Nazi extremism: it can be someone preaching condemnation here and there against, say, smokers (I do not smoke), fat people, diabetics, old people, black people, or it may be someone who deliberately skews the truth in order to spread lies via corrupt propaganda. We had all this kind of 'fascistic' behaviour from the vile Tory blue rinse, guillotine-knitting nasty brigade before, in the form of Clause 28 homophobia; the war on single mothers; hatred of foreigners, and other excremental crap, and now we have the Tory fascist aficionados having it in for teachers and the NHS. What's new? It's like ground-hog day, you see, because the feeble minds of these borderline sociopathic personalities are metaphorically stuck in a groove like a needle in a 78 record, forever playing the same old mantra, over and over and over...

Final Point: I have never met a fascistic personality who was not a moronic ideologue with a pathological compulsion to hate, dislike, distrust and persecute their victims - often behind their backs with breathtaking savagery. I also believe these intellectually debased and inferior people are odiously cowardly, vindictive and dangerous beyond the pale. They are the very death of human rights. They are the enemy of truth.

blue. Fascism is not a word I use lightly, but it's entirely appropriate to describe the behaviour of this evil government, which shows no respect for democracy, decency or even the rule of law. Lansley is in contempt of court for not publishing the NHS Risk Register, but no doubt he'll get away with it.

Mussolini ought to have known what fascism is, and he said that it "should more appropriately be called corporatism, as it's a merger of state and corporate power." No government in living memory has been more allied to corporate power than this one, when you look at Cameron's unhealthy links with all the Murdoch sleaze, Ashcroft, his friend in A4e, or the private healthcare companies which have been bankrolling the Tories and Lansley's private office and now want their pound of flesh. Only this morning, I heard that these corporate zealots have handed over the provision of court translators to a private company, something which is so far proving to be a disaster. Quite simply, the Tories are asset-stripping everything to reward their corporate friends and backers.

We've had this discussion before, and the fact doesn't change that the most authoritarian and controlling governments are always Tory ones, and it's their actions which provoke rioting and violence. And everything most certainly isn't better in private hands. The subsidy to the railways is now five times as large as when they were state-owned, and we have the highest rail fares in the world.

I like to use Thomas Sowell's definition....

LOL. I expect you do, blue, since Sowell is a right-wing US conservative and he's hardly likely to label himself 'fascist'. I don't doubt that Arthur Scargill would offer a different definition!!

For everyone:

Cameron is a very dangerous man but tainted, hideously and fatally so, he is politically on borrowed time.

His intimate association with Rebekah Brookes of the NOTW has done for him what the market crash did for the insipid John Major.

It seems we can never get away from a determination to put labels on everyone. "Fascist!" "Communist!" "Nazi!" "Marxist!" "Capitalist!", labels which are frequently pejorative and condemnatory. Rarely are they intended to unite perceived differences, so are in real terms unhelpful.

"When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

AwfulTruth wrote:For everyone:

Cameron is a very dangerous man but tainted, hideously and fatally so, he is politically on borrowed time.

His intimate association with Rebekah Brookes of the NOTW has done for him what the market crash did for the insipid John Major.

And do not forget that Rebekah Brookes husband who has been friends with Scam..er..on for 30 years has also been arrested for the same alleged crime so that will not go down well with his party or the public, considering he also appointed Coulson to work in No 10 lets hope this will be his undoing.

Guilt by association. String 'em up!

oftenwrong wrote:Guilt by association. String 'em up!

No OW he was arrested along with his wife for trying to prevert the course of justice.

If we called you Tories something else, do you think it would make you nicer???.

I am nice Bobby, just ask my mother...I put her in a lovely retirement home...In Syria. You get more for your money there

Jokes aside...we are not that different Bobby, we could easily be drinking buddies

Redflag wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:Guilt by association. String 'em up!

No OW he was arrested along with his wife for trying to prevert the course of justice.

.... and if ultimately cleared of such charges might be instructing Solicitors to issue a writ for libel against someone.

But that's what makes life exciting.

Downing Street insisted the claims that the levy on earners over £150,000 would be reduced to 40p were "speculation".

"Speculation"? A definate dead cert, as previously predicted.

The excuse, "this will create jobs" pha!!!!

Whilst we argue the toss as to the Tories being fascists or not--consider this as a true example of what they really are.

"All selfish people display a very uncaring attitude and a strong “Me first” trait.

A very peculiar and common trait which all selfish and conceited people possess is that they always put themselves and their needs on the forefront. They only give heed to their priorities, their goals and in the process would not think of anyone else, not even about those who might be really needy than them.

When it comes to getting their needs met and their work done, they would turn a deaf ear to the necessities of others. Such selfish people do not believe in the “Live and Let Live“ philosophy, constantly putting their own needs and desires first, they just live for themselves.

A selfish person would view others only as a means to get what they want. They have a have tunnel vision which starts from and leads to themselves and their personal needs alone."

Anita Agrawal.

Mel wrote:Downing Street insisted the claims that the levy on earners over £150,000 would be reduced to 40p were "speculation".

"Speculation"? A definate dead cert, as previously predicted.

The excuse, "this will create jobs" pha!!!!

This government's propensity for lies is breathtaking: but just wait for the next election which draws ever closer...our time will come and revenge will be taken at the ballot box!

OK, perhaps old Stringfellow for example, will plough his 10p top rate tax reduction (which will be immense, assuming he pays the correct amount of tax which I doubt) into expanding his business further to create a few non productive jobs. However what about the thousands upon thousands of EMPLOYEES earning £150k+ pa? What benefit to employment will their gain make?

Buying another property overseas or an investment property here in the UK for example will not aid employment.

Of course one must remember that many of those thousands will be bankers. Nah!!!!! this is purely taking from the poor and indeed the middle classes to transfer wealth to the rich.

If a political party such as the Tory party, fully realising that they, having created without consent, the rule that they are safe in office for 5yrs and knowing that they will be out at the next election, will undoubtably introduce their full idoiolgical measures at neck break speed.

A government that dosen't believe it will be re-elected will pursue the interests of it's backers while it still holds power. Democracy is no longer a safeguard against this onslaught by those who's blind greed knows no limits.

Mel wrote: However what about the thousands upon thousands of EMPLOYEES earning £150+ pa? What benefit to employment will their gain make?
....

What indeed? When I were a lad, £150+ pa would have been a dream. We could buy all the pies in the shop and still have change for a sherbet dip as pudding.

Sherbet Dip? !!!!!!!


All we had was a rhubarb stick and a wee bag of sugar!!


I would have maimed someone for a sherbet dip!!

Ha ha!!! those were the days.

Thank you for your eagle eye OW. Error corrected Sir.

astra wrote:Sherbet Dip? !!!!!!!


All we had was a rhubarb stick and a wee bag of sugar!!


I would have maimed someone for a sherbet dip!!

You have brought long forgotten memories back astra rhubarb and a bag of sugar and of course some bodies rhubarb patch had a few sticks missing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!