The UK and the European Union - in or out? (Part 1)

by witchfinder Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

EUROSCEPTICS & UKIP CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS

In the late 1980s the nations of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) began to seriously contemplate joining the EU, there were many reasons for this, but they included the realisation that it was the only way forward for trade and prosperity, in the case of Sweden it was also the fact that several large companies made it clear they would relocate if Sweden stayed outside the EU.

Current EFTA members: Iceland - Lichtenstein - Norway - Switzerland

EFTA members who joined the EU: - Austria - Denmark - Portugal - Sweden - United Kingdom - Finland

In 1994 the European Economic Area was formed (EEA), this was a compromise organisation for those members of EFTA who did not or could not join the European Union, joining the EEA meant access to EU markets, but the deal also meant accepting EU rules, even though these states were not / are not EU members.

THE QUESTION TO THE EUROSCEPTICS IS THIS: After leaving the EU, would the UK be free of all EU rules, regulations, directives and laws?

And the straighforward answer is: NO and here is why:-

A meat production company in Lincolnshire is close to signing a multi-million pound deal with a European supermarket chain, just before the two managing directors take out their pens to sign the agreement, the boss of the supermarket chain pulls out a list of conditions.

The list of conditions consist of EU rules, unfortunately Britain has left the EU and unless the British meat producer conforms to EU standards the deal cannot go ahead, the rules cover everything from animal welfare, temperature control, employee rights, labeling, weight, moisture content and hygiene.

So no matter what happens in the future, the UK will always have to accept EU laws

Think of Norway as an example of a European nation outside the European Union, Norway is a member of the European Economic Area ( the EEA ), and as such has to accept into law virtualy every EU rule, regulation, directive and law, furthermore Norway has had to sign up to many of the EU treaties.

Norway has no say and no vote on any of the EU legislation which it accepts, and this is exactly how Britain would end up, inside the EU the UK influences legislation, it does have a say, and it does have a vote, unlike Norway.

A FREE TRADE AGREEMENT "JUST LIKE SWITZERLAND" [ Nigel Farage ]

According to UKIP, the future under them would be simple, all we need to do is leave the EU and sign up to a new free trade agreement, and the future would be bright Very Happy

, but a free trade agreement ?, lets look at that word "agreement", an agreement is not one sided, it is between the parties that make the agreement, and lets face facts here, the EU will call the shots, not Britain.

The European Union is not going to change its rules to cater for a single nation of 60 million, especialy when that nation has left the EU but still wants all the benefits of belonging, namely trade.

I am afraid that under such circumstances, Germany, France, Italy and the rest would say "our way or not at all", the best solution by far is to simply remain within the EU and go forward into the future together.

by boatlady Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:18 pm

Maybe some of the lunatics think they've taken over the asylum

by **Ivan** Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:30 pm

More likely to be Nick Griffin.

oftenwrong. I wonder what happened to that BNP thug known as Ron Belch? He used to taunt Frances Fox ('caring lady') from UKIP, even though they were both fervent europhobes.

Now that the BNP appears to have imploded, I guess all of its headbangers now support UKIP, which these days seems to be placing more emphasis on its anti-immigration stance.

by Tosh Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:43 pm

I find it rather ironic for an American to dismiss the concept of a United States of Europe when their own culture was formed from the United States of Europe.

Maybe if we brought back slavery he would be more optimistic of its success, well he is a 6 foot 9 inch bible thumping red neck from Tennessee.

Welcome James, see you just couldn't stay away from me.

by **Ivan** Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:56 pm

Maybe if we brought back slavery

I thought we had. Hasn't it been renamed 'workfare'? Shocked

by skwalker1964 Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:15 am

iamjumbo wrote:the simple, yet irrefutable FACT, is that there is NOTHING good that can be said about the european union. the basic concept of such an entity is evil on its face.

That looks a lot more like a mere assertion (and an unfounded one) than a "FACT". If it is a fact, please demonstrate - in reasoned terms if possible - why it is so.

"europe" is nothing more than a geographical designation. there is no such entity as europe.

Exactly the same could be said about the UK, or even England. Just ask the Mercians, Northumbrians, Wessexians etc.

the continent of europe is comprised of the 27 TOTALLY separate and distinct nations.

The inhabitants of Alsace Lorraine and substantial parts of Poland and Lithuania could tell you why that's nonsense, as could many other territories that have been violently disputed up to the quite recent past. Their histories would also serve as excellent examples of why your initial assertion is ludicrous, and Europe has in fact been a Good Thing.

the absolute reality is that the european common market solved EVERY trade issue.

I think you're claiming too much to say that the EU has solved 'EVERY' trade issue. Though I think you might have missed a word out..

NO single entity has any right whatsoever trying to dictate immigration policy to any country. obviously, to those with an iq above forty, and the ability to use it, the simple reality is that NO entity not of a country, has a right dictating ANYTHING to that country.

By that logic, no national government has the right to dictate to its regions, which were formerly almost all independent countries in their own right. Nor do regional governments have a right to dictate to their constituent towns and villages, since these were once separate fiefdoms and chieftainships.

Your argument is so facile as to be almost no fun to refute. It's too easy.

[quote[the european union has no right to exist, and the sooner it is destroyed, the better for every real human being[/quote]

As opposed to the 'cockroaches' and Untermenschen?

by Tosh Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:38 am

That looks a lot more like a mere assertion (and an unfounded one) than a "FACT". If it is a fact, please demonstrate - in reasoned terms if possible - why it is so.

James specializes in bare assertions, its called a Tennessee FACT, did you know the Bible is word history, seemingly that is a Tennessee fact.

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:51 am

Unwittingly, the European Central Bank may have created a whole new ball game by its recent action in Cyprus. Ordinary people with everyday bank accounts were initially threatened with the possible confiscation of 60% of their Savings. Only after much beard-stroking and furrowing of brows was there a reprieve for those with less than €100,000 on deposit.

Sauce for the goose! Who now can be confident of being able to get their money out of ANY bank within the Eurozone when they want it?

If the same practice were to be applied in the World's offshore tax havens, the entire Capitalist system might become subject to revision. What larks!

by iamjumbo Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:02 pm

Tosh wrote:
the notion of multicultrualism is inherently evil, and even the idiotic idea that having a dozen cultures in one country is despicable on its face

America was founded on the principle of multi-culturism you big balloon, or are you an ancestor of Geronimo ?

no, fool, america was NOT founded on the principle of multi-culturalism. it was founded on the principle of a melting pot, in which everyone, of every ethnic origin and culture, became americans. obviously, anyone who doesn't want to forsake their culture and totally immerse themselves in american culture has no right to be in america. the same applies for every country in the world, especially europe
no clown, i am not an ancestor of geronimo. he was apache. i'm chinook

by iamjumbo Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:05 pm

oftenwrong wrote:More likely to be Nick Griffin.

nick griffin is a good brit. some of his ideas are a little far fetched, but when it comes to immigration, and the fact that britain should be for britain first, he's spot on

by iamjumbo Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:07 pm

Ivan wrote:
More likely to be Nick Griffin.
oftenwrong. I wonder what happened to that BNP thug known as Ron Belch? He used to taunt Frances Fox ('caring lady') from UKIP, even though they were both fervent europhobes.

Now that the BNP appears to have imploded, I guess all of its headbangers now support UKIP, which these days seems to be placing more emphasis on its anti-immigration stance.

Comment deleted because of inflammatory language

by iamjumbo Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:11 pm

Tosh wrote:I find it rather ironic for an American to dismiss the concept of a United States of Europe when their own culture was formed from the United States of Europe.

Maybe if we brought back slavery he would be more optimistic of its success, well he is a 6 foot 9 inch bible thumping red neck from Tennessee.

Welcome James, see you just couldn't stay away from me.

i happened to mention to dom that i didn't actually see you here, but, everyone knows that only toshie is insane enough to start a god thread everywhere he goes, so you must be here. lo and behold, you follow me over here. that is cool.
don't be so damn daft laddie. when the united states was formed, europe was far from being the united anything. obviously, it was a much better place then

by Tosh Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:13 pm

no, fool, america was NOT founded on the principle of multi-culturalism. it was founded on the principle of a melting pot, in which everyone, of every ethnic origin and culture, became americans. obviously, anyone who doesn't want to forsake their culture and totally immerse themselves in american culture has no right to be in america.

Everyone in America has to abide by a constitution that protects all cultures, it even allows you to still dance for rain you big helicopter.

by Tosh Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:16 pm

Deleted because of inflammatory language

by boatlady Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:44 pm

Iamjumbo
You will note I have deleted one of your posts.
The comment was racist and as such unacceptable on this forum.
I am asking my fellow moderators to help me consider if I need to take further action.
#Please refrain from further racist postings

by Tosh Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:52 pm

Ivan, you better delete my reply, it contains the offensive comment.

by **Ivan** Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:58 pm

Thank you, Tosh. I'll bring that to the attention of the board moderator.

by iamjumbo Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:16 pm

boatlady wrote:Iamjumbo
You will note I have deleted one of your posts.
The comment was racist and as such unacceptable on this forum.
I am asking my fellow moderators to help me consider if I need to take further action.
#Please refrain from further racist postings

what did i post that was racist? i haven't said anything whatsoever about a race. i did say ethnic origin, but that certainly isn't racist in any way shape or form

by **Ivan** Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:23 pm

iamjumbo. If you want to discuss issues with the moderator, do so by personal message; I understand that she has written to you. This thread is for discussing the EU, not your complaints.

by iamjumbo Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:03 pm

Tosh wrote:Ivan, you better delete my reply, it contains the offensive comment.

damn lad, your eyes have always been brown. now, your nose is also?

by Tosh Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:18 pm

damn lad, your eyes have always been brown. now, your nose is also?

I keep telling you, attack the belief not the believers, you never read me attacking wacko Christians. :affraid:

by oftenwrong Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:50 pm

It was the Devil wot made 'em do it!

by **Ivan** Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:54 pm

iamjumbo wrote:-
damn lad, your eyes have always been brown. now, your nose is also?

Last chance - if you want a private conversation with Tosh or anyone else, do it by private message. This thread is about the EU. Expect any further irrelevant messages to be deleted without explanation.

by Tosh Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:23 pm

I am a tad perturbed he knows my eye colour.

by oftenwrong Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:35 pm

Yeah, that must be worrying. Anonymity is so hard to preserve, these days.

by Tosh Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:23 am

Yeah, that must be worrying. Anonymity is so hard to preserve, these days.

Serial killers are very cunning, and I am on Craig's List.

by boatlady Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:58 am

And in relation to the EU? Anyone have anything further to add?

by oftenwrong Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:02 pm

Angela Merkel wants Britain to stay in.

by **Ivan** Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:34 pm

More importantly, Barack Obama wants Britain to stay in.

Never forget what Eisenhower said in 1956: "Get the hell out of Suez, or we'll turn your pound notes into toilet paper." Eden duly obliged and then resigned. With the exception of Harold Wilson's refusal to send British troops to Vietnam, every Prime Minister since has danced to the tune of the Americans.

by Tosh Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:30 pm

I want to be where the Germans are, governing with a surplus to soften the blow of the inevitable downturns of supply and demand, a voting system aimed at pragmatic consensus, excellent industrial relations, no nuclear weapons, no crazy foreign policies and a government of administrators instead of ideologues.

I just want politicians to be almost irrelevant to my life, I hate the state being the center of attention instead of me, me and of course me.

by oftenwrong Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:09 pm

Who knew?

by Tosh Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:29 pm

Who knew?

You are a competitive attention seeker same as moi, I just don't pretend otherwise.

by boatlady Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:41 pm

Of course, in a well-regulated State, we can all be left more or less in peace to pursue our own aims.

by Tosh Sat Apr 13, 2013 6:01 pm

Of course, in a well-regulated State, we can all be left more or less in peace to pursue our own aims.

Once you regulate capitalism and socialism then they become one, this is what is slowly but surely happening in our country, albeit by a peculiar pendulum process called British democracy. The energy of the pendulum reflects the reasons behind the swings, our swings are becoming less extreme as they are running out of energy, eventually the pendulum will stop.

by **Ivan** Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:29 pm

Once you regulate capitalism and socialism then they become one......eventually the pendulum will stop

Interesting idea which I seem to recall was posited by George Dalton in a book called 'Economic Systems & Society' some years ago - does it ring any bells?

by Tosh Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:47 pm

Interesting idea which I seem to recall was posited by George Dalton in a book called 'Economic Systems & Society' some years ago - does it ring any bells?

God no, the model was our own 3 main political parties, it was hard to tell the difference from their manifesto commitments. If we look back at the differences between Heath and Wilson or Thatcher and Foot, there is a chasm, you could shuffle the pack of Milliband, Cameron and Clegg and nobody would know who was who.

In effect they all must appeal to the majority and the majority in the UK are roughly in the centre now.

by oftenwrong Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:43 pm

So if "Buggins' turn" applies, the next Westminster Government will be ......?

by skwalker1964 Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:11 am

Tosh wrote:I want to be where the Germans are, governing with a surplus to soften the blow of the inevitable downturns of supply and demand, a voting system aimed at pragmatic consensus, excellent industrial relations, no nuclear weapons, no crazy foreign policies and a government of administrators instead of ideologues.

I just want politicians to be almost irrelevant to my life, I hate the state being the center of attention instead of me, me and of course me.

The excellent industrial relations in Germany would require a drastic change to the mindset of business owners and executives in this country. Unions in Germany generally co-operate with management toward a common vision - here any such co-operation would be collaborating with the enemy in many cases. Germans have better attitudes toward workers and trades - and far higher protections for them against unemployment and exploitation.

Our government thinks the way to growth is to remove protections and dispense with the minimum wage. Spot the difference.

by skwalker1964 Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:14 am

Tosh wrote:In effect they all must appeal to the majority and the majority in the UK are roughly in the centre now.

I have a feeling the centre is moving to the left, certainly outside the gullible south, as evidenced by the Tories continuing dire poll performance. If the south came to its senses, we'd never see another Conservative government, or even a Conservative-including coalition.

by Tosh Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:12 am

So if "Buggins' turn" applies, the next Westminster Government will be ......?

My guess is we are heading the same way as Germany albeit with a different voting system, another coalition beckons between either Tory/Liberals or Labour/Liberals.

by Tosh Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:40 am

The excellent industrial relations in Germany would require a drastic change to the mindset of business owners and executives in this country. Unions in Germany generally co-operate with management toward a common vision - here any such co-operation would be collaborating with the enemy in many cases. Germans have better attitudes toward workers and trades - and far higher protections for them against unemployment and exploitation.

Your obvious bias shines through, a change of mindset is required by both employers and employees, viewing mutual cooperation as collaborating with the enemy just about sums up the problem in our industrial relations.
The Germans can afford to protect their workforce from unemployment because they have a surplus not a deficit. I disagree the Germans protect their workers more than we do, their system is more flexible and employer friendly.

I have this theory why the " them and us " attitudes are different in Germany even though both our countries were steeped in the class system, and industrial relations are just an offshoot of this malaise.

The mystique of established authority was shattered by two disastrous wars and one holocaust in Germany, and this is reflected in both their attitudes to politics and industrial relations. Germans refuse to be governed by anything other than pragmatic consensus in all aspects of life, what these events showed the Germans was the fallibility of authority without checks and balances, and they build accountabiity into their political and industrial concepts.

We are acquiring a similar mindset as each abuse of power is exposed, whether it be Union excesses, Blair's war, MP's expenses or Banking greed.

by Tosh Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:52 am

I have a feeling the centre is moving to the left, certainly outside the gullible south, as evidenced by the Tories continuing dire poll performance. If the south came to its senses, we'd never see another Conservative government, or even a Conservative-including coalition.

I really don't know what you mean by left, and the South is not gullible because they happen to disagree with your political vision. People now vote on issues rather than ideologies, the vast majority accept regulated capitalism as the means for producing wealth and regulated socialism as the means for distributing wealth. The war is over and the far right and left lost, and lost badly.

by Sponsored content