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Issues of morality shut Christians up

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Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

I wrote these two posts and got almost no response. Not a usual thing for my posts. This tells me that I hit the nail right on the head and Christians have no apologetics to refute my claim.

==========================

If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

God does not follow the first rule at all.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

This shows that what many thinks is our number one moral value was completely ignored by God.

Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

If God was right, then are we to believe that fathers are to bury their children instead of the way people think in that children should bury their parents?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”

On earth as it is in heaven.

If you had God’s power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

=============================

God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

==============================

This lack of opposition to the premise given tells me that Christians may actually be more moral than what I give them credit for. They do not walk their talk in these cases and that is a plus.

Seems Christians actually recognize good morals even if they do not preach them.
I thank Christians for confirming my view that they are just following tradition, dogma and culture while not really following their God. Thank God for that. Any sane man would reject the bible God.

Regards
DL
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:10 pm

polyglide wrote:God does not only want people to honour him, he wants people to honour each other and most of the quotes you use are out of context with the whole scenario.

The whole point is, if people did not transgress there would be no need for any kind of punishment.

Shirina, you appear to be unable to consider the fact that not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally.

There is no doubt terms were used to show the severity of certain indiscretions and not meant to be taken as fact.

We consider events by our limited means and it is those who seek the truth which is obviously hidden or there would be no need for faith, who will see the light, so come on Shirina put a battery in your torch.

Perhaps we would, as I agree with most of what she says, if you would take the log out of your eye before asking others to take the splinter from theirs.

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DL

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:12 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:27 pm

The thread is about morality.

You cannot blame Christians or anyone else for the wrongdoings of others, everyone has a choice and to blame anyone including Christians for the mistakes of others is nonsense.

The issues of morality made against Christians is unfounded, morality is a choice of those involved.

As I have said previously, you do not have to take the old scriptures literally.

Just one example.

God made man in his own image.

Now I do not think for one minute that God looks like any human being.

What I do believe is that God made man as he imagined he would fit into the world he had created and have all that was needed to have a perfect existance providing he acted according to instructions, these were not restrictive but based on the welfare of those involved.

You do not consider that which cannot be seen, with your eyes, you use your brain, which in your case appears sadly lacking.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:20 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

Regards
DL


Thank you for your Regards, but I doubt that my honest opinion would in any way be welcomed by the smugly self-satisfied denizens of this archipelago.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:25 pm

polyglide wrote:The thread is about morality.

You cannot blame Christians or anyone else for the wrongdoings of others, everyone has a choice and to blame anyone including Christians for the mistakes of others is nonsense.

The issues of morality made against Christians is unfounded, morality is a choice of those involved.

As I have said previously, you do not have to take the old scriptures literally.

Just one example.

God made man in his own image.

Now I do not think for one minute that God looks like any human being.

What I do believe is that God made man as he imagined he would fit into the world he had created and have all that was needed to have a perfect existance providing he acted according to instructions, these were not restrictive but based on the welfare of those involved.

You do not consider that which cannot be seen, with your eyes, you use your brain, which in your case appears sadly lacking.

LOL.
If man had all he needed, then why was woman an afterthought?

Gen 2; 18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone;

Give your dogmatic head a shake and start thinking if you can.

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DL
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:27 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

Regards
DL


Thank you for your Regards, but I doubt that my honest opinion would in any way be welcomed by the smugly self-satisfied denizens of this archipelago.

Yet you throw garbage into this archipelago.
Ok.

Regards
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:53 pm

From reading other postings, I gathered that was the idea.

Thank you for your interest.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by True Blue on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:43 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

Regards
DL


Thank you for your Regards, but I doubt that my honest opinion would in any way be welcomed by the smugly self-satisfied denizens of this archipelago.

Yet you throw garbage into this archipelago.
Ok.

Regards
DL

DL, You really under estimate the value of people like oftenwrong. He has an important role which could best be likened to that of the court jester of yore.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Adele Carlyon on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:03 pm

polyglide wrote:You miss the whole point, if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else

You think so? What a load of codswallop!

My Mum's brother is a man of the cloth, a pentecostal minister. He really believes he's doing to heaven when he dies. This man beat up his mother, my nanna. He beat up his wife, he fathered a child with his mistress while my aunt was pregnant with their 5th child, their long awaited son. He beat my cousins, smashing one of them in the face with his fist because at 8 yrs old she happened to drop their takeaway meal. He tried to seduce my 14 yr old sister when she was baby sitting for them, in the end she had to put a chair under the door handle to stop him getting into her room. He really thinks he is a prophet when what he really is is a wife beating, mother beating, child beating peadophile monster. You see, religion for some is just a get out of jail free card. Do what the hell you like, say oh I really am sorry for my sins jesus, and bob's your uncle, fanny's your aunt, you're free to carry on being a total bastard again, coz god has forgiven you! And all the while he looks down his nose at me coz I'm an athiest and I can see through his bullshit! Religion? Nah, you can keep it ta!
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:06 am

Then he is obviously not a Chritian, nor leading a Chritian life, you cannot blame Christianity for the wrongdoing of an individual who is a brute, just because he claims to be a Christian, you determine a Chritian by one who leads a Christian life.

You should judge Christianity by the actions of true Christians and not the Devils advocates.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:07 am

Then he is obviously not a Chritian, nor leading a Chritian life, you cannot blame Christianity for the wrongdoing of an individual who is a brute, just because he claims to be a Christian, you determine a Chritian by one who leads a Christian life.

You should judge Christianity by the actions of true Christians and not the Devils advocates.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by blueturando on Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:17 am

But Adele has told you he is a Christian Polyglide.....So now what?

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by ROB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:42 am

Adele Carlyon wrote:
polyglide wrote:
You miss the whole point, if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else
You think so? What a load of codswallop!

My Mum's brother is a man of the cloth,1 a pentecostal2 minister. He really believes he's doing to heaven when he dies. This man beat up his mother3, my nanna. He beat up his wife,4 he fathered a child with his mistress5 while my aunt was pregnant with their 5th child, their long awaited son. He beat my cousins,6 smashing one of them in the face with his fist because at 8 yrs old7 she happened to drop their takeaway meal. He tried to seduce my 14 yr old sister8 when she was baby sitting for them, in the end she had to put a chair under the door handle to stop him getting into her room. He really thinks he is a prophet9 when what he really is is a wife beating,10 mother beating,11 child beating12 peadophile monster. You see, religion for some is just a get out of jail free card.13 Do what the hell you like,14 say oh I really am sorry for my sins jesus, and bob's your uncle, fanny's your aunt, you're free to carry on being a total bastard again,15 coz god has forgiven you!


  1. Jesus didn't teach this.
  2. Jesus didn't teach this.
  3. Jesus didn't teach this.
  4. Jesus didn't teach this.
  5. Jesus didn't teach this.
  6. Jesus didn't teach this.
  7. Jesus didn't teach this.
  8. Jesus didn't teach this.
  9. Jesus didn't teach this.
  10. Jesus didn't teach this.
  11. Jesus didn't teach this.
  12. Jesus didn't teach this.
  13. Jesus didn't teach this.
  14. Jesus didn't teach this.
  15. Jesus didn't teach this.


To follow Jesus is to follow Jesus' teachings. As Polyglide said, "if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else."
[b]


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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by ROB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:46 am

blueturando wrote:
But Adele has told you he is a Christian Polyglide.....So now what?

To be a Christian is to follow Jesus. To follow Jesus is to follow Jesus' teachings. He of whom you speak is not a Christian.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by blueturando on Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:16 pm

Are Christians that kill people or support killing people still Christians too? I don't think Jesus taught that either

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by ROB on Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:30 pm

blueturando wrote:
Are Christians that kill people or support killing people still Christians too? I don't think Jesus taught that either

You, in my opinion, do not know what Jesus teaches. To learning what Jesus teaches, please read what Jesus teaches, posted below to facilitate access.

Greek Bible:

Teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach, Jesus son of Joseph, Jesus the Christ, including the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew Chapter 3:

  1. But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”

Matthew Chapter 4:

  1. But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

  2. Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

  3. Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’’

  4. And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

Matthew Chapters 5-7, Sermon on the Mount:

When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. He opened his mouth and began to teach them, saying,

  1. “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

  2. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.”

  3. “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.”

  4. “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.’

  5. “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.”

  6. “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

  7. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

  8. “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

  9. “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

  10. “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

  11. “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”

  12. “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

  13. “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

  14. “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court, and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.”

  15. “Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.”

  16. You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

  17. “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.”


  18. “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’, but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

  19. “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.”

  20. “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”

  21. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

  22. “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.”

  23. “So when yougive to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

  24. “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

  25. “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.”

  26. “Pray, then, in this way:
    ‘Our Father who is in heaven,
    ‘Hallowed be Your name.
    ‘Your kingdom come.
    ‘Your will be done,
    ‘On earth as it is in heaven.
    ‘Give us this day our daily bread.
    ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
    ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
    ‘For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’”

  27. “For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”

  28. “Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

  29. “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

  30. “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!”

  31. “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

  32. “For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink, nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

    “So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”

  33. “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged, and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite: first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

  34. “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”

  35. “Ask, and it shall be given unto you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and the door shall be opened unto you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him?”

  36. “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

  37. “Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

  38. “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.”

  39. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

  40. “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house, and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

    When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.



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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:04 pm

If I said I was the Shiek of Siam, what then?..
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by True Blue on Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:15 am

Shirina wrote:Capital punishment, at least in the US, is relatively rare.

That does not discount my argument.

Those that are given death sentences received a trial by jury and were not summarily executed.

And there are too numerous examples of those being executed having had a trial by jury and subsequently, post mortem that is, found innocent. This fact is the reason why Australia ceased capital punishment.

Granted, this is not a perfect system and I know all the arguments against death sentences.

Nor does it lend support to your claims of a 'universal' morality.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that ALL societies have laws against murder, theft, assault, and other crimes.

That is not true. There are many examples from past and present where the society in question has no such laws, nor any need for such laws, because their society is such, most often if not always a collective society, that they do not need them.

Civilizations tend to have such laws as you describe, and whilst they represent some kinds of societal organisation, they do not represent all.

No society allows its citizens to just run around murdering people.

Unless you are deemed by certain group of your citizens to be a Master Race... such as the Germans. More curiously was the celebration of Saturnalia by the Ancient Romans. A part of those drunken celebrations was the reversal of roles and the removal of law and legal consequences. Rape and Murder were not unknown during Saturnalia.

That would be utter anarchy....

Well, the Roman experience was 'utter anarchy' whilst it was allowed, but the German experience was not anarchy... It just depends.

There are no exceptions.

There are exceptions... I have dealt with this.

There are numerous examples where a government or a dictator can seemingly murder at will, but the citizens cannot.

Non Jewish citizens could and did kill Jewish citizens during WW2. The Baltic states give some examples of this... killing the Jewish members of their community prior to the Germans crossing through. The Germans were shocked by this behaviour, but did not act against it.

Then again, there is the Turkish massacres of Greeks and Armenians who had lived on Turkish soil within that lands society for millennia... Genocide is perhaps too strong a word, however the ghost towns laid waste in Turkey since that time seem to suggest otherwise.

And war? (Particularly where those engaged in War refuse to be recognised by the War Crimes Tribunal) And terrorism? (Which I note is still woefully defined yet liberally used against others as a term of derision and a justification to divide and conquer.)
War and terrorism do not equate to a civilization that allows its citizens to freely kill whomever they wish.

War is not terrorism and terrorism is not War. I treated the subjects differently, but you have combined them as though they are one and the same.... that would be a flaw in your logic I am identifying there.

In wartime, for example, there are rules of engagement and soldiers who violate them are tried, convicted, and thrown in jail (or shot).

And Officers Shirina... what about the Officers? What happens when the officers in charge of the US military offensive abuse the rules of engagement? Really Shirina... don't you know that the USA does not recognise the ICC and so cannot be brought to justice where it is that they are accused of war crimes.

Terrorism does amount to indiscriminate killing, thus, terrorists are murderers.

Is that your definition of terrorism is it? And what about your Governments Official definition of Terrorism... what is that? You see, when discussing Universal Morality... and individuals take on terrorism is no where near as potent as their government's definition.

Except these are all entertainers. High-brow entertainment to be certain, but it's still entertainment. I'm not suggesting that there aren't great entertainers, but we as a society often put too much value on it while ignoring those that truly change the world.

You have got to be kidding me? What other species can do what we do with 'entertainment'? None! What we do with 'entertainment' is exceptional amongst life on Earth. It is as exceptional as Science, Mathematics, Geometry and any other conceptual knowledge base you can think of... because it requires exactly the same qualities from the human... conceptualization, creativity and imagination. What's more... it plays a role in those things that truly change the world... so many examples, but only one I'll give... and that is the power of art to influence a nation's future and national identity. http://www.frenchhistorysociety.ac.uk/documents/pocock.pdf

To exemplify my point, ask any random person and they'll be able to tell you the names of 5 great singers, but very very few will be able to tell you the names of 5 Nobel Prize winners. There are massive celebrations and nationally broadcast award ceremonies for the Oscars and Emmys ... but how often does a national channel televise the giving of the Balzan prize for excellence in science and technology?

The above exemplifies nothing. In fact I don't understand the point you are trying to make? The mainstream is the mainstream and have always been thus in every society... You want mainstream peeps to remove their mainstream persona so that they can know who Nobel Laureates are? And how would this benefit society? I can't see that it will... the mainstream would trivialize great achievements... market it, advertise it, franchise it.

Which brings us back to the original point - Is God self-serving, and the answer is yes. He wants everyone to worship him, he wants a monopoly on the spiritual life of mortals - using threats to get what he wants. This is definitely not the biography of a loving, good, and just being.

You sound like a god believer pissed off with god. You do not sound like an atheist who is without a belief in god. An Atheist recognises that humans are responsible for human behaviours irrespective of who or what those humans seek to blame for their actions.

What I say in no way disproves the existence of God, but it does cast some doubt on whether or not the human perception of God is all that accurate.

Take care, TB. I hope I didn't offend you with my opinions. Smile

Equally, an Atheist should not care to disprove what they do not believe.

And you didn't offend me Shirina... I'm not a god believer... my interest in such things is Mythological. A great deal can be learned about humanity from their mythological stories. Equally, I do not discount mythology in our quest for understanding in the way some others do... Human existence is nothing more than a series of stories told over the ages... as ever it will be.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Shirina on Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:30 am

Nor does it lend support to your claims of a 'universal' morality.
The first half of your rebuttal can be re-summed up as such: I stand by the argument that NO society or civilization has ever allowed indiscriminate, wholesale killing and murder of one citizen by another. The reason why I know this is because there cannot be a society or civilization if people can just kill randomly without there being the rule of law. Even in cases like Nazi Germany, the average citizen was not given liberty to kill Jews in the streets - even if that did sometimes happen. In fact, the average German citizen was relatively unaware of just how extreme Hitler's hatred of the Jews actually was. Thus is it is true that there are many historical examples of the government isolating a certain segment of the population and killing them, the actual killing fell to the government itself and its agents and not the private citizen. Are there exceptions? Sure. But those exceptions were in contravention of existing law. A case in point would be the lynching of blacks in the South. It was illegal to both murder and engage in vigilantism, but it still happened because the law was weakly enforced. Even so, blacks were not rounded up by the thousands and lynched indiscriminately.

The bottom line isn't about whether America has capital punishment or whether Romans raped and murdered during Saturnalia (in fact, Saturnalia was about the suspension of existing laws against murder temporarily - which means the laws existed, hence my point). It's the fact that no society has ever had a free-for-all anarchy-based structure.
War is not terrorism and terrorism is not War. I treated the subjects differently, but you have combined them as though they are one and the same.... that would be a flaw in your logic I am identifying there.
But they both have the same result, and that's the real issue. Even during war, there are laws and rules to follow. Terrorism generally has no rules, one thing that separates the two.
There are many examples from past and present where the society in question has no such laws, nor any need for such laws
What society or civilization had absolutely no laws against murder?
And how would this benefit society? I can't see that it will... the mainstream would trivialize great achievements... market it, advertise it, franchise it.
How would it benefit society? Seriously? Do you think knowing lots of great singers but few great scientists bodes well for the knowledge-base of our society? It's not that I disparage great entertainers, as you seem to think. I do disparage the disparity in knowledge between entertainment "heroes" and all other heroes. Who do your children look up to? Great statesmen, great scientists, great inventors, great scholars, or even great entrepreneurs? No. They look up to entertainers and sports figures ... many of whom are not very good role models. How many young girls worshiped Brittany Spears ... and now look at her.
You sound like a god believer pissed off with god.
No, I'm a former believer who lives in a nation always teetering on the threshold of becoming a religion-based fascist state. THAT has me pissed off .... and it pisses me off even more that this is all a result of clinging to Bronze Age superstitions. It's an embarrassment.
An Atheist recognises that humans are responsible for human behaviours irrespective of who or what those humans seek to blame for their actions.

Most Atheists are former believers like myself ... and besides, I'm an Agnostic, not a dyed-in-the-wool Atheist. I'm only an "Atheist" when it comes to our established religions. And I do find it mind-boggling, and exceptionally primitive, when we have all kinds of wars going on, from culture wars against gays to shooting wars between various Muslim factions, over nothing more than fantasy. I only talk of God being responsible as a way of "fighting from inside" their belief system and not because I truly believe their stories. And while an Atheist may believe that humans are responsible, many Christians in this country take it one step further by saying that natural disasters are the result of God's judgment of human behavior. What a great way to get the witch hunts going ... just like they did in the 1300's when the Black Death struck Europe. We just keep making the same mistakes without ever learning from history.
Equally, an Atheist should not care to disprove what they do not believe.
Oh no ... no, no, no, no. An Atheist should very much care. Atheists in this country should not only care, but be a little worried. Remember that our Christianity is not based on "love thy neighbor," it is based on "judge thy neighbor." That gives Atheists and Agnostics alike reason to disprove religion - we may not change the minds of die hard evangelicals, but for anyone sitting on the proverbial fence, our words can have a great impact.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Bunnyrunner on Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:11 am

Fascinating little read folks....

The bible as we know it was put together in the 15th century out of fragments of text, most of which, were not written conterminously. A Jew call Jesus may well have been born in Palestine but not when it was claimed. There is good evidence for at least 14 apostles, not 12. The whole book is littered with inaccuracies both historic and factual.

I am a militant atheist so won't join in with the discussion over who has the best imaginary friend.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:59 am

There is a very simple rule of "Morality".

Do as you would be done by.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:57 pm

There could be a lot of trouble involved, you only have to look around to see what some people like.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by ROB on Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:44 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up
by oftenwrong Today at 9:59

There is a very simple rule of "Morality".

Do as you would be done by.
RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up
by RockOnBrother on Thu 2 Aug 2012 - 18:30
Greek Bible:

Matthew Chapters 5-7, Sermon on the Mount:

36. “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by oftenwrong on Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Amen.
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Like it or not, God is immoral

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:18 pm

Like it or not, God is immoral.

This clip shows how man has defined morality. I generally agree with it as it closely resembles the morality shown in all the holy books. I see them as closely resembling the golden rule.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

This clip show how what I see as a good representation of moral men judging God’s morality. I agree with their verdict and judge God to be immoral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI

From the above and from all that we know of God as depicted in the Bible, one can only conclude that God is immoral.

All those with intelligence who can discern moral actions from immoral actions will agree.

Moral actions for this exercise will be those issues where God interacts with humans.

If you do not agree that God is immoral from what you have heard above, then give your reason and I will show that God chose the immoral path in whatever action you choose to use as your example of his moral action. That or I will show that any of his altruistic acts are self-serving.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Tosh on Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:38 pm

Since I do not believe the supernatural being commonly called God exists, I do not believe it has anything to do with morality, morality evolved just like everything else.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:13 pm

Tosh wrote:Since I do not believe the supernatural being commonly called God exists, I do not believe it has anything to do with morality, morality evolved just like everything else.


I agree. It is hard wired into our survival instincts.

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For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

Post by Greatest I am on Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:53 pm

For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice. He would also be condoning suicide.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

People are supposed to martyr themselves for their God, not their God martyr himself for them.

Do you agree that for God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related

If you believe that substitutionary atonement is moral, please provide an argument to support your position.

===============================================

There are also ample quotes in scripture that speak against God wanting any sacrifice at all and if you embrace the notion of innocent blood atonement and God setting Jesus as the ransom for sins, then please view these for the real biblical perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:43 pm

I do not know how present day man can be bothered about all the old taboos about killing the innocent and sacrifices etc.,

The only thing Jesus asked of us was to believe in him and nothing more.

As for God making a sacrifice of his son, mankind had to have a real lesson to consider, having sunk into depravity and false religions etc;

Instead of trying to bring up the long past we should consider the state of the world today which is heading straight towards the state when God had to interfere previously.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Tosh on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:52 pm

I agree. It is hard wired into our survival instincts.


Morality in its most basic form is conflict avoidance, the greatest risk to a socialised human's survival is a fellow human.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:54 pm

polyglide wrote:I do not know how present day man can be bothered about all the old taboos about killing the innocent and sacrifices etc.,

So you think we should be punishing the innocent?

The only thing Jesus asked of us was to believe in him and nothing more.

Him and his unworkable rhetoric and anti-love policies. Like his divorce one.

And if we do not then off to hell we go.

As for God making a sacrifice of his son, mankind had to have a real lesson to consider, having sunk into depravity and false religions etc;

So a lesson that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty and human sacrifice are good moral lessons to you are they?

Instead of trying to bring up the long past we should consider the state of the world today which is heading straight towards the state when God had to interfere previously.

The world is in a better condition than it has ever been.
I track poverty, violent death and slavery.
All of these markers are the best they have ever been.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:55 pm

Tosh wrote:
I agree. It is hard wired into our survival instincts.


Morality in its most basic form is conflict avoidance, the greatest risk to a socialised human's survival is a fellow human.

No argument.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:56 pm

I do not know which planet anyone thinks they are on if the present day world is in the best state it has ever been in.

There are more children starving to death every day than ever before, more diseases arrising, crime against children and adults, many hidden and not procecuted as with many other crimes, out of control.

Many crimes previouly recorded are now let off with a caution and not recorded.etc;

There are conflicts and the possibility of further conflicts that have the potencial to wipe out the world as we know it.

The conflict between religions is also a major threat to life as never before and every country is subject to terrorists.

Some people, in particular the elderly, are afraid to go out even in daylight.

The financial sate of many nations are such that they could collapse, the result of which does not bear thinking about.

There is much more that is rotten with the world at the present time and I do not know where you get your information from but whatever it is I would advise you to change it for the Comic Cuts you would certainly learn more.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:02 pm

polyglide wrote:I do not know which planet anyone thinks they are on if the present day world is in the best state it has ever been in.

There are more children starving to death every day than ever before, more diseases arrising, crime against children and adults, many hidden and not procecuted as with many other crimes, out of control.

Many crimes previouly recorded are now let off with a caution and not recorded.etc;

There are conflicts and the possibility of further conflicts that have the potencial to wipe out the world as we know it.

The conflict between religions is also a major threat to life as never before and every country is subject to terrorists.

Some people, in particular the elderly, are afraid to go out even in daylight.

The financial sate of many nations are such that they could collapse, the result of which does not bear thinking about.

There is much more that is rotten with the world at the present time and I do not know where you get your information from but whatever it is I would advise you to change it for the Comic Cuts you would certainly learn more.


Check the stats and recognize your words as lies.

That or show the stats that back up your words.

If you are unable to, which is likely, because I have stats against, let me give you this to ponder as proof.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ezVk1ahRF78

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Tosh on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:09 pm

I do not know which planet anyone thinks they are on

You must be lonely on your planet, are your arms free ?
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:14 pm

It is more important to have your brains free from the nonsense some think as viable.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by polyglide on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:17 pm

You will have the information you request if you tell me exactly what you dispute.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Tosh on Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:20 pm

You will have the information you request if you tell me exactly what you dispute..

Your intelligence, nay sanity...lolol. Very Happy
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Greatest I am on Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:44 pm

polyglide wrote:You will have the information you request if you tell me exactly what you dispute.

You made many sky is falling claims as to things being the worse than they have ever been.
Prove your point with your claim.
How about slavery and death by violence including crimes and war, two of the greatest evils.

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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Tosh on Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:04 pm

Universal morality can best be measured by well being and well being can best be measured by global infant mortality rates and average life expectancy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

There is no argument unless you wish to ignore evidence.



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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

Post by Tosh on Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:06 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-x7eHuUhNM

I love this guy.
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Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up

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