Issues of morality shut Christians up

by Greatest I am Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Issues of morality shuts Christians up.

I know I have done well in an O. P. when Christians run from a discussion.

I wrote these two posts and got almost no response. Not a usual thing for my posts. This tells me that I hit the nail right on the head and Christians have no apologetics to refute my claim.

==========================

If you accept this as universal morality, you will reject God.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

God does not follow the first rule at all.

The bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or sin.

This shows that what many thinks is our number one moral value was completely ignored by God.

Is God immoral or has man gotten morality wrong?

If God was right, then are we to believe that fathers are to bury their children instead of the way people think in that children should bury their parents?

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.”

On earth as it is in heaven.

If you had God’s power to set the conditions for atonement, would you step up yourself or would you send your child to die?

=============================

God to Jesus. I just condemned the human race. Now go die to save them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott1...eature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

I think that the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty perpetrator is immoral. Be it a willing sacrifice as some believe with Jesus or unwilling victim.

I also think that God, who has a plethora of other options, would have come up with a moral way instead of an immoral and barbaric human sacrifice.

I agree with scriptures say that we are all responsible for our own righteousness as well as our own iniquity and that God cannot be bribed by sacrifice.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

I believe as I do because I believe that the first rule of morality is harm/care of children.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

Do you agree that the notion of substitutionary atonement is immoral and that God’s first principle of morality is hare/harm and that this would prevent him from demanding the death of his son?

==============================

This lack of opposition to the premise given tells me that Christians may actually be more moral than what I give them credit for. They do not walk their talk in these cases and that is a plus.

Seems Christians actually recognize good morals even if they do not preach them.
I thank Christians for confirming my view that they are just following tradition, dogma and culture while not really following their God. Thank God for that. Any sane man would reject the bible God.

Regards
DL

by Shirina Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:25 pm

As the world is at the present time there are very few standards of any kind being met

Now, I know those who believe in a more apocalyptic version of Christianity are wont to convince everyone that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. After all, they're all on the edge of their chairs perpetually waiting for Jesus's return. But is that a true assessment of our world today? Well, no ...

JAIPUR: We live in violent, turbulent times-perhaps the most dangerous in human history, right? Wrong. At least that's what Steven Pinker would argue. Flying in the face of conventional wisdom, the Harvard professor of cognitive psychology and author of 'The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined' on Saturday held a packed audience at the Jaipur Literary Festival spellbound with his argument that, in fact, we have the good fortune to be living in the most peaceful period in human history.

LINK

The economic crisis was supposed to increase violence around the world. The truth is that we are now living in one of the most peaceful periods since war first arose 10 or 12 millennia ago. The relative calm of our era, say scientists who study warfare in history and even prehistory, belies the popular, pessimistic notion that war is so deeply rooted in our nature that we can never abolish it. In fact, war seems to be a largely cultural phenomenon, which culture is now helping us eradicate. Some scholars now even cautiously speculate that the era of traditional war—fought by two uniformed, state-sponsored armies—might be drawing to a close. "War could be on the verge of ceasing to exist as a substantial phenomenon," says John Mueller, a political scientist at Ohio State University.

LINK

The last time the crime rate for serious crime – murder, rape, robbery, assault – fell to these levels, gasoline cost 29 cents a gallon and the average income for a working American was $5,807.

That was 1963.

In the past 20 years, for instance, the murder rate in the United States has dropped by almost half, from 9.8 per 100,000 people in 1991 to 5.0 in 2009. Meanwhile, robberies were down 10 percent in 2010 from the year before and 8 percent in 2009. The declines are not just a blip, say criminologists. Rather, they are the result of a host of changes that have fundamentally reversed the high-crime trends of the 1980s. And these changes have taken hold to such a degree that the drop in crime continued despite the recent recession.

Because the pattern "transcends cities and US regions, we can safely say crime is down," says James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston. "We are indeed a safer nation than 20 years ago."

The data point to a persistent perception gap among Americans. Despite strong evidence of crime dropping over recent decades, the public sees the reverse. "Recent Gallup polls have found that citizens overwhelmingly feel crime is going up even though it is not," says Professor Fox. "This is because of the growth of crime shows and the way that TV spotlights the emotional. One case of a random, horrific shooting shown repeatedly on TV has more visceral effect than all the statistics printed in a newspaper."

LINK

As I said, when one of the matras of the modern media is, "If it bleeds, it leads," it is unsurprising to learn that the average person thinks the world is at its lowest point ever. Bombarded as we are by negativity on a daily basis, it stands to reason that people would get this mistaken impression. Couple that with the deep need of apocalyptic Christians for the Rapture to take place, they are quick to point toward every random act of violence or brush fire war as proof positive that Jesus has entered our solar system even as we speak. So much for Biblical prophecy, then, as Christians try to pound that proverbial square peg into that equally proverbial round hole. The idea that "wars and rumors of war" are happening all over the world is a falsehood.

by True Blue Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:43 pm

Greatest I am wrote:The point is that mankind has a universal morality...

And what is that universal morality?

and if you use the big 10 then God's morality does not match nor is it as well defined as man's.

Compared to what? You haven't actually explained the universal morality for which God's morality is no match.

Note how man centers his morality on others while God and Jesus center their morality on themselves and is self-serving.

I disagree. I think that one of humanity's traits is the will to venerate greatness. You see it everywhere in history and contemporary society. In Sports, with a capital S, the veneration of greatness is well expressed. So too it is well expressed in Award Nights of all kinds from all levels of society.

Now, if this will to venerate greatness finds expression in religion and spirituality, is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.

by Shirina Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:32 am

And what is that universal morality?

Every organized society have laws which forbid such things as murder, theft, assault, and numerous others. Nowhere, from the most advanced nation-state to the most primitive tribal culture allows people to murder and steal at will. This type of morality is, in fact, universal. While yes, it is true that some civilizations sanctioned murder - such as the Aztecs - even these societies did not allow people to merely slaughter each other willy nilly. All of these people, indeed all humans, have recognized for countless centuries that such behavior is wrong ... which is precisely why laws and customs were created to forbid it.

is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.

I would argue that humans only see greatness in those who entertain us. Whether they are gladiators in the Coliseum or a sports stars in Wembley Stadum, they are the ones who soak up our veneration while the truly great people are rarely remarked upon outside of their given professional communities. Only after death, when their works become valuable, does the impact of greatness ever wash over artists and novelists. Shakespeare was never regarded as "great" by his contemporaries and Einstein was just another scientist that few people outside of the field of science knew existed. But those who entertain - they are the great ones in Western society, and I'm not convinced that the accolade of "great" can be truly given to an actor or an Olympic athlete.

But more to the point, we are not commanded by Einstein or Shakespeare to venerate him. We do so voluntarily. Yet God demands our veneration and threatens those who do not with eternal hellfire. That is, in fact, self-serving, and I have said many times that I do not believe for a nanosecond that a truly loving and omnipotent God would ever demand our love and veneration. Throughout the Bible, we are commanded to worship God, to love God, and to put God before everything else - including our own children! The narcissism and egocentricity of God cannot be denied.

Let us not forget the very first commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me!

Those who we consider "great" in our society do not nominate themselves for their awards. No soldier has ever received the Medal of Honor or the Victoria Cross by demanding it. No actor has ever won an Oscar by getting up in front of the microphone and declaring, "You MUST love me and give me that award or I will punish you all!" We like our heroes to be meek, modest, even a bit self-effacing. We like confidence, not arrogance, and very few people would respond well to heroes demanding that we hero-worship them. Roman emperors who declared themselves living gods usually found themselves dangling from swords wielded by their own Praetorian Guard.

God has always been given a free pass for his arrogance and demands because, well, God is God - or so the believers say. I have never felt that the gods of organized religion were anything other than human fabrications with human fingerprints all over their concepts. God's behavior in the Old Testament sounds precisely like how human beings in the Bronze Age would expect a God to behave: Perpetually angry, wrathful, throwing around natural disasters and death sentences, domineering, demanding, and extremely egocentric. The God of the OT is little better than all of the gods who came before him. The only real difference is monotheism rather than polytheism. Otherwise, God could just as well be Zeus.

People in the Bronze Age expected their gods to be self-serving, vain, and arrogant. Wouldn't you be if you were a god? It is apparent that people made God in Man's image, not the other way around. You can tell that the OT God was modeled after previous gods - and they, in turn, were modeled after power-mad people, tribal warlords, chieftains, and kings who believed themselves to be all-powerful.

by polyglide Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:16 am

You miss the whole point, if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else

Just what planet do you think you are on Shirina?

There is not one place on earth that is not presently being threatened in one way or another, just because a direct threat is not being made does not mean that it does not exist according to the prevailing circumstances.

Two countries fighting each other can pose a problem for the world never mind themselves

Iran, Syria and many others being prime examples. [ North Korea} etc.

Along with a complete breakdown of morality in almost all countries.

So come on Shirina take a reality check.

by Shirina Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:40 pm

Along with a complete breakdown of morality in almost all countries.

Just what "morality" are you referring to? The Christo-fascism type or the genuine "love they neighbor" type?

by True Blue Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:05 am

Shirina wrote:
And what is that universal morality?
Every organized society have laws which forbid such things as murder, theft, assault, and numerous others. Nowhere, from the most advanced nation-state to the most primitive tribal culture allows people to murder and steal at will. This type of morality is, in fact, universal.

Where does Capital Punishment fit into this seemingly picture perfect universal morality? (This is relevant because not all nations appeal to legal murder as a mechanism of Justice.) And war? (Particularly where those engaged in War refuse to be recognised by the War Crimes Tribunal) And terrorism? (Which I note is still woefully defined yet liberally used against others as a term of derision and a justification to divide and conquer.)

If you can predict the answers to those question as being troublesome for any definition of universal morality which includes murder, then equally, you must appreciate that there is no such reality that includes universal morality.

is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.
I would argue that humans only see greatness in those who entertain us.

And I think that your statement and the justifications used to substantiate same, is you reflecting upon your social situation which is mainstream. If you had the opportunity to be a part of the veneration expressed at the Ballet, Theatre, Symphony, Opera... and even to a lesser extent at Lecture Halls. Heck, if you had the opportunity to listen to an inspiring public speaker sent into an org to rally the troups, you would see the impact on many which can lead to veneration of that person. Pop stars are venerated by their fan base. Tragically, even criminals of great notoriety are adored by a very few.

It is a part of our nature to look up to exceptional people. And if the mainstream love sport more than most other things then there is where you will find exceptional sports people venerated. It is no great leap of understanding to see how this trait can be expressed in the superhuman context. It does not matter that with some gods we can empathize, because of their human-like qualities, yet others kept at an awe filled distance because they are more removed from the human experience. It doesn't matter because they are venerated for their god-like qualities and god-like promises to humanity. Zeus was venerated for his amazing powers and care taker attitude towards humans. Christ is venerated for his amazing power, the power of his promises and care taker attitude towards humans.

But more to the point, we are not commanded by Einstein or Shakespeare to venerate him. We do so voluntarily. Yet God demands our veneration and threatens those who do not with eternal hellfire.

Apparently, according to biblical texts, the gods are in competition with one another, so it pays to put the word out that your hood is YOURS! Of course it could well be argued though archaeology and history that there is indeed evidence of certain tribes warring with other tribes of different gods. This is a theme of humanity through out the ages, including biblical times. So we can say that God demands our veneration or we could say that Tribal Leaders use their communal Gods to ensure social unity and the Leaders power.

Let us not forget the very first commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me!

Yes, even the Jewish biblical texts acknowledge the existence of other gods. Therefore, see above.

by Greatest I am Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:50 pm

True Blue wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:The point is that mankind has a universal morality...

And what is that universal morality?

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

and if you use the big 10 then God's morality does not match nor is it as well defined as man's.

Compared to what? You haven't actually explained the universal morality for which God's morality is no match.

Simple friend. Morality is directed at others and not the self. God is all into himself.
Not surprising if you consider that morality is born within groups and how they treat each other. God could not learn morality because he is the only one of his group.

Note how man centers his morality on others while God and Jesus center their morality on themselves and is self-serving.

I disagree. I think that one of humanity's traits is the will to venerate greatness.

Yes. On a voluntary basis. Not because one is ordered under pain of torture in hell.
What greatness can we attribute to God? Nothing unless you decide to believe in fantasy, miracles and magic that there is no evidence for. You know there is none and that is why believers hide behind faith.

You see it everywhere in history and contemporary society. In Sports, with a capital S, the veneration of greatness is well expressed. So too it is well expressed in Award Nights of all kinds from all levels of society.

Now, if this will to venerate greatness finds expression in religion and spirituality, is it fair to accuse god of being self serving or is it better to see it for what it is, yet another example of that trait we are discussing.

So to you, to demand veneration, love, honors etc. is not self-serving.
Give your head a shake.

Regards
DL

by Shirina Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:33 pm

Where does Capital Punishment fit into this seemingly picture perfect universal morality? (This is relevant because not all nations appeal to legal murder as a mechanism of Justice.)

Capital punishment, at least in the US, is relatively rare. Those that are given death sentences received a trial by jury and were not summarily executed. Granted, this is not a perfect system and I know all the arguments against death sentences. However, the point I'm trying to make is that ALL societies have laws against murder, theft, assault, and other crimes. No society allows its citizens to just run around murdering people. That would be utter anarchy, and the fact that all societies do have these laws, the morality regarding murder is, in fact, universal. There are no exceptions. There are numerous examples where a government or a dictator can seemingly murder at will, but the citizens cannot. Unfortunately, not all leaders are moral.

And war? (Particularly where those engaged in War refuse to be recognised by the War Crimes Tribunal) And terrorism? (Which I note is still woefully defined yet liberally used against others as a term of derision and a justification to divide and conquer.)

War and terrorism do not equate to a civilization that allows its citizens to freely kill whomever they wish. In wartime, for example, there are rules of engagement and soldiers who violate them are tried, convicted, and thrown in jail (or shot). War does not equate to indiscriminate killing. Terrorism does amount to indiscriminate killing, thus, terrorists are murderers. They are breaking laws. Even the Taliban offered to turn over bin Laden to be tried and convicted in the US ... but Bush refused because he wanted war. If the Taliban recognizes terrorism as murder, then it shows that there is a universal morality when it comes to killing.

If you had the opportunity to be a part of the veneration expressed at the Ballet, Theatre, Symphony, Opera... and even to a lesser extent at Lecture Halls.

Except these are all entertainers. High-brow entertainment to be certain, but it's still entertainment. I'm not suggesting that there aren't great entertainers, but we as a society often put too much value on it while ignoring those that truly change the world. To exemplify my point, ask any random person and they'll be able to tell you the names of 5 great singers, but very very few will be able to tell you the names of 5 Nobel Prize winners. There are massive celebrations and nationally broadcast award ceremonies for the Oscars and Emmys ... but how often does a national channel televise the giving of the Balzan prize for excellence in science and technology?

Even in our schools, here in America, the sports teams receive huge amounts of recognition whereas excellence in academics is hardly whispered about much less plastered all over the front page of the school newspaper.

It is no great leap of understanding to see how this trait can be expressed in the superhuman context.

When it comes to God, there is nothing to venerate. Ironically, you stated this:

Tragically, even criminals of great notoriety are adored by a very few.

I beg to differ here. Criminals aren't adored by just a very few. In fact, one criminal is adored by billions: God. His actions in the OT are nothing BUT criminal. Not only do people venerate God, they venerate his criminality, making up all kinds of excuses and bizarre rationalizations why God's actions are somehow good. Nonsense. Anyone reading the OT should feel sickened that their supposed deity would behave like a petulant and psychopathic child, yet that isn't the case. Billions still adore and venerate God.

On the other hand, I can understand the veneration of Jesus, but it is a twisted veneration. God offering a sacrifice of himself to himself ... well how self-serving is that? I would say that is hugely self-serving. Did Jesus die for our sins? No ... Jesus died for God. After all, God is all-powerful; he could simply wave his hand and say, "You're forgiven." Instead of doing that, however, he had to make a grand spectacle of giving a blood sacrifice to himself in order to forgive us. That really doesn't make a lot of sense to a rational mind, but it makes perfect sense when viewed with the lens of a deity with severe psychiatric issues.

So we can say that God demands our veneration or we could say that Tribal Leaders use their communal Gods to ensure social unity and the Leaders power.

Which brings us back to the original point - Is God self-serving, and the answer is yes. He wants everyone to worship him, he wants a monopoly on the spiritual life of mortals - using threats to get what he wants. This is definitely not the biography of a loving, good, and just being.

What I say in no way disproves the existence of God, but it does cast some doubt on whether or not the human perception of God is all that accurate.

Take care, TB. I hope I didn't offend you with my opinions. Smile

by polyglide Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:33 pm

God does not only want people to honour him, he wants people to honour each other and most of the quotes you use are out of context with the whole scenario.

The whole point is, if people did not transgress there would be no need for any kind of punishment.

Shirina, you appear to be unable to consider the fact that not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally.

There is no doubt terms were used to show the severity of certain indiscretions and not meant to be taken as fact.

We consider events by our limited means and it is those who seek the truth which is obviously hidden or there would be no need for faith, who will see the light, so come on Shirina put a battery in your torch.

by oftenwrong Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:47 pm

"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

by Greatest I am Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:10 pm

polyglide wrote:God does not only want people to honour him, he wants people to honour each other and most of the quotes you use are out of context with the whole scenario.

The whole point is, if people did not transgress there would be no need for any kind of punishment.

Shirina, you appear to be unable to consider the fact that not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally.

There is no doubt terms were used to show the severity of certain indiscretions and not meant to be taken as fact.

We consider events by our limited means and it is those who seek the truth which is obviously hidden or there would be no need for faith, who will see the light, so come on Shirina put a battery in your torch.

Perhaps we would, as I agree with most of what she says, if you would take the log out of your eye before asking others to take the splinter from theirs.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:12 pm

oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

Regards
DL

by polyglide Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:27 pm

The thread is about morality.

You cannot blame Christians or anyone else for the wrongdoings of others, everyone has a choice and to blame anyone including Christians for the mistakes of others is nonsense.

The issues of morality made against Christians is unfounded, morality is a choice of those involved.

As I have said previously, you do not have to take the old scriptures literally.

Just one example.

God made man in his own image.

Now I do not think for one minute that God looks like any human being.

What I do believe is that God made man as he imagined he would fit into the world he had created and have all that was needed to have a perfect existance providing he acted according to instructions, these were not restrictive but based on the welfare of those involved.

You do not consider that which cannot be seen, with your eyes, you use your brain, which in your case appears sadly lacking.

by oftenwrong Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:20 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

Regards
DL

Thank you for your Regards, but I doubt that my honest opinion would in any way be welcomed by the smugly self-satisfied denizens of this archipelago.

by Greatest I am Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:25 pm

polyglide wrote:The thread is about morality.

You cannot blame Christians or anyone else for the wrongdoings of others, everyone has a choice and to blame anyone including Christians for the mistakes of others is nonsense.

The issues of morality made against Christians is unfounded, morality is a choice of those involved.

As I have said previously, you do not have to take the old scriptures literally.

Just one example.

God made man in his own image.

Now I do not think for one minute that God looks like any human being.

What I do believe is that God made man as he imagined he would fit into the world he had created and have all that was needed to have a perfect existance providing he acted according to instructions, these were not restrictive but based on the welfare of those involved.

You do not consider that which cannot be seen, with your eyes, you use your brain, which in your case appears sadly lacking.

LOL.
If man had all he needed, then why was woman an afterthought?

Gen 2; 18 And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone;

Give your dogmatic head a shake and start thinking if you can.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:27 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

Regards
DL

Thank you for your Regards, but I doubt that my honest opinion would in any way be welcomed by the smugly self-satisfied denizens of this archipelago.

Yet you throw garbage into this archipelago.
Ok.

Regards
DL

by oftenwrong Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:53 pm

From reading other postings, I gathered that was the idea.

Thank you for your interest.

by True Blue Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:43 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:"not all the Bible was intended to be taken literally."

Something it has in common with this thread then.

Let us know if you ever decide to actually join in the discussion by opining on it.

Regards
DL

Thank you for your Regards, but I doubt that my honest opinion would in any way be welcomed by the smugly self-satisfied denizens of this archipelago.

Yet you throw garbage into this archipelago.
Ok.

Regards
DL

DL, You really under estimate the value of people like oftenwrong. He has an important role which could best be likened to that of the court jester of yore.

by Adele Carlyon Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:03 pm

polyglide wrote:You miss the whole point, if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else

You think so? What a load of codswallop!

My Mum's brother is a man of the cloth, a pentecostal minister. He really believes he's doing to heaven when he dies. This man beat up his mother, my nanna. He beat up his wife, he fathered a child with his mistress while my aunt was pregnant with their 5th child, their long awaited son. He beat my cousins, smashing one of them in the face with his fist because at 8 yrs old she happened to drop their takeaway meal. He tried to seduce my 14 yr old sister when she was baby sitting for them, in the end she had to put a chair under the door handle to stop him getting into her room. He really thinks he is a prophet when what he really is is a wife beating, mother beating, child beating peadophile monster. You see, religion for some is just a get out of jail free card. Do what the hell you like, say oh I really am sorry for my sins jesus, and bob's your uncle, fanny's your aunt, you're free to carry on being a total bastard again, coz god has forgiven you! And all the while he looks down his nose at me coz I'm an athiest and I can see through his bullshit! Religion? Nah, you can keep it ta!

by polyglide Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:06 am

Then he is obviously not a Chritian, nor leading a Chritian life, you cannot blame Christianity for the wrongdoing of an individual who is a brute, just because he claims to be a Christian, you determine a Chritian by one who leads a Christian life.

You should judge Christianity by the actions of true Christians and not the Devils advocates.

by polyglide Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:07 am

Then he is obviously not a Chritian, nor leading a Chritian life, you cannot blame Christianity for the wrongdoing of an individual who is a brute, just because he claims to be a Christian, you determine a Chritian by one who leads a Christian life.

You should judge Christianity by the actions of true Christians and not the Devils advocates.

by blueturando Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:17 am

But Adele has told you he is a Christian Polyglide.....So now what?

by ROB Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:42 am

Adele Carlyon wrote:
polyglide wrote:
You miss the whole point, if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else
You think so? What a load of codswallop!

My Mum's brother is a man of the cloth,¹ a pentecostal² minister. He really believes he's doing to heaven when he dies. This man beat up his mother³, my nanna. He beat up his wife,⁴ he fathered a child with his mistress⁵ while my aunt was pregnant with their 5th child, their long awaited son. He beat my cousins,⁶ smashing one of them in the face with his fist because at 8 yrs old⁷ she happened to drop their takeaway meal. He tried to seduce my 14 yr old sister⁸ when she was baby sitting for them, in the end she had to put a chair under the door handle to stop him getting into her room. He really thinks he is a prophet⁹ when what he really is is a wife beating,¹⁰ mother beating,¹¹ child beating¹² peadophile monster. You see, religion for some is just a get out of jail free card.¹³ Do what the hell you like,¹⁴ say oh I really am sorry for my sins jesus, and bob's your uncle, fanny's your aunt, you're free to carry on being a total bastard again,¹⁵ coz god has forgiven you!

Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.
Jesus didn't teach this.

To follow Jesus is to follow Jesus' teachings. As Polyglide said, "if people followed Jesus there would be no one doing wrong to anyone else."
[b]

by ROB Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:46 am

blueturando wrote:
But Adele has told you he is a Christian Polyglide.....So now what?

To be a Christian is to follow Jesus. To follow Jesus is to follow Jesus' teachings. He of whom you speak is not a Christian.

by blueturando Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:16 pm

Are Christians that kill people or support killing people still Christians too? I don't think Jesus taught that either

by ROB Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:30 pm

blueturando wrote:
Are Christians that kill people or support killing people still Christians too? I don't think Jesus taught that either

You, in my opinion, do not know what Jesus teaches. To learning what Jesus teaches, please read what Jesus teaches, posted below to facilitate access.

Greek Bible:

Teachings of Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach, Jesus son of Joseph, Jesus the Christ, including the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew Chapter 3:

But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.”

Matthew Chapter 4:

But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”

Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’’

And he said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.”

Matthew Chapters 5-7, Sermon on the Mount:

When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. He opened his mouth and began to teach them, saying,

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

“Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.”

“Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.”

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.’

“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.”

“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.”

“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.”

“Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.”

“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court, and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.”

“Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.”

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’, but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you, for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.”

“It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’, but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

“Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the lord.’ But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great king. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.”

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, do not resist an evil person, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.”

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.”

“So when yougive to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving will be in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

“When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. So do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.”

“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
‘Hallowed be Your name.
‘Your kingdom come.
‘Your will be done,
‘On earth as it is in heaven.
‘Give us this day our daily bread.
‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
‘For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’”

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.”

“Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.”

“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal, for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

“The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!”

“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

“For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink, nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life? And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith! Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”

“So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”

“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged, and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite: first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.”

“Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.”

“Ask, and it shall be given unto you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and the door shall be opened unto you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him?”

“In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

“Enter through the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.”

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house, and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house, and it fell, and great was its fall.”

When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

by polyglide Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:04 pm

If I said I was the Shiek of Siam, what then?..

by True Blue Sun Aug 05, 2012 3:15 am

Shirina wrote:Capital punishment, at least in the US, is relatively rare.

That does not discount my argument.

Those that are given death sentences received a trial by jury and were not summarily executed.

And there are too numerous examples of those being executed having had a trial by jury and subsequently, post mortem that is, found innocent. This fact is the reason why Australia ceased capital punishment.

Granted, this is not a perfect system and I know all the arguments against death sentences.

Nor does it lend support to your claims of a 'universal' morality.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that ALL societies have laws against murder, theft, assault, and other crimes.

That is not true. There are many examples from past and present where the society in question has no such laws, nor any need for such laws, because their society is such, most often if not always a collective society, that they do not need them.

Civilizations tend to have such laws as you describe, and whilst they represent some kinds of societal organisation, they do not represent all.

No society allows its citizens to just run around murdering people.

Unless you are deemed by certain group of your citizens to be a Master Race... such as the Germans. More curiously was the celebration of Saturnalia by the Ancient Romans. A part of those drunken celebrations was the reversal of roles and the removal of law and legal consequences. Rape and Murder were not unknown during Saturnalia.

That would be utter anarchy....

Well, the Roman experience was 'utter anarchy' whilst it was allowed, but the German experience was not anarchy... It just depends.

There are no exceptions.

There are exceptions... I have dealt with this.

There are numerous examples where a government or a dictator can seemingly murder at will, but the citizens cannot.

Non Jewish citizens could and did kill Jewish citizens during WW2. The Baltic states give some examples of this... killing the Jewish members of their community prior to the Germans crossing through. The Germans were shocked by this behaviour, but did not act against it.

Then again, there is the Turkish massacres of Greeks and Armenians who had lived on Turkish soil within that lands society for millennia... Genocide is perhaps too strong a word, however the ghost towns laid waste in Turkey since that time seem to suggest otherwise.

And war? (Particularly where those engaged in War refuse to be recognised by the War Crimes Tribunal) And terrorism? (Which I note is still woefully defined yet liberally used against others as a term of derision and a justification to divide and conquer.)
War and terrorism do not equate to a civilization that allows its citizens to freely kill whomever they wish.

War is not terrorism and terrorism is not War. I treated the subjects differently, but you have combined them as though they are one and the same.... that would be a flaw in your logic I am identifying there.

In wartime, for example, there are rules of engagement and soldiers who violate them are tried, convicted, and thrown in jail (or shot).

And Officers Shirina... what about the Officers? What happens when the officers in charge of the US military offensive abuse the rules of engagement? Really Shirina... don't you know that the USA does not recognise the ICC and so cannot be brought to justice where it is that they are accused of war crimes.

Terrorism does amount to indiscriminate killing, thus, terrorists are murderers.

Is that your definition of terrorism is it? And what about your Governments Official definition of Terrorism... what is that? You see, when discussing Universal Morality... and individuals take on terrorism is no where near as potent as their government's definition.

Except these are all entertainers. High-brow entertainment to be certain, but it's still entertainment. I'm not suggesting that there aren't great entertainers, but we as a society often put too much value on it while ignoring those that truly change the world.

You have got to be kidding me? What other species can do what we do with 'entertainment'? None! What we do with 'entertainment' is exceptional amongst life on Earth. It is as exceptional as Science, Mathematics, Geometry and any other conceptual knowledge base you can think of... because it requires exactly the same qualities from the human... conceptualization, creativity and imagination. What's more... it plays a role in those things that truly change the world... so many examples, but only one I'll give... and that is the power of art to influence a nation's future and national identity. http://www.frenchhistorysociety.ac.uk/documents/pocock.pdf

To exemplify my point, ask any random person and they'll be able to tell you the names of 5 great singers, but very very few will be able to tell you the names of 5 Nobel Prize winners. There are massive celebrations and nationally broadcast award ceremonies for the Oscars and Emmys ... but how often does a national channel televise the giving of the Balzan prize for excellence in science and technology?

The above exemplifies nothing. In fact I don't understand the point you are trying to make? The mainstream is the mainstream and have always been thus in every society... You want mainstream peeps to remove their mainstream persona so that they can know who Nobel Laureates are? And how would this benefit society? I can't see that it will... the mainstream would trivialize great achievements... market it, advertise it, franchise it.

Which brings us back to the original point - Is God self-serving, and the answer is yes. He wants everyone to worship him, he wants a monopoly on the spiritual life of mortals - using threats to get what he wants. This is definitely not the biography of a loving, good, and just being.

You sound like a god believer pissed off with god. You do not sound like an atheist who is without a belief in god. An Atheist recognises that humans are responsible for human behaviours irrespective of who or what those humans seek to blame for their actions.

What I say in no way disproves the existence of God, but it does cast some doubt on whether or not the human perception of God is all that accurate.

Take care, TB. I hope I didn't offend you with my opinions.

Equally, an Atheist should not care to disprove what they do not believe.

And you didn't offend me Shirina... I'm not a god believer... my interest in such things is Mythological. A great deal can be learned about humanity from their mythological stories. Equally, I do not discount mythology in our quest for understanding in the way some others do... Human existence is nothing more than a series of stories told over the ages... as ever it will be.

by Shirina Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:30 am

Nor does it lend support to your claims of a 'universal' morality.

The first half of your rebuttal can be re-summed up as such: I stand by the argument that NO society or civilization has ever allowed indiscriminate, wholesale killing and murder of one citizen by another. The reason why I know this is because there cannot be a society or civilization if people can just kill randomly without there being the rule of law. Even in cases like Nazi Germany, the average citizen was not given liberty to kill Jews in the streets - even if that did sometimes happen. In fact, the average German citizen was relatively unaware of just how extreme Hitler's hatred of the Jews actually was. Thus is it is true that there are many historical examples of the government isolating a certain segment of the population and killing them, the actual killing fell to the government itself and its agents and not the private citizen. Are there exceptions? Sure. But those exceptions were in contravention of existing law. A case in point would be the lynching of blacks in the South. It was illegal to both murder and engage in vigilantism, but it still happened because the law was weakly enforced. Even so, blacks were not rounded up by the thousands and lynched indiscriminately.

The bottom line isn't about whether America has capital punishment or whether Romans raped and murdered during Saturnalia (in fact, Saturnalia was about the suspension of existing laws against murder temporarily - which means the laws existed, hence my point). It's the fact that no society has ever had a free-for-all anarchy-based structure.

War is not terrorism and terrorism is not War. I treated the subjects differently, but you have combined them as though they are one and the same.... that would be a flaw in your logic I am identifying there.

But they both have the same result, and that's the real issue. Even during war, there are laws and rules to follow. Terrorism generally has no rules, one thing that separates the two.

There are many examples from past and present where the society in question has no such laws, nor any need for such laws

What society or civilization had absolutely no laws against murder?

And how would this benefit society? I can't see that it will... the mainstream would trivialize great achievements... market it, advertise it, franchise it.

How would it benefit society? Seriously? Do you think knowing lots of great singers but few great scientists bodes well for the knowledge-base of our society? It's not that I disparage great entertainers, as you seem to think. I do disparage the disparity in knowledge between entertainment "heroes" and all other heroes. Who do your children look up to? Great statesmen, great scientists, great inventors, great scholars, or even great entrepreneurs? No. They look up to entertainers and sports figures ... many of whom are not very good role models. How many young girls worshiped Brittany Spears ... and now look at her.

You sound like a god believer pissed off with god.

No, I'm a former believer who lives in a nation always teetering on the threshold of becoming a religion-based fascist state. THAT has me pissed off .... and it pisses me off even more that this is all a result of clinging to Bronze Age superstitions. It's an embarrassment.

An Atheist recognises that humans are responsible for human behaviours irrespective of who or what those humans seek to blame for their actions.

Most Atheists are former believers like myself ... and besides, I'm an Agnostic, not a dyed-in-the-wool Atheist. I'm only an "Atheist" when it comes to our established religions. And I do find it mind-boggling, and exceptionally primitive, when we have all kinds of wars going on, from culture wars against gays to shooting wars between various Muslim factions, over nothing more than fantasy. I only talk of God being responsible as a way of "fighting from inside" their belief system and not because I truly believe their stories. And while an Atheist may believe that humans are responsible, many Christians in this country take it one step further by saying that natural disasters are the result of God's judgment of human behavior. What a great way to get the witch hunts going ... just like they did in the 1300's when the Black Death struck Europe. We just keep making the same mistakes without ever learning from history.

Equally, an Atheist should not care to disprove what they do not believe.

Oh no ... no, no, no, no. An Atheist should very much care. Atheists in this country should not only care, but be a little worried. Remember that our Christianity is not based on "love thy neighbor," it is based on "judge thy neighbor." That gives Atheists and Agnostics alike reason to disprove religion - we may not change the minds of die hard evangelicals, but for anyone sitting on the proverbial fence, our words can have a great impact.

by Bunnyrunner Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:11 am

Fascinating little read folks....

The bible as we know it was put together in the 15th century out of fragments of text, most of which, were not written conterminously. A Jew call Jesus may well have been born in Palestine but not when it was claimed. There is good evidence for at least 14 apostles, not 12. The whole book is littered with inaccuracies both historic and factual.

I am a militant atheist so won't join in with the discussion over who has the best imaginary friend.

by oftenwrong Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:59 am

There is a very simple rule of "Morality".

Do as you would be done by.

by polyglide Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:57 pm

There could be a lot of trouble involved, you only have to look around to see what some people like.

by ROB Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:44 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up
by oftenwrong Today at 9:59

There is a very simple rule of "Morality".

Do as you would be done by.

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Issues of morality shut Christians up
by RockOnBrother on Thu 2 Aug 2012 - 18:30
Greek Bible:

Matthew Chapters 5-7, Sermon on the Mount:

36. “In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

by oftenwrong Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:02 pm

Amen.

by Greatest I am Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:18 pm

Like it or not, God is immoral.

This clip shows how man has defined morality. I generally agree with it as it closely resembles the morality shown in all the holy books. I see them as closely resembling the golden rule.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

This clip show how what I see as a good representation of moral men judging God’s morality. I agree with their verdict and judge God to be immoral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI

From the above and from all that we know of God as depicted in the Bible, one can only conclude that God is immoral.

All those with intelligence who can discern moral actions from immoral actions will agree.

Moral actions for this exercise will be those issues where God interacts with humans.

If you do not agree that God is immoral from what you have heard above, then give your reason and I will show that God chose the immoral path in whatever action you choose to use as your example of his moral action. That or I will show that any of his altruistic acts are self-serving.

Regards
DL

by Tosh Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:38 pm

Since I do not believe the supernatural being commonly called God exists, I do not believe it has anything to do with morality, morality evolved just like everything else.

by Greatest I am Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:13 pm

Tosh wrote:Since I do not believe the supernatural being commonly called God exists, I do not believe it has anything to do with morality, morality evolved just like everything else.

I agree. It is hard wired into our survival instincts.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:53 pm

For God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral.

In doing so, God would be endorsing human sacrifice and the notion that punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is good justice. He would also be condoning suicide.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Substitutionary atonement is immoral according to scriptures and all other holy books that I know of. I think that the guilty should be punished and not an innocent human or even a man being ridden like a mule, ---- to use common jargon, --- by a God/Jesus. This is likely the moral reason why most Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah along with the fact that Jesus did not fulfill the other Jewish requirements set by their books and myths.

People are supposed to martyr themselves for their God, not their God martyr himself for them.

Do you agree that for God to condemn you just to die for you is ridiculous and immoral?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_fjBkwxc&feature=related

If you believe that substitutionary atonement is moral, please provide an argument to support your position.

===============================================

There are also ample quotes in scripture that speak against God wanting any sacrifice at all and if you embrace the notion of innocent blood atonement and God setting Jesus as the ransom for sins, then please view these for the real biblical perspective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

Regards
DL

by polyglide Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:43 pm

I do not know how present day man can be bothered about all the old taboos about killing the innocent and sacrifices etc.,

The only thing Jesus asked of us was to believe in him and nothing more.

As for God making a sacrifice of his son, mankind had to have a real lesson to consider, having sunk into depravity and false religions etc;

Instead of trying to bring up the long past we should consider the state of the world today which is heading straight towards the state when God had to interfere previously.

by Tosh Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:52 pm

I agree. It is hard wired into our survival instincts.

Morality in its most basic form is conflict avoidance, the greatest risk to a socialised human's survival is a fellow human.

by Greatest I am Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:54 pm

polyglide wrote:I do not know how present day man can be bothered about all the old taboos about killing the innocent and sacrifices etc.,

So you think we should be punishing the innocent?

The only thing Jesus asked of us was to believe in him and nothing more.

Him and his unworkable rhetoric and anti-love policies. Like his divorce one.

And if we do not then off to hell we go.

As for God making a sacrifice of his son, mankind had to have a real lesson to consider, having sunk into depravity and false religions etc;

So a lesson that it is good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty and human sacrifice are good moral lessons to you are they?

Instead of trying to bring up the long past we should consider the state of the world today which is heading straight towards the state when God had to interfere previously.

The world is in a better condition than it has ever been.
I track poverty, violent death and slavery.
All of these markers are the best they have ever been.

Regards
DL

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