Can God love? (Part 2)

by snowyflake Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

The problem we have is that we can only think in our limited terms , we do not know of any process that covers the universe but if we did it would be just as simple as us explaining to a child how a toy was made etc

Depends on how much education you have, how bright you are and whether or not you are willing to learn things that are outside your comfort zone in the search for the truth. The universe and all that is in it is a complex place.

All the atoms that make up you were created in the stars. We are stardust, poly. Smile

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990625080416.htm

by Norm Deplume Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:57 pm

polyglide wrote:
There is a cause, a reason and a purpose for everything, in my opinion you do not understand any of those.

You may have hit the nail on the head there. I do not understand any of your opinions.
Nor, indeed, the cause, reason or purpose of them. Perhaps you could explain more: begin by explaining the cause of your opinions.

by stuart torr Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:03 pm

Polyglide,maybe debate a little more as you did with myself, ie a little less on the religious side would help an awful lot, as I understood you perfectly without the religion friend.

by Dan Fante Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:11 pm

polyglide wrote:Oh dear Dan.

I wish I was aware how God created everything, then we would all be Christians and no faith would be involved.

I bet you do wish that. It doesn't make your claims any more substantial though.

polyglide wrote:
I have just read recently that scientists have experienced through the telescope both the demise and the birth of stars.

Now there must be some kind of intelligence involved previously, for this to occur.

That's an extraordinary claim. Carl Sagan said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" so let's have your evidence.

polyglide wrote:
The distance involved is beyond any understanding and could be only a small fraction of space as we call it, how can you understand thousands of light years when you consider the speed of light per second.

You're confusing understanding or expressing something with being able to relate to it in every day terms. I might not be able to picture a billion pounds but it doesn't mean that billionaires don't exist.

polyglide wrote:
There is no doubt that certain laws apply to the universe as they do on earth.

To suggest that these came about by chance is not sound thinking.

The first bit is probably true, the second bit requires reference to Carl Sagan again. I won't hold my breath on evidence being forthcoming though.

polyglide wrote:
If new stars are being created on a regular basis throughout the universe then there must be a reason and a cause and if based on certain laws, then the laws must have been created and not random.

Really? I can't think of many astronomers that would agree with that conclusion. Again, it's not based on any evidence.

polyglide wrote:
There is nothing dishonest in deciding to believe in God when you have considered the options available.

What is dishonest is not answering a simple question when you say you know the answer.

Belief in God requires faith. It's as simple as that. Honesty doesn't come into it really. The second line is ironic though, given you've dodged loads of questions on here when the answer doesn't fit your narrow world view.

by Shirina Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:34 pm

polyglide wrote:What is dishonest is not answering a simple question when you say you know the answer.

What is REALLY dishonest is using your argument for a creator as evidence for your RELIGION.

Even if there is a creator, even if the laws of the universe did not come about by chance, even if there is a purpose and an intelligence behind the life cycle of stars, there is NO reason ... NONE ... for me to pick up a Bible and believe in Christianity. None whatsoever.

Therefore, all of your arguments - ALL of them - are totally invalid and more or less irrelevant. Proving there is a creator does not prove the truth of your religion, yet you make that horrendous leap and then prance around trying to vindicate your religion through disproving evolution. Thus your entire premise for these arguments is one big falsehood, one massive leap of faith that lacks any supporting evidence.

There is a creator
The Christian God is a creator
Therefore,
The Creator is the Christian God

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:10 pm

polyglide wrote:

I have just read recently that scientists have experienced through the telescope both the demise and the birth of stars.

Now there must be some kind of intelligence involved previously, for this to occur.

Must there now, you'll be eager to provide some evidence then. While you're at it you may want to thumb through Genesis 1:16 and explain why it says:

16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."

Now perhaps you'd care to explain how God could've made ALL the stars, when we now know as a fact, you've stated it in your post as well, that stars have a finite life?

by Tosh Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:01 pm

If you are so sure you understand evolution, then without quoting other people explain just how a butterfly's life cycle came about, stage by stage.

I am sorry folks but this cretin does my head in, I am willing to fly this lunatic first class to Switzerland, one way of course.

by stuart torr Fri Nov 29, 2013 8:59 pm

What I cannot understand Heretic, is Shirina posting that there was a creator, when she is an atheist. I know she states that it does not lead to religion, but surely evolution has sorted that question out as it not.? :yeahthat:

by Shirina Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:48 am

Often times I argue against religion from within religion, and that can cause others to think I might be saying there is a creator. It's the best way, I think, to point out just how barmy their beliefs happen to be. It's also the best way to illustrate the weaknesses of those beliefs.

In the case of my last post, I was arguing hypothetically (which I should have made more clear - I was going out and wrote that post in a hurry).

Even assuming there was a creator, it does not validate any particular religious belief.

I've said many times that, if science ever proved that there was a creator, it would most likely be the beginning of one of the darkest eras in human history.

Why, might you ask?

Because every religion would be out in force to claim ownership of that creator. It would give rise to religious fanaticism the likes of which hasn't been seen in thousands of years; all of the various religions would end up at war with each other - most notably Islam and Christianity. The warfare these two religions are capable of unleashing can and probably would destroy much of civilization as we know it. All I can do is hope that, if humanity's days are numbered, we aren't taken out by self-destructive arguments over primitive god concepts. What a stupid way to die. My God is better than your God. Nuh uh! My God is better!

Talk about dumb ... dumb, dumb, dumb. Yet that is exactly what would happen if we ever discovered a creator that isn't wearing a clearly legible name tag identifying which god he happens to be.

As such, discussion in regards to leaping from "there is a creator" to "this creator is the god of my religion" isn't just an academic debate. It's dangerous and it has very real consequences.

What a lot of people don't know is that military analysts have said that the destruction of the Dome of the Rock is the most likely trigger for WWIII. According to Christian prophecy, Solomon's Temple must be rebuilt before the return of Jesus ... but the Dome of the Rock, a Muslim shrine, sits on the spot where the temple needs to be. There are plenty of wild-eyed fanatics who would think nothing of destroying the Muslim structure just to speed along armageddon and the return of Jesus. These people would WANT to see WWIII come about because they think it is necessary to fulfill their vague little prophecies. Now, imagine that danger coupled with the certain knowledge that there really IS a creator. There will literally be armies of religious zealots - zealots with nuclear weapons. I think you can see where I'm leading here.

by stuart torr Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:20 am

Very much so Shirina, now may I add you are one very clever lady.

by polyglide Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:47 am

I have never said that creation has stopped.

We do not know the extent of the universe or what other worlds [for want of a better word] there may be either inside or outside our universe, dark matter could involve things we do not and cannot understand,

Our small involvement in the universe is not enough to be able to calculate it in any terms we are able to understand.

But what is obvious is that there is order of some kind involoved and order does not come about by chance.

by Tosh Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:56 am

It is not obvious order does not come from chance.

by Bellatori Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:01 pm

Tosh wrote:It is not obvious order does not come from chance.

There is a game called LIFE invented by a brilliant mathematician called Conway. It has very simple rules. Actually only four...
It is played on a rectangular grid. You make an initial pattern and then apply the rules.

Any live cell with fewer than two live neighbours dies, as if caused by under-population.
Any live cell with two or three live neighbours lives on to the next generation.
Any live cell with more than three live neighbours dies, as if by overcrowding.
Any dead cell with exactly three live neighbours becomes a live cell, as if by reproduction.

It is quite mesmerising to watch a pattern grow and change. The point is that the pattern tat you start with can be fairly minimal but you can end up with an infinitely large one as a result. It is always thought that complexity means intricate and complicated rules. Clearly it does not.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:59 pm

polyglide wrote:But what is obvious is that there is order of some kind involoved and order does not come about by chance.

Yes it does, as you've been repeatedly told it's a mathematical certainty. You just choose to ignore this fact and sling puerile names instead, still one last time just for you:

The roll of a six sided dice is random, but if rolled enough times over enough time it will produce complex sequences. This is a mathematical certainty.

by Tosh Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:40 am

I wonder if " Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle " comes about by chance?

Nothing obvious about our universe.

by Bellatori Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:54 am

Tosh wrote:I wonder if " Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle " comes about by chance?

Nothing obvious about our universe.

Made me smile Smile

on this grey morning.

by Tosh Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:13 pm

As I said previously, if nothing counts as evidence against god's existence there is no evidence to test, any hypothesis that is based solely on untestable evidence is empty of any scientific content, in effect a bare assertion.

Anyone who is agnostic about bare assertions is needing his head looked, anyone who believes bare assertions is beyond help.

Creationism is like a magic roundabout, it keeps going round and round in ever decreasing circles, crazy crazy people.

by Shirina Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:58 pm

Tosh wrote:As I said previously, if nothing counts as evidence against god's existence there is no evidence to test, any hypothesis that is based solely on untestable evidence is empty of any scientific content, in effect a bare assertion.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.

by Tosh Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:30 pm

American audiences more likely to believe in God after watching BBC’s Planet Earth, study shows

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/american-audiences-more-likely-to-believe-in-god-after-watching-bbcs-planet-earth-study-shows-8966553.html

“Many historical accounts of religious epiphanies and revelations seem to involve the experience of being awe-struck by the beauty, strength or size of a divine being, and these experiences change the way people understand and think about the world.

“We wanted to test the exact opposite prediction: It’s not that the presence of the supernatural elicits awe, it’s that awe elicits the perception of the presence of the supernatural,” he said.

Someone wake polyglide up.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:06 pm

Shirina wrote:
Tosh wrote:As I said previously, if nothing counts as evidence against god's existence there is no evidence to test, any hypothesis that is based solely on untestable evidence is empty of any scientific content, in effect a bare assertion.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.

"The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more."

The Hitch..

and this, just for Polyglide and his "obvious" creation..

"By trying to adjust to the findings that it once tried so viciously to ban and repress, religion has only succeeded in restating the same questions that undermined it in earlier epochs. What kind of designer or creator is so wasteful and capricious and approximate? What kind of designer or creator is so cruel and indifferent? And—most of all—what kind of designer or creator only chooses to “reveal” himself to semi-stupefied peasants in desert regions?"

by Shirina Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:38 am

Tosh wrote:Someone wake polyglide up.

And then wake up the 270 million or so Americans that still cling to Bronze Age myths. Do you really want these people in control of the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet?

by Shirina Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:40 am

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:And—most of all—what kind of designer or creator only chooses to “reveal” himself to semi-stupefied peasants in desert regions?

Heh, I love that quote.

by polyglide Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:52 am

There are those who believe in evolution and those who believe in God.

Whilst there is no proof whatsoever that God does not exist there is ample proof that evolution is impossible, or at the very least disputable on sound evidence.

I can quote many facets of life that cannot be explained by evolution, our many emotions for one and the total lack of evidence as to the creating of life by natural means are numerous.

The means God used would be natural to him.

by Dan Fante Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:02 am

It gets a bit pointless trying to debate with someone who just cuts and pastes other people's material but you've taken it a step further by doing it with your old posts.

by polyglide Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:11 am

I quote no other people, I use all the available information as anyone else does, do you claim everything you say is original, or are you so arrogant that you feel others cannot evaluate all the information that is available to all, if they seek it.

Everyone learns from what is available to them and bases their ideas and beliefs on the same.

You have not come up with one idea of your own but repeatedly attempt to be funny and sarcastic, however, I have put down far superior and intelligent people than you, instead of being stupid try offering some sound answers to the questions I pose.

by Tosh Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:28 pm

however, I have put down far superior and intelligent people than you,

Enough, please stop, I am going to do myself an injury laughing at you, there is more chance of god existing than you putting down anyone with an IQ over 85.

by Dan Fante Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:34 pm

polyglide wrote:I quote no other people, I use all the available information as anyone else does, do you claim everything you say is original, or are you so arrogant that you feel others cannot evaluate all the information that is available to all, if they seek it.

Everyone learns from what is available to them and bases their ideas and beliefs on the same.

You have not come up with one idea of your own but repeatedly attempt to be funny and sarcastic, however, I have put down far superior and intelligent people than you, instead of being stupid try offering some sound answers to the questions I pose.

I was implying you were just repeating stuff you'd previously said.
Also, where have I claimed everything I say is original?
As well as that, you've avoided several questions on here by ignoring them. You're accusing me of doing the same, so (assuming you're not a liar - although we've already established you're a hypocrite), which questions have you posed which you feel I have refused to answer? The irony is you probably won't even answer this.

by Tosh Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:02 pm

Dan,

The law according to polyglide goes like this, if you cannot answer every question he asks then that proves god exists and evolution is false, but when he refuses to answer questions it proves god exists and evolution is false.

It is known as mental illness.

by Dan Fante Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:42 pm

Tosh wrote:Dan,

The law according to polyglide goes like this, if you cannot answer every question he asks then that proves god exists and evolution is false, but when he refuses to answer questions it proves god exists and evolution is false.

It is known as mental illness.

Aye, I suppose. A bit like how evolution cannot explain everything, therefore it's not a viable theory, but he knows god created everything even though he can't explain how Laughing

by stuart torr Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:01 pm

That means Dan, that god created Newcastle united then did he not. Laughing

by Dan Fante Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:05 pm

If he did, then he certainly has a warped sense of humour.

by stuart torr Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:22 pm

He's probably a man utd supporter that's why. Laughing

by Dan Fante Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:53 am

stuart torr wrote:He's probably a man utd supporter that's why.

The Red Devils? Wink

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:47 pm

Shirina wrote:
Tosh wrote:Someone wake polyglide up.
And then wake up the 270 million or so Americans that still cling to Bronze Age myths. Do you really want these people in control of the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet?

Well my preference would be they don't get to handle anything sharper than a soft rag, but hey ho. Armageddon anyone?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:56 pm

polyglide wrote:There are those who believe in evolution and those who believe in God.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Evolution requires no belief, it is as well evidenced as the theory of gravity, try denying that.
Whilst there is no proof whatsoever that God does not exist there is ample proof that evolution is impossible,
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Well there is no "proof" that unicorns don't exist, I suppose you believe in unicorns then, or is it special pleading? Not only is evolution possible, the evidence puts it beyond refute, for all but the most ignorant and subjective individual, which one are you? Though of course they're not mutually exclusive.
or at the very least disputable on sound evidence.

I can quote many facets of life that cannot be explained by evolution,
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:No you can't.
our many emotions for one
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:What about them? In what way are you claiming evolution can't explain them? What evidence have you to support that absurd assertion?
and the total lack of evidence as to the creating of life by natural means are numerous.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:How can a total lack of something be numerous? And what has that to do with evolution?
The means God used would be natural to him.
Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:There is no evidence that any god exists, you might as well be claiming that unicorns make good house pets.

by Shirina Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:06 am

polyglide wrote:Whilst there is no proof whatsoever that God does not exist

Wow, imagine if we tried murder cases that way.

*Cops walk up to polyglide while he's just minding his own business*

Cop: "You're under arrest for murder."

polyglide: "What? I didn't kill anyone!"

Cop: "Well, there's no proof that you didn't, so you're guilty. Now put your hands behind your back."

polyglide: "No, wait! I was in church when that murder took place. There were hundreds of witnesses, my prints are all over the pews, and I'm sure there is DNA evidence like skin cells that proves that I was there."

Cop: "Well, since you couldn't have murdered the victim if you were in church, it must mean you weren't in church - because the lack of evidence that you did the killing means you're guilty, and if you're guilty, you couldn't have been in church. So you're lying."

by polyglide Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:16 am

Shirina, I was beginning to think your medication for lack of intelligence was beginning to work, how wrong can a chap be.

Your reply to my statemant that there is no proof that God does not exist is laughable.

The policeman would be locked up as a madman and any jury would die of laughing.

by Dan Fante Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:19 am

I think you may have missed the point there, PG Laughing

Jesus wept.

by Shirina Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:25 am

polyglide wrote:Your reply to my statemant that there is no proof that God does not exist is laughable.

We do not gauge our reality that way in any other context. In every other facet of life, we demand evidence before we act upon something or before we regard information as being true or factual. I'm not going to suddenly chuck that reasoning out the window just because someone is telling me fantasy stories about Bronze Age desert tribal gods.

by polyglide Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:39 am

There is no proof how large the universe is but we know there must be an answer as there must be to other similar matters.

There is an accepted manner in which we put forward certain matters and the fact that thousands of people believe in God and the odd ones do not, gives those that do the right to say prove that God does not exist, just as they are right to ask the evolutionists top prove their claims etc;

I know, I know, it is realy hard to understand, do not ask, Dr Sheldon to explain he is as far off the mark as you.

by stuart torr Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:41 pm

No it is you that is way off the mark PG. headbang

by Tosh Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:44 pm

Nurse............he has got out again.

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