Food for thought

by polyglide Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:25 pm

I trust everyone reading this will take it as an unbiased reflection of the present situation and possible implications regarding faith.

There is much concern at the present time regarding young girls leaving home and joining the fighting in the belief that their faith demands it.

These are Muslim girls and one wonders why they would leave a so called better society to join in the fighting.

It should not be a secret what the parents of these girls teach their children as right from wrong, based on ther Koran.

These girls see day after day the way in which the vast majority of the youth of today behaves, along with the television and newspapers showing a long list of activities alien to the girls belief.

MP's lying, thieving and charged with the worst possible crimes of child abuse, 480 judges charged with crimes, parents killing their children, wives being beaten up, youths falling about and full of drugs etc;

This surely gives those Muslim's intent on brainwashing these poor girls to go to war, all the ammunition they need.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:47 pm

All the ammunition they need is in the pages of the Koran. Indoctrination of a child into a set of religious beliefs is perfectly legal unfortunately. Since the religious texts of both the Koran and the Bible advocate violence against those who don't share those faiths in various passages then radicalisation is all too easy where young naive suggestible and impressionable subjects are the target.

by boatlady Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:55 pm

To be fair, I do think the current political climate also has a bearing - there is a noticeable rise in racism, homophobia, right wing views of all types - I guess some young people might feel disenchanted and want to join what they may see as a 'pure' endeavour

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:44 pm

boatlady wrote:To be fair, I do think the current political climate also has a bearing - there is a noticeable rise in racism, homophobia, right wing views of all types - I guess some young people might feel disenchanted and want to join what they may see as a 'pure' endeavour

True enough, it's always easy for people with intolerant extreme views to push that agenda by appealing to people's base fears, and the current atmosphere is charged with all manner of prejudices riding on the back of genuine fears, but the odds of being harmed by radical Islam is still relatively small. I do think we ought to take a much keener interest in exactly what religion teaches children though. Unfortunately Labour under Tony Blair betrayed a long standing promise and set up state funded faith schools, an utter disgrace in my opinion.

by boatlady Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:21 pm

I have for many years had deep concerns about the teaching of religion in schools - and I have never approved of faith schools.

To my way of thinking, school is where we send children to learn the skills, knowledge and mental disciplines necessary to survive and prosper in the adult world and to make a contribution to the life of their community.
This could involve the teaching of ethics, but to my mind should not entail study of 'religious' texts with the aim of indoctrinating belief in a particular set of religious beliefs.

The place for religion is in church, or synagogue, mosque or temple, and the time for religious instruction is when the child has done with their primary task of learning the secular knowledge and skills - that is to say, evenings and weekends.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:27 pm

boatlady wrote:I have for many years had deep concerns about the teaching of religion in schools - and I have never approved of faith schools.

To my way of thinking, school is where we send children to learn the skills, knowledge and mental disciplines necessary to survive and prosper in the adult world and to make a contribution to the life of their community.
This could involve the teaching of ethics, but to my mind should not entail study of 'religious' texts with the aim of indoctrinating belief in a particular set of religious beliefs.

The place for religion is in church, or synagogue, mosque or temple, and the time for religious instruction is when the child has done with their primary task of learning the secular knowledge and skills - that is to say, evenings and weekends.

I agree, and I think that the main purpose of a child's education should be to teach them to think for themselves, and I don't think teaching them that absolute immutable truth was written into a single book thousands of years ago, and no evidence can change refute it is how you go about this.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:36 pm

polyglide wrote: These are Muslim girls and one wonders why they would leave a so called better society to join in the fighting. It should not be a secret what the parents of these girls teach their children as right from wrong, based on ther Koran.

Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:This strikes me as something of an assumption, I mean we have no way of knowing what an individuals parents have or have not taught them about right and wrong, and religious interpretations of their religions vague and often contradictory teachings are subjective so it could and probably does vary from family to family.

These girls see day after day the way in which the vast majority of the youth of today behaves, along with the television and newspapers showing a long list of activities alien to the girls belief.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Do they? This also strikes me as pure assumption, how do you know what these girls do or do not see, or how they view it?

MP's lying, thieving and charged with the worst possible crimes of child abuse, 480 judges charged with crimes, parents killing their children, wives being beaten up, youths falling about and full of drugs etc; This surely gives those Muslim's intent on brainwashing these poor girls to go to war, all the ammunition they need.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:I'd agree that young people can often be more suggestible, and therefore more vulnerable to religious indoctrination, which is why I think religion ought not be taught to children, until they have had a chance to experience a little of life and are equipped to deal with such complex ideas. /quote]

by stuart torr Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:18 pm

We would agree would we not Sheldon, that it would be better for children to be taught religion either at home or at church? as and when they have lived some of life so that they can have an opinion on such matters.
I think that most religions would have different ideas as to what age that would be,do you not think?

by Phillip J H Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:42 pm

The worst faith is the Catholic faith imo.

I was brought up with it and carried on with it until i was fifteen and then i left.

All faith is full of hypocrisy, and especially it's true to say that the catholic church is full of paedophiles. I had a lucky escape as i was street wise enough to tell the wanker priest to eff off when he tried it on with me.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:22 pm

stuart torr wrote:We would agree would we not Sheldon, that it would be better for children to be taught religion either at home or at church? as and when they have lived some of life so that they can have an opinion on such matters.
I think that most religions would have different ideas as to what age that would be,do you not think?

Well stu we legislate to stop children being exposed to alcohol and tobacco until they're old enough, and I personally would like to see similar restrictions on proselytising children. Though of course I don't hold much hope and recognise that I am probably in a minority with this view. I'd certainly settle for the abolition of faith schools, and removing religion from a child's state funded education. I'd have no objection to it being taught as part of human history and in a secular context, that's to say not taught as if it was factually true.

by stuart torr Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:57 pm

That sounds about right to me Sheldon.

by Phillip J H Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:57 pm

It's very strange when you are required to go to confession in a catholic church and you have to stuggle to think about something that you had done wrong Laughing

Then you think about some kind of minor issue, then you have to recite three hail mary's etc..etc..blah..blah..

I was never required to recite the bloody rosary, we were never taught that one because that was the one for the biggest crimes that was probably reserved for the priests!

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:49 am

I imagine the Christian obsession with guilt and sin has to be appeased somehow. No one can carry a guilt obsession like that for long, it's unhealthy. The problem is that instead of a healthy attitude towards human fallibility they have an unhealthy puritanical obsession with the human sex drive. Of course once you accept the absurd idea that any crime can be immediately "forgiven" or expunged by a celestial "get out of jail free card," it's only a matter of time before some people draw the logical conclusion that they can behave as they please, feel contrition afterwards and thus be absolved of any culpability.

It's a recipe for disaster if you ask me, but then any ideology or theology that asks a person to subjugate their will to a "big other" whether it be a deity, religion, political ideology or leader, is taking the first step to dehumanising people who are then free to commit any crime without empathetic notions of guilt or remorse. A brief read of the bible or the koran can confirm this.

Of course this doesn't only apply to theistic religious belief, that's just one example, and of course I'm not suggesting that all theists are the same in this respect as there are quite obviously decent people who are theists, just as there are decent people who are not.

by stuart torr Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:15 pm

Exactly Sheldon, but mention that you are an atheist to persons that believe in God and for some reason it seems to get their hackles up does it not?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:05 pm

stuart torr wrote:Exactly Sheldon, but mention that you are an atheist to persons that believe in God and for some reason it seems to get their hackles up does it not?

Well it certainly hasn't brought the best out in polyglide as his recent histrionics show. It appears some theists can't resist shooting the messenger so to speak. I suppose the more intelligent the theist the less likely their apologetics are to be based on personal attacks. Though even theists with above average intellects sometimes seem unable to seperate an attack on their beliefs from a personal attack on them. The lesser intellects of course have little in the way of cogent argument so are more prone to use ad hominem in place of reasoned argument.

by stuart torr Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:13 pm

Which in a way is a shame is it not Sheldon, because you know myself very well, and I am more than happy to discuss any subject with anybody.
As long as they do try to understand our side as we try to understand theirs.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:51 pm

stuart torr wrote:Which in a way is a shame is it not Sheldon, because you know myself very well, and I am more than happy to discuss any subject with anybody.
As long as they do try to understand our side as we try to understand theirs.

I'd settle for him sticking to the discussion and leaving the childish insults alone, but every time someone makes a critical comment on his beliefs or claims he resorts to personal insults. The problem is that his arguments are demonstrably weak, and he appears unaware of this, he seems to genuinely think the people who disagree with him are doing so from ignorance. He also seems unable to recognise the difference between a criticism of his claims beliefs and arguments, and the desperate ad hominem he resorts to. The threads in this part of the forum are riddled with him accusing other posters of lacking intelligence, lacking common sense, lacking the ability to understand, and some far nastier comments. Seriously just open any thread and scroll through until you see one of his posts then follow the discourse and I guarantee it won't be more than two or three posts before he resorts to petty ad hominem, and then makes some snide comment about them dishing it out, which of course they haven't.

Page 1 of this thread and he insults Shirina.

Re: Religious fascism or just common sense?
Post by polyglide on Fri May 04, 2012 12:23 pm

And I was begining to think Shirina had at least a bit of common sense

After he'd insulted AwfulTruth of course.

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:37 pm

It is clearly apparent that you have a problem with being homosexual,

Here he aims a general insult at everyone who disagrees with him, including the moderators for warning him about his homophobia.

by polyglide on Wed May 16, 2012 12:21 pm

You can always tell when someone is unable to respond in an intelligent manner they resort to insults and childish comments, I think I may be wrong regarding them getting their ideas from the Dandy and the Beano, I think both beyond their understanding and they should just lower their reading material.

I wonder if he even realises how ironic this post is, where he claims people unable to respond intelligently resort to insults and childish comments, then in the same sentence does both?

It's reassuring here to see he's used the same bizarre and spurious claim on everyone who points out his scientific illiteracy

Post by polyglide on Sat May 26, 2012 12:48 pm

Sherina you have long ago made it very clear you have no idea what science realy means and it is obvious it is going to be a long haul to attempt to make you understand even the most simple form.

A little prompting from Shirina and he offers this hilarious definition of science

Post by polyglide on Tue May 29, 2012 3:25 pm

OK. I will explain exactly what science is.

Science involves nothing more than what some people think may be the answer to a problem that is presently unsolved.

I'm almost embarrassed for anyone who would make such a statement in public, and genuinely think they are making a credible claim.

Now in a different thread, and the same theme and methods are all too obvious.

Post by polyglide on Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:32 pm

Shirina, as usual you come up with nonsense.

Now it's Tosh's turn.

Post by polyglide on Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:05 pm

You need common sense and the powers of reasoning to appreciate the difference between intelligent debate and idiotic comments and sady, sadly, sadly, you are adept at the silly comments but devoid of the others.

I can't be bothered to dig out the many petty insults he's directed at me, but it seems he has little else, and nothing in the way of cogent polemic, or well reasoned logic.

by stuart torr Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:05 pm

To have a go at Shirina is awful,as Shirina was one of the nicest people on the forum, and one of the more intellegent too, who was he being homophobic about Sheldon as I could not tell from your post.? and I thought that would have been cracked down upon straight away.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:21 am

Shirina saw through his petty insults, as has everyone else, and laughed at his pretentions to intellectual superiority. As I said before I'd be inclined towards sympathy if he didn't so easily and so often resort to ad hominem.

His arguments, if you can call them that, amount to little more than a long tedious list of his bizarre beliefs. Though he seems unable to differentiate between what he believes to be true and what represents evidence.

I've noticed other theists do this to a certain extent, and when asked to evidence a claim or belief they simply try to prop it up with another unevidenced claim. On and on creating circular arguments they seem wholly unaware of.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:15 am

Polyglide wrote: There is much concern at the present time regarding young girls leaving home and joining the fighting in the belief that their faith demands it. This surely gives those Muslim's intent on brainwashing these poor girls to go to war, all the ammunition they need.

Their faith does demand it though, as can be easily evidenced by reading the Koran (See below). The brainwashing occurs earlier when they're indoctrinated into believing ancient superstitions based on faith. If they believe the Koran is the word of God then what logical argument can be presented to ignore it's demands? Christianity is steeped in blood and prejudice for much the same reason.

The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone.

by boatlady Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:39 am

I'm not sure what an extended post mortem of Polyglide's comments is designed to achieve here.
This thread seemed to be evolving into a discussion about the rights and wrongs of teaching religion in schools, and reflections on the proper age and way to introduce ideas about spirituality, ethics and religion to children and young people.

This might have entailed reflections on our own experiences, or perhaps more abstract conversations about philosophical concepts, which might have been interesting.

We could even have had a discussion, with facts, about the nature of Islam - what the Quran actually says, how various commentators have interpreted the scripture, how the practice of Islam may be affected by the social circumstances and local culture of practitioners - this could be extended to reflections on other world religions. We could use the opportunity perhaps to try and achieve some level of understanding of differing viewpoints. The title of the thread certainly suggests this may have been what Polyglide hoped for.

I'm not sure there's much universal appeal in simply hashing over the full list of foolish things one member has said - especially as he does not seem to be visiting the thread to defend himself.

Just a thought ----

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:50 am

Fair enough, though to be fair my last post returned to topic though.

by boatlady Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:22 pm

Definitely heading that way

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:34 pm

Well I find it an odd logic that claims it's brainwashing someone to follow quite specific commands from an all powerful deity, when it's obvious that convincing them that these commands are from such a deity in the first place is where the brainwashing occurs. Either the scriptures are the immutable words of a deity or they're not, and my own position here is clear by now I hope, but to claim they are then claim they're wrong is spurious logic if ever there were any.

by stuart torr Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:17 pm

I personally believe that the Quran is one of the worst religious books for inciting violence in the word of allah for allah, you would not see the same inciting in the christian Bible would you?

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:46 pm

stuart torr wrote:I personally believe that the Quran is one of the worst religious books for inciting violence in the word of allah for allah, you would not see the same inciting in the christian Bible would you?

I think the book is harmless without the belief that it is sanctioned by an all powerful deity stu, that's the point I was making. I find quite a lot of the bible and the koran repugnant, and the idea that the behaviour and actions in there are required by a deity that is omniscient omnipotent yet omni benevolent is something I find totally absurd. I think without the brainwashing and indoctrination that makes people believe these books are the immutable words of a deity people would see these books for what they are, antiquated myths, that are frankly ridiculous, and though there are a few beautiful passages and some parts that are quite profound there is nothing in there that couldn't have been imagined and written entirely by humans, with nothing supernatural, let alone omniscient required.

by boatlady Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:13 pm

you would not see the same inciting in the christian Bible would you?

I think maybe in making this point, you have to consider that the Christian Bible also includes the Old Testament - full of recommendations to smite people and destroy whole communities - best have a look at that before making the assertion that the Quran is uniquely violent

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:21 pm

I'd have to agree, I think there may be an argument that the violence in the koran is more open ended as it doesn't seem to be contextualised by the era it was written in, but as I have already said the real problem is the belief that these amoral actions are sanctioned by the "all powerful all knowledgeable creator of the universe. Without the belief, the blind faith that they are, as polyglide claimed on here to be, 100% certain in it's validity then it would be no more insidious than any other book.

by boatlady Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:23 pm

I think maybe the problem is that we can all experience a certainty of a spiritual dimension to our lives - a sense of the 'numinous' if you will - for some of us the journey from this very private sense of a spiritual life to the mindless acceptance of 'Holy Scripture' is very short and completely unexamined

by Phillip J H Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:14 pm

Hi Boatlady Smile

Have you ever experienced poltaguiest activities etc?

My family and i experienced that sort of thing in a house that we used to live in and we were all very different age groups.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:17 pm

boatlady wrote:I think maybe the problem is that we can all experience a certainty of a spiritual dimension to our lives - a sense of the 'numinous' if you will - for some of us the journey from this very private sense of a spiritual life to the mindless acceptance of 'Holy Scripture' is very short and completely unexamined

If I'm being particularity critical, and lets face it I am, then faith doesn't exactly encourage critical examination of much at all, and definitely not of a spiritual 'journey' and why would it? The purpose of religions may have originally been to lend gravitas to human laws, or to guess at answers to questions which early humans could ONLY guess at. At the point that the 'meme' went monotheistic you certainly get the sense that religion became almost self serving, a little like 'skynet' becoming self aware in the terminator films for want of a better analogy.

I'm not a philosopher of course, as I'm sure I don't need to point out, but epistemologically speaking we can't be 100% certain about anything. I do think that any idea that demands faith, and therefore avoids critical analysis of and even any criticism of it's claims, ideas, and beliefs, or simply ignores or denies any facts or evidence that contradicts that faith has no validity at all. There must be a reason so many theists dispute scientific facts after all.

by Phillip J H Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:21 pm

Energy has to go somewhere when we die. I'm convinced of that fact.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:44 pm

Phillip J H wrote:Energy has to go somewhere when we die. I'm convinced of that fact.

I'd imagine our physical bodies convert into biochemical energy, This is then converted by the ceaseless action of nature (and increasing entropy) to other forms. Whether that is oxidation (redox), decomposition (burial) or combustion, which then release the energy to other forms (and 'vessels').

by Phillip J H Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:00 pm

...So what do you think about doors opening on their own when the latch is firmly secure.

....A mattress that you are sleeping on that has a fist like action pumelling it from underneath and experieneced by two generations of one family and only in that room.

Ghostly apparitions in another room, that was experienced by my mother.

Tbf....We all only really talked about it in depth many years later.

...Apart from the latest episodes where my brother had two watches that stopped at the exact time of my mothers funeral ending in Spain. (He's a computer graduate that rarely drinks)

Oh and my partner and i were in the house in Spain where my mother died, and the door to my mums bedroom being secured and opening on it's own.

My partner is T total!

by Phillip J H Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:03 pm

....Noises as well from that room and again could not be explained.

by stuart torr Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:23 am

These things can never be explained Phil, why they happen no-one knows.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:19 am

I view such claims with a healthy amount of scepticism as should we all, including those who experience them. Leaping unevidenced to supernatural causation seems to be a human trait, but how many times have humans assumed supernatural causation for things only for science to show it has a perfectly natural eplanation.

People should also learn to doubt their own senses, as these are too easily deceived even where more than one person claims to have experienced the same thing.

I'm afraid that asking someone to explain such claims after the fact is pretty pointless as well. I mean if you have no rational explanation and you were there then without proper evidence to test these occurrences the n nothing can be assumed, least of all supernatural causation.

It's also worth noting that our minds look for connections in everything we see which is why patterns 'seem' to emerge for no reason. The fact is these often are coincidences and that is what makes them seem remarkable to us.

by boatlady Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:56 am

Two separate visitors to my rather old little house have told me they met a lady at the top of the stairs (who doesn't live here) - a spirit presence, if you like.
The spot where they met her is the exact spot where the previous owner had a bad fall and broke her hip. She died in hospital several days later, but had lain unconscious at the top of the stairs for several hours before anyone found her.
My husband, while lying in the bath, has heard someone moving around in the bedroom next door, where the lady slept while alive - it wasn't me and no-one else lives here.
When I moved into the house, I had a strong sense of being welcomed in and I have never felt at all nervous, even though I live in a difficult part of town, where we have had more than one violent incident very nearby, including two murders.

I've never been sure just what to make of these phenomena, but I confess one day, when I was alone in the house, I did go to the top of the stairs and speak to Ivy thanking her for her friendship and protection and giving her leave, if she wants, to move on.

One day I will ask my 'psychic' friend round, and see if she still senses the presence at the top of the stairs.

by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:09 am

Mussstttt noootttt commenntttt.

Very Happy

I'm going to need a pinch of salt, old cynic that I am. The old man who owned my house before me died in the front room apparently. I've lived here now for 20+ years and sometimes when it's dark and I'm alone I fancy I hear creaking sounds. Almost as if the heating is expanding the floor boards against each other and the nails securing them. A few times doors have inexplicably shut themselves, almost as if a sudden draft has moved them on their hinges. Once or twice they only moved a little and creaked eerily, exactly like the sound of two seperate metal hinges grinding slowly against each other and the pin that holds them together.

The most bizarre thing is that often I'll put something down in one place only for it to appear in a completely different place, and my wife swears she hasn't touched it!

Sorry, I but I literally couldn't help myself, perhaps I'm possessed by one of Polyglide's demons?

Wink

by boatlady Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:34 am

I just keep an open mind - did no harm to have a little chat with what might have been the 'spirit' of the previous owner - and if she was really 'stuck' here, maybe I helped her on

In any case, whatever the reason, I have a home where I'm really happy and comfortable - more than many can say

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