Food for thought

First topic message reminder :

I trust everyone reading this will take it as an unbiased reflection of the present situation and possible implications regarding faith.

There is much concern at the present time regarding young girls leaving home and joining the fighting in the belief that their faith demands it.

These are Muslim girls and one wonders why they would leave a so called better society to join in the fighting.


It should not be a secret what the parents of these girls teach their children as right from wrong, based on ther Koran.

These girls see day after day the way in which the vast majority of the youth of today behaves, along with the television and newspapers showing a long list of activities alien to the girls belief.

MP's lying, thieving and charged with the worst possible crimes of child abuse, 480 judges charged with crimes, parents killing their children, wives being beaten up, youths falling about and full of drugs etc;

This surely gives those Muslim's intent on brainwashing these poor girls to go to war, all the ammunition they need.

stuart torr wrote:Maybe just being racist now Sheldon, we never know with him do we?

I doubt that to be honest, I think he just has a problem with modern developed societies and how they differ from what he believes they should be, based on his own slant on Christianity. His posts suggest that despite his claims about his beliefs he is deeply dissatisfied with life and indicate a very frustrated and person whose anger is often all too evident when others disagree with him and his beliefs.

Polyglide wrote:There are thousands of examples of spirit activity many having several credible witnesses, each one points to activity we do not understand,

This argumentum ad populum again, and what's the point of claiming there are thousands if you can't even cite one when asked to do so? The credibility of a witness doesn't prove the claim, eye witness testimony is known to be extremely unreliable, even when several people witness an event simultaneously, but again since you don't say what the event was, don't name even one of these credible witnesses, and cite no evidence to corroborate this witness testimony then this claim speaks for itself, Hitchen's razor - slash. You end by actually contradicting your own claim defining what was seen by stating that it was in fact just something we can't understand. Humans couldn't understand lightning until just a few hundred years ago when science explained it, and guess what, humans explained it incorrectly as you always do by guessing it had a supernatural cause. Humans have done this throughout human history and since the rise of the methods of empirical science we can now see how spurious such reasoning is.

Polyglide wrote:  You need only one to be verifiable under the terms humans use to do so, for there to be no neccesity to deny the fact that they exist.

The problem is that not one has been properly verified ever. Though I love your double standard for evidence here given your denial of scientific facts that have been verified by hundreds of thousands of separate pieces of evidence.

Polyglide wrote:You cannot see many things but we know they exist and the facts known to date indicate that there are spirit creatures [for want of another word]

   

No they don't. Hitchen's razor again - slash. Unless of course you'd care to share a single fact that does this, as so far you've offered naught but bare assertion and logical fallacy.

Polyglide wrote:I asked you to log on to spirit creatures and it may just improve your education on this matter.  

It's your claim, so YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT, no one has to scour the internet for you, why can't you grasp this most basic premise with your all your self proclaimed expertise in debating? Besides you can view any number of whackadoo claims online I showed you a site claiming mermaids existed, it seems you are determined to soldier on with this line of polemic long after you've been shown how absurd it is.

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHWA_enGB609GB609&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=unicorns%20exist

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHWA_enGB609GB609&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=mermaids%20exist

A couple of Google searches and hey presto your claim just validated the existence of mermaids and unicorns, and from multiple sources.

He is beginning to sound like a poster that I knew on another forum, depending on which church and belief they have, rules what they believe from other posters.

So you think that maybe he would prefer to live in the past more where life was much simpler, and people went to church every sunday before roast dinner ETC,
MAYBE HE WILL COME AND ANSWER.

Stu,
Anyone who thinks mankind is the most advanced form of life in the universe, taking into acount just what that involves, needs some counselling.

The study of the paranormal is as much a science as anything else.

Those involved do not believe in Mermaids or any other mythical creature.

They study actaul cases of spirit intervention.

Case by case and under strict terms.

Their conclusions in many instances are that there is no doubt that their is a spirit world.

If you want particular cases just log on to the spirit world.

As I have explained previously the www's etc are too small for me to provide you with, just log on to the above.

Stu,
I have no intention to slander you, I just point out in clear terms your inability to understand what is written.

boatlady,
The lastest publication was the Sun newspaper, the content explained the terror a little girl and her family suffered over a prolonged period from a spirit creature.

This was also witnessed by several independant people after it was brought to light and those qualified to consider such events were all of the same opinion, the events were due to spiritual activity.

The case is going to be made into a film.

There are numerous other instances explained if you log on to spirit creatures.

If you have a blank mind on some things you are unable to consider anything other that your own thoughts, which makes communication difficult.

I consider evolution, give clear a explanation of it and how it works etc;

Then I consider everything else and come to conclusions, I dismiss nothing without considering them.

My only concern is how life started, it's purpose, the who, the why and the when.

If you can contribute in any reasonable manner then please do so.

I am not interested in petty point scoring I am more interested in having answers to the real questions.

However, I can hold my own in point scoring if that is what you want.

Polyglide wrote: The study of the paranormal is as much a science as anything else.

Nonsense. science is defined as the study of the physical world and universe. Your claim is laughably wrong.

Also in that newspaper Sheldon?

Polyglide wrote: The lastest publication was the Sun newspaper, the content explained the terror a little girl and her family suffered over a prolonged period from a spirit creature.

This was also witnessed by several independant people after it was brought to light and those qualified to consider such events were all of the same opinion, the events were due to spiritual activity.

The case is going to be made into a film.

So you can't actually cite even one piece of valid evidence, Quelle surprise.

The Sun newspaper, and a film you say. Well it doesn't get more factual than tawdry duplicitous tabloids and the movies does it.

You really haven't a clue have you? Not one tiny itty bitty shred of a clue. It's hokum superstitious nonsense. If something is unexplained then that is precisely what it remains until proper evidence is validated by rigorous scientific scrutiny.

I don't see any peer reviewed publications cited in your post, I wonder why.

Previous post to that Sheldon he says he has no wish to slander me, but what does he do in the next statement? slander slander slander.
I am slightly annoyed that nothing is done about it,would you not be?
I am sure the admin team would if it was said about them.

The admin staff also get "slightly annoyed" when they're criticised (or even sworn at) on open threads. As we’ve said on many previous occasions, there are personal messages which can be used for making complaints.

Slander is defamation of character, usually of a malicious nature. If it’s written, it becomes libel. If you write that someone is a paedophile, drug trafficker, murderer, rapist etc, that’s libel. Questioning someone’s intellect or understanding is neither slander (if spoken) nor libel (if written), but then neither is highlighting someone’s “woeful illiteracy” or comparing them to a small child. It amounts to rudeness and it does become unacceptable if it occurs with regularity. However, most of this appears to be six of one and half a dozen of the other!

Maybe there should come a point where posters just present a rational and scientific argument to refute creationist remarks, and then leave it for the readers to decide who is talking sense? Too many of these threads are in danger of becoming little more than ad hominem attacks on one member, almost tantamount to bullying, something which is particularly unacceptable in the opening post of a new thread (which I’ve edited).

Perhaps you could all just try to play the ball and not the man, please!

I am more interested in having answers to the real questions.

Sadly, PG, we pretend only to discuss ideas and to share knowledge and insights - this is a discussion forum.
Answers to the 'real questions' - I dunno - I don't even know what the 'real questions' are.

In relation to the story in the Sun - I didn't see it. Maybe you could describe in a bit more detail what claims have been made and by whom. I'm not disposed to take the Sun very seriously as a source of information, but if people are describing a negative and frightening spiritual experience and those qualified to consider such events have given a view, maybe we would all be interested to engage with you in a consideration of the incident.

If you have read my previous posts you will see I have an open mind on such matters.

Boatlady wrote: I'm not disposed to take the Sun very seriously as a source of information,

Well I'm inclined to disbelieve every word of it (edit: The Sun I mean), but then I don't hold tabloid newspapers in much regard, and haven't bought one since the miners strike. I occasionally flip through any discarded papers in work just to make sure that tabloid journalism hasn't undergone a paradigm shift in content quality and journalistic integrity, so far this has not been the case. The stories still favour titillation over accuracy, and if this subject matter is going to be objectively scrutinised I'm pretty sure a tabloid newspaper is not the proper format. In fact the cynic in me suspects that a tabloid of The Sun's ilk is the perfect format for it.

However as I said before if anyone can present anything approaching proper evidence I'm happy to discuss it, though I'm not sure what constitutes proper evidence for something there isn't even a clear definition of beyond it being supernatural and inexplicable. I mean how would such evidence be falsified?

Even a detailed account might be a start of a conversation - and that would be nice

boatlady wrote:Even a detailed account might be a start of a conversation - and that would be nice

It'd certainly provide something beyond bare assertion anyway. Well I'm up 05:30 tomorrow so bed for me, hopefully the demons and evil spirits will let me alone to have a good night's sleep.

Everything went bump in the night for me,but only the upstairs neighbours again.

boatlady,
The article explained the experiences a little girl had which included being throw out of bed and up in the air, articles thrown about and many other odd occurances,

These were reported and investigated.

Those carrying out the investigation, also others independant of the household concerned, also witnessed events that were beyond normal explanation.

No doubt when the film comes out you can make a more calculated opinion.

boatlady,
Just as a matter of interest I logged on to spirit matters and there are many examples of unexpained occurances.

Perhaps it may be interesting for you to look at a few.

I cannot give the web sites as the lettering is too small for me to read.

As I said they, be be interesting.

may be

Polyglide wrote: Those carrying out the investigation, also others independant of the household concerned, also witnessed events that were beyond normal explanation.

No doubt when the film comes out you can make a more calculated opinion.

Who were these investigators? What were their qualifications? Where is their research published? Was their work peer reviewed and if so by whom?

This does not constitute compelling evidence at all. I can only assume the last sentence is an attempt at humour?

I know a couple of times a week Sheldon, I suddenly go rigid, then my arms and legs start getting thrashed about, before occasionally I get thrown out of bed. It has been observed by doctors at my hospital, and 3 other hospitals, but it is known as Epilepsy, for which I take so much medication I rattle when I walk.

stuart torr wrote:I know a couple of times a week Sheldon, I suddenly go rigid, then my arms and legs start getting thrashed about, before occasionally I get thrown out of bed. It has been observed by doctors at my hospital, and 3 other hospitals, but it is known as Epilepsy, for which I take so much medication I rattle when I walk.

So you're saying that something that would appear remarkably strange and unnatural to someone who couldn't explain it does in fact have a perfectly natural explanation discovered by science?

Well well, I wonder if this has ever happened before?

I never tire of people saying they can't explain something, so therefore it must be........some people just never will learn to stop at the first part of that sentence until they can explain it with proper evidence that stands up to scrutiny. It's fairly obvious that many humans have a propensity for believing this stuff, and I suppose that's up to them, but claiming everything they can't explain as evidence is just absurd given how many times science has reversed precisely such claims in the past.

Of course one way around this would be to pretend that science has never done this, and that wherever it has occurred science is either in the wrong or doesn't in fact validate scientific facts like evolution but something entirely abstract from it that you imagine it does, as Polyglide's posts do almost all the time, moving remarkably and seamlessly from one positions to the other without any kind of cognitive dissonance apparently.

Well to onlookers Sheldon, when I am totally unconcious and all this is happening, it must look pretty strange, but when I come round I just say to myself another one, then have to try and sleep the headache and aches and pains off.

stuart torr wrote:I know a couple of times a week Sheldon, I suddenly go rigid, then my arms and legs start getting thrashed about, before occasionally I get thrown out of bed. It has been observed by doctors at my hospital, and 3 other hospitals, but it is known as Epilepsy, for which I take so much medication I rattle when I walk.

Wasn't MBen of the opinion that it was actually demonic possession just like wot it says in the Bible?

Well Norm now I have become posessed by demons for 20years, wish I knew all their names.

Well visited by demons, I will have to tell my specialist when I see him next, and see what he says, probably send me to a psychiatric unit next, nevermind.

boatlady,
The events that I referred to previously were again mentioned in the Daily Mirror last Saturday.

Also on the same Saturday night there was a programme on the television that explained a similar event in America, those involved inicially were terrified as were others not previously involved.

Of course there are people who suffer fits etc; which is very sad but explainable, however, these were not examples of events that could be put down to anything presently known.

The conclusion was from the hypothisis used and the experts in the field involved that there was indeed spirit creaters involved.

Polyglide wrote:these were not examples of events that could be put down to anything presently known.

Then how exactly can your "experts" form any conclusions? You still haven't named any of these "experts" or cited any research of any kind?

If you're going to make claims like this and don't want them dismissed out of hand then this is the very least you'd need to do.

boatlady,
So that you cannot be mislead by those who are unfortunately blind to the basics of anything and only deal in theories, the scientists involved used all the present up to date technical equipment that detects the change in magnetic fields etc; and they were satisfied that they did in fact locate the presence of a spirit creature.

A person who had previously been as sceptical as some on this site was so frightened that he said there is no doubt whatsoever that spirit creatures were all around.

There are numerous experiments that have taken place and been shown on television and also you can log on to spirit creatures where you will find both verified cases and others not so.

Polyglide wrote: the scientists involved used all the present up to date technical equipment that detects the change in magnetic fields etc; and they were satisfied that they did in fact locate the presence of a spirit creature.

That's odd I've searched all the news channels and the Internet and there's no mention of this??

You're fibbing aren't you? Tut tut....

Never mind poly just name the Nobel prize winning scientists involved, link the research, and the peer reviewed scientific journal that published their findings.

Why bother making up such obvious lie, do you really think any half intelligent reader will be fooled?

Polyglide wrote: There are numerous experiments that have taken place and been shown on television and also you can log on to spirit creatures where you will find both verified cases and others not so.

Pseudoscientific nonsense though, or perhaps you can actually cite the peer reviewed publication to confirm your hilarious hobgoblin tale?

Only a delusional nut job thinks this hokum represents evidence for the supernatural, let alone scientific evidence.

Hilarious stuff......

Any names yet polyglide? Or are these discoverers of proof of the supernatural to remain inexplicably and conspicuously anonymous?

Your posts are getting funnier....

polyglide wrote:
the scientists involved used all the present up to date technical equipment that detects the change in magnetic  fields etc; and they were satisfied that they did in fact locate the presence of a spirit creature.

This must be another of your wind-ups.

Polyglide - you haven't yet told me anything - so we can't really have a conversation about what you think or what you have evidence of

Norm Deplume wrote:

polyglide wrote:
 the scientists involved used all the present up to date technical equipment that detects the change in magnetic  fields etc; and they were satisfied that they did in fact locate the presence of a spirit creature.

This must be another of your wind-ups.

You'd have to hope so, but sadly I fear not.

boatlady wrote:Polyglide - you haven't yet told me anything - so we can't really have a conversation about what you think or what you have evidence of

In fairness I've been saying this from day 1, and not just on this topic. He preaches, he makes claims, he tells anyone who disagrees with hi that they don't understand something which he's usually quite vague about, he ignores everything you say in response beyond the broadest possible acknowledgement that you have responded. Then he proceeds to more overt comments on the intellect of those who disagree with him, eventually resorting to blatant ad hominem.

It's a well worn pattern, just start any of the threads in here and see for yourself.

I'll just reiterate my earlier point here as polyglide is ignoring it for what we must conclude are fairly obvious reasons.

You still haven't named any of these "experts" or cited any research of any kind? If you're going to make claims like this and don't want them dismissed out of hand then this is the very least you'd need to do.

I'm pretty sure you can't satisfy this basic requirement of course, but as long as you are prepared to dishonestly claim you have scientific evidence I'll keep pointing out that you have no such thing.

Alas this could go on forever i'm afraid.

stuart torr wrote:Alas this could go on forever i'm afraid.

Not if he's 80 now.

Anyway the speed with which science is dismantling theism is mighty impressive. So who knows what another 100 years can achieve. I'm not overly cynical, and unlike theists I don't get wet at the thought of an apocalyptic end to our species.