Migrants entering Europe

Blair and Bush have a lot to answer for. Their actions have led to an increase in terrorism and the recruitment of terrorists, and because of that we now have people fleeing their homelands and flooding into Europe.

The UK cannot really complain about these refugees turning up here because, through Blair's decisions, we are largely responsible for their unfortunate situations. I wonder if it pricks Blair's conscience when he sees people dying in the back of lorries, or drowning at sea.

I'm sure he's never made the connection

I'm sure he hasn't, boatlady.

Fortunately, he has moved on and doesn't have to be taken into account in terms of current political measures - Blair has left the building

A lot of these refugees are a consequence of Blair and Bush's actions........a knee jerk reaction to 9/11 that was ultimately used as an excuse to invade Iraq and occupy Afghanistan without realising their misguided 'War on Terror' would only serve to increase recruitment into terrorist organisations.

Europe has seen all this before of course. After 1945 there was an apparently insoluble problem of "displaced persons" as a result of wartime boundary changes and language/cultural/ethnic differences. Somehow it all got sorted.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." (H.L.Mencken)

I'm not keen on the title of this thread, since the real issue here is about refugees entering Europe. Yes, there’s been a steady stream of economic migrants coming this way for decades, but the many people risking, and often losing, their lives this year are fleeing from conflicts and persecution in Syria, Iraq and Libya. I also don’t like the use of the word “flooding” in this context, any more than Cameron’s reference to people as “a swarm”.

Whilst I accept that Tony Blair brokered peace in Northern Ireland and presided over a number of improvements to health, education and welfare (most of which are now being destroyed by the Tories), I’m no fan of his. I was strongly opposed to the Iraq war, which had nothing to do with destroying al-Qaeda and the Taliban who had made Osama bin Laden so welcome in Afghanistan. I still find it incomprehensible that Blair became the poodle of a right-wing dipstick like Bush, but then Harold Wilson (who refused to send troops to Vietnam) was the only British PM since the Second World War to stand up to a US president. Our involvement in the Iraq war did fuel the recruitment of terrorists (and probably led to 7/7), but it is both simple and wrong to pin most of the blame for today’s crisis on Blair.

If we are to apportion blame, we probably need to go back to 1921 and the creation of the artificial state of Iraq. Kurds, Sunnis and Shias were never going to integrate fully, and just like the cobbled-together state of Yugoslavia, it was almost inevitable that the country would one day fall apart.

The Iraq war would have happened with or without Tony Blair. He only won the vote in Parliament because the Tories supported it, and Bush would have invaded with or without UK backing. After all, Saddam Hussein once “tried to kill my daddy”. Saddam was a brutal dictator, and as a Sunni wasn’t averse to gassing Kurds and murdering Shias; who can say that if he had stayed in power, Iraq would not have disintegrated anyway?

Things kicked off in Syria when Assad started slaughtering his own people, which even involved the use of chemical weapons. That was nothing to do with Tony Blair. Cameron wanted to help Assad’s opponents, some of whom turned out to be affiliates of ISIS. Most of the current refugees entering Europe are from Syria, but there are also plenty crossing the Med from Libya, which turned into a failed state after Gaddafi was toppled in 2011. That was also nothing to do with Tony Blair.

Ivan

Feel free to change the title to 'refugees' Ivan - I did consider that myself. I don't see a problem with 'flooding'.....it's descriptive of what is happening and can't be interpreted as a derogatory comment on the refugees themselves , wheras Cameron's 'swarm' was descriptive of the actual refugees.

I do think Blair, and Bush, can be held accountable for a good deal of this - it was their decisions which fuelled the recruitment of terroists. It would have happened without Blair, as you suggest Ivan, but he was a key figure and should be held to account and made to realise the consequence of his decisions. Your approach, Ivan, is a bit like saying 'there were 10 people involved in beating the victim up but we can't really blame the 10th person because the victim would have been beaten up anyway'.

sickchip. ‘Flooding’ feels like an inappropriate word, especially in view of the number of people who have drowned while trying to get across the Mediterranean Sea. Floods cover an area that they affect; it will take a lot more migrants to cover Europe, a continent with over 740 million people.

Of course Blair must share the blame for the Iraq war, not least for the 173 UK servicemen and 6 servicewomen who died in the conflict. My argument is that the explanation for the current refugee crisis is a lot more complicated than just blaming Blair and Bush. If we want to do some Blair-bashing, we have another thread of yours:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t534p280-tony-blair-a-great-labour-man-and-pm

And if we want to discuss the Iraq war, we can do so here:-

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t712-what-was-the-invasion-of-iraq-in-2003-really-about

I suggest that we use this topical thread to discuss the refugee crisis. Whoever or whatever caused it, the issue now is how to deal with it. Refugees will continue to head for Europe until Syria, Iraq and Libya are safe countries in which to live. How that can be achieved, I don’t have a clue. Four years ago, some people thought that Syrians would live happily ever after if only Assad could be removed, but we now know that that isn’t the case and was just another simple but wrong solution.

That worked well in Iraq - until its US-trained Army abandoned all its expensively-provided US equipment whilst running away from the IS forces at Mosel.

Do you want to share your next best idea with us please, bobby?

People willing to risk their lives in search of a home is indeed a serious business, bobby. Man's inhumanity to Man seems to be one of the universal constants.

If you're not already angry about the refugee crisis, here's a reminder why you really should be

From an article by Stefano Hatfield:-

The endlessly whipped-up, false hysteria about a refugee crisis that we refuse to even call by its true name shames us all – not least on a weekend where there was a 5,000-strong march in Dresden in support of refugees. The marchers’ slogan? “Say it loud, say it clear, refugees are welcome here.”

Theresa May is opining again that “free movement was never intended to mean freedom to cross borders in search of benefits”. It’s enough to make one weep with shame. Contrast this with Angela Merkel rising above Britain’s political pygmies to accept 750,000 refugees in Germany, and use the German army to build shelters for them.

For the whole article:-
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/if-youre-not-already-angry-about-the-migrant-crisis-heres-a-history-lesson-to-remind-you-why-you-really-should-be-10478962.html

Slightly to one side, but perhaps illustrative of the way we've gone - yesterday I spoke to the mother of a 21 year old who was born in England and lived in England all his life.
As a younger man, like many, he got into trouble with the police and spent some time in jail. For the past two years, he has been a good citizen, caring for his mum  and his two younger brothers.
He forgot to report to the police station on one occasion, was arrested and is now in a detention centre awaiting deportation .
When I contacted a lawyer to discuss the young man's case I was told that the law has now changed and Courts are instructed that in the case of 'foreign criminals' the ECHR should not be taken very much into consideration - it is very likely that this young man will soon be sent a way to a country where he has never lived, and where he knows no-one.
The young man's mother is from the Gambia, so he is fortunate that he will be deported to one of the safer African countries.

The anti-immigration lobby probably think this is a publicity still from Pinnochio.



© AP

re: the Aylan Kurdi effect:

It's sad that it takes dead children to make the powers that be feel like they have to make a TOKEN GESTURE; and SADDER that people don't realise that when we allow 85 people to own more wealth than half the planets population ( 3.5 billion ) this is the result - DEAD CHILDREN.

Greed KILLS.......plain and simple. The unjustifiably rich are responsible for the misery and death that plagues the lives of those they use and abuse.

Somehow, that connection never quite gets through - maybe because we all, in some way, benefit from the destruction and oppression of others poorer than ourselves

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COJG2EgWoAAVG9X.jpg

The Windsors are great friends of Saudi Arabia. Charles like to dress up in their costumes and accepts presents of swords from a regime that beheads up to a 100 people a year. His mother ordered flags on all government buildings in London to be flown at half mast when their last despotic king died earlier this year. Why can't they use their influence to persuade Saudi Arabia to take some of the Syrian refugees?

I was disgusted by Cameron's volte-face this week. The fact that he has had to be shamed into offering the refugees an escape from their situations has made Britain a laughing stock.

He found himself on the wrong side of public opinion and so he positioned himself on the right side and tried to make it look like he was there all the time.

These people need help - they don't need to be faced with condescension from this government who have made it quite clear that their 'help' has been given grudgingly.

Cameron’s offer of 20,000 Syrian refugees over five years is derisory

Extracts from an article by Paddy Ashdown:-

"Cameron has highly developed skills in the art of following where he should be leading. And so, after being taught an excruciating lesson in compassion, decency and leadership by Angela Merkel, and sensing himself behind opinion again, he has produced a plan to take in 20,000 refugees – over five years. Nothing better shows his tone deafness to the urgency of the situation than to announce this headline figure, and then add that it will take five years to implement.

Not only is Cameron offering a derisory number of places for refugees, but he chooses to help those who are already safely housed and fed in refugee camps outside Europe, rather than those who suffer (and die too) for want of these things inside Europe. Could it be that the toxic term here is not 'suffering', but 'inside Europe', because of the effect these words have on his backbench Europhobes? If so then the desperate and the destitute tramping towards us on the dusty roads of the Balkans are hostages to Cameron’s headbangers, just as he is.

Not only is this response calibrated more by political expediency than compassion, he has also indicated he believes the answer to the problem is more bombing. If the best part of two years of bombing with more than enough high explosive hasn’t solved this problem, how would a few extra bombs help? ISIS will not be defeated by killing more Arab Muslims with more western bombs. What is needed here is more clever diplomacy, not more pointless bombing, and this is where Britain should be taking the lead."

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/07/cameron-20000-syrian-refugees-offer-derisory

Newton's Third Law of motion: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

1. American support for Israel
2. Nine-eleven
3. Bush/Blair invasion of Iraq
4. Instability in Syria
5. Migrants entering Europe

Next ?

6. Instability in Libya.....'Cameron'.....

The latest YouGov polls apparently show an equal 40% split between pro- and anti-European sentiment, with 20% undecided. No surprises there for Nigel, then.

"Cameron’s offer of 20,000 Syrian refugees over five years is derisory"

I suppose it is possible, using probability theory, to estimate the number of terrorists included in x numbers of refugees flooding across Europe. We know that at least one terrorist has rapidly done what he is good at doing and it would be naïve to think he is alone. In Calais it appears that 90% are healthy young men, a statistic that would have raised Caesar's eyebrow but apparently one that generates compassion today.
As for Newton's equal and opposite reaction, we will benefit from this in the short term by incidents like that in Paris and in the long term there will be no need to debate religion.
In view of these considerations, Cameron -forced to accept some folk from all over the globe - has wisely chosen to pick from what seems to be the needy. Many would say that 20,000 is enough to be getting on with.

Wishing to stop the flow of people wanting to cross National borders equates to King Canute (Knut) demonstrating to his fawning courtiers that he could not, in fact, control the tide. Present-day Britain results from successive streams of migrants "seeking a better life" which began at a time when there was a land bridge from the Continent, and hasn't finished.

Hello often wrong - your analogy between the difficult and the impossible is an odd one. The historical make-up of Britain, while interesting, strains for relevance. What might be more appropriate would be to look at the hordes of tribes forced by the Huns to move across the borders of the Roman Empire. For a time Rome did control the flow.

One need not look at Canute's example - that of Australia is better and much more relevant. Unfortunately the terrorists we have imported are with us until they are called to their green couches.

Regards.

Whatever the merits of accepting and assisting migrants , it may be difficult to persuade the British voting public at the present moment of the  worthiness of the undertaking...

It would be a clever exercise in oratory to declaim upon the merits of accepting migrants. The quality of mercy may not be strained but it is certainly straining credulity to accept that all are bona fide refugees. From what we have seen in Calais, some are not averse to using violence to get what they want. It is such a pity that this enthusiastic use of violence wasn't available to them on home ground. One must sympathise with the group of Christians thrown overboard by their Islamic cousins who, one hopes and prays, made it safely to Germany.

If the global-warming doomsayers are right, tropical zones will sometime become uninhabitable, causing a surge of people moving North for survival. They will probably not care very much whether they are welcomed here or not when that happens.

Hello again, oftenwrong. You certainly live up to your apocryphal tidings. Let us hope that when your Good News becomes reality the Son of God will be back in circulation, gathering sheep and separating goats.

On the RT channel today I saw what was happening in Germany some one had videod it on there phone it recorded a young women on the train and she was been sexually harrassed by Syriain refugees an OAP went to her aid and the same refugees attacked him, we now know what happened in some cities in Germany at New Year Eve and how long it took that to come out in the media the piece of news I have told you about has not even came out on the media in Germany the phone video was handed to the RT channel who then put it out on there channel.

The police in Germany have been told not to arrest any refugee who is caught shop lifting or any petty crimes but I bet the citizens of Germany get caught committing any of these crimes will be brought before the courts quick as lightening. Merkel has a lot to answer for and the reason she want us to stay in the EU so we the UK can be used the same way that she has used Spain Italy Greece Protugal Cypress and Southern Ireland remember that referendum in SI when they said NO and where sent back to do the referendum until it came back with the answer the EU wanted.

Redflag. What appears to have been an orchestrated campaign of sexual harassment on New Year's Eve occurred in one German city, Cologne. I understand that about 40 men have since been arrested for their part in it. Had there been a conspiracy in Germany to keep such stories out of the media, why on earth would that one have received international coverage?

The incident which you say was filmed on a train, involving attacks on a young woman and an OAP, was of course very serious, but possibly not worthy of mass coverage by national news outlets. The fact that the video was handed to the RT channel (which I agree is a good one) means that they had the exclusive on it; why would they share it with anyone else?

All such behaviour should be roundly condemned and punished severely, but it shouldn't be used as an excuse either for xenophobic outbursts or for leaving the EU.

Cameron has manipulated and misrepresented the issue of EU migrants’ benefits

From an article by Anneliese Dodds MEP:-

"After months of uncertainty, aided and abetted by some truly epic diplomatic failures by Cameron, we finally got some clarity around the content of his renegotiation of our relationship with the EU.

Cameron has repeated his claim that the British welfare system is a magnet to migrants. Yet there is literally no evidence of welfare tourism in the UK, either by EU or non-EU migrants, with UK benefits being substantially less generous than those of most comparator countries, and EU migrants comprising a relatively small number of those using benefits. In 2014, the DWP reported that EU migrants accounted for only 2.5% of the benefits it administered. And in 2013, in-work benefits for EU migrants cost less than 2% of the overall tax credit bill for that year.

It is unpleasant to see a multimillionaire like Cameron trying to turn the British public against people whose only crime is to be paid too little to live on and to be unable to find affordable accommodation, just for the sake of keeping his party together. But then party management, rather than the real interests of the UK, has always been at the heart of Cameron’s agenda.

The core benefits of EU membership for the UK remain untouched by his renegotiation: the 10% of British jobs which depend on EU trade, the rights which ensure us all 4 weeks’ paid holiday and keep us safe at work, the protections which keep the air we breathe and the water we drink relatively clean, and the essential funding for our universities, research and economically depressed areas. I hope that the referendum debate will focus on those issues."

For the whole article:-
http://leftfootforward.org/2016/02/cameron-has-manipulated-and-misrepresented-the-issue-of-eu-migrants-benefits/

Ivan wrote:Redflag. What appears to have been an orchestrated campaign of sexual harassment on New Year's Eve occurred in one German city, Cologne. I understand that about 40 men have since been arrested for their part in it. Had there been a conspiracy in Germany to keep such stories out of the media, why on earth would that one have received international coverage?

From what I heard there was at least three Cities within Germany that had the same problems as Cologne on News Years Eve and I got that from the RT channel, what I cannot understand once the RT channel released it why di the others not pick it up this happens between the BBC news 24 & sky news 24.

Only three of the 58 suspects arrested in connection with the mass sex attack on women in Cologne on New Year’s Eve were refugees who had recently arrived in Germany - two Syrians and an Iraqi. The majority of the suspects were of Algerian, Tunisian or Moroccan origin, and three were German citizens.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-only-three-out-of-58-men-arrested-in-connection-with-mass-sex-attack-on-new-years-eve-are-a6874201.html

oftenwrong wrote:Europe has seen all this before of course.  After 1945 there was an apparently insoluble problem of "displaced persons" as a result of wartime boundary changes and language/cultural/ethnic  differences.  Somehow it all got sorted.

I am not against giving Syrian migrants a home but there is only so many we can cope with, after 45 OW we had lost Millions of people during the 11 WW which allowed us to make up the numbers with the Kinder migration, but at the moment there is a housing shortage and our own people on the poverty line plus homelessness has went up since May 2010 and if your expecting the Tories to sort out these problems at home Please do not hold your breath.

we had lost Millions of people during the 11 WW

Let’s not exaggerate. In the Second World War, the UK lost 383,700 from the armed forces, and there were 67,200 civilian deaths. That makes a total of 450,900.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties