Migrants entering Europe

First topic message reminder :

Blair and Bush have a lot to answer for. Their actions have led to an increase in terrorism and the recruitment of terrorists, and because of that we now have people fleeing their homelands and flooding into Europe.

The UK cannot really complain about these refugees turning up here because, through Blair's decisions, we are largely responsible for their unfortunate situations. I wonder if it pricks Blair's conscience when he sees people dying in the back of lorries, or drowning at sea.

we had lost Millions of people during the 11 WW

Let’s not exaggerate. In the Second World War, the UK lost 383,700 from the armed forces, and there were 67,200 civilian deaths. That makes a total of 450,900.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Thank you for the proper numbers that where killed in WW 2 Ivan.

If EU migration is the problem, Switzerland and Norway are not the answer

Immigration and border control are now the most frequently cited reasons for leaving the EU – or at least that’s how the debate is framed, and Cameron has been struggling to come up with answers. This is actually very odd, since Switzerland and Norway both accept more EU migrants per capita than the UK. In fact, many more.

More details:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11190269/If-EU-migration-is-the-problem-Switzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html

Staying in the EU is not the answer either Ivan, some of the EU countries that are stopping the part of the deal that Davy boy wants Family Allowance not been paid if your kids are still living abroad these same countries do not pay there own people Family Allowance I call that a BLOODY CHEEK.

Redflag. Greece and Italy are the only EU countries which don’t pay child benefit to their own citizens.

The European Economic Area (EEA) includes all 28 EU countries plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. UK citizens can get child benefit for children living with them anywhere within the EEA or Switzerland.

https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-abroad

As for citizens of other EU countries who come to the UK, if they are posted here for a short assignment (less than 2 years) while remaining covered by their home country's social security system, their home country will be responsible for paying their family benefits. If they settle with all the members of their family and are only covered by the UK’s social security system, they will be subject to Iain Duncan Smith’s family benefit regime.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/family/children/benefits/index_en.htm

When people come to the UK to work and live, they pay income tax at our rates and VAT at our rates. Do you consider it “a bloody cheek” that citizens of Cyprus, Germany, Luxembourg and Malta have to pay a higher rate of VAT when they are in the UK than when they are in their own countries?

Just as the tax rates are variable from country to country, so are any benefits. The principle of EU membership is that all EU citizens are treated the same as the nationals of whichever country they visit or settle in. Long may it continue.

Ivan you can try all you like but I will not change my mind about voting OUT on the 23rd June, you will all be going mad if we vote to stay in the EU and TTIP is brought in then you will have EFF ALL public services that is another LIE from the heads of the EU because the Tories have already privatized most of our public services so nothing there to stop the private sector getting there hands on our NHS.

You just need to take a look at the deal the EU has done with the Monster that governs Turkey, and that should tell you all need to know how the EU works. All it does is swops Syrian refugees for Turkish economic migrants, if the EU cannot see when they are been BLACKMAILED by a tyrant and it will not be long before we have Turkey as part of the EU and there population is around 75 Million all free to come to the EU.

Hush, Redflag, we aren't meant to notice such trifling little details.

The EU's desperation to "solve" the refugee crisis is understandable, but the current negotiations are reminiscent of Chamberlain's eagerness to appease Hitler in 1939 - and we all know how that turned out.

So are we to believe that 75 million Turks are heading for Europe? Perhaps they’ll all end up in Eastleigh, with those 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians that Nigel Farage warned us about. I don’t suppose that was part of this ‘Project Fear’ which desperate Brexit supporters keep mentioning?

Personally, I don’t think Turkey should be allowed to join the EU. Why? Because not more than 5% of its land mass is in Europe. However, we shouldn’t turn our backs on its present dilemma. Around 2.7 million Syrian refugees are currently living in Turkey, while last year more than a million people entered the EU illegally by boat, mainly going from Turkey to Greece. What are we supposed to do? Leave the EU and just say “not our problem, mate”? The influx of refugees into Europe is not the fault of the EU, but it could be argued that it's partly the result of some member countries, including the UK, bombing an already war-ravaged country. And the refugees won't stop coming to Europe if the British people should be foolish enough to vote to leave the EU.

The EU deal does not “swop Syrian refugees for Turkish economic migrants”. It proposes to exchange migrants who have attempted the sea journey from Turkey to Greece with some of those Syrian refugees living in Turkey. The idea is to try to put the people smugglers out of business, which is a very laudable aim. The problem is that any collective expulsion of foreigners may be illegal.

Some of the Turkish popular press is suggesting that visa-free access to all parts of the EU within the Schengen agreement, is only days away.

The 75 million population figure includes people moving into Turkey during the Republican Period: Muslim refugees (Muhajir) from formerly Muslim-dominated regions invaded by Christian States, like Crimean Tatars, Algerian followers of Abd-el-Kader, Mahdists from Sudan, Turkmens, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and other Central Asian Turkic-speaking peoples fleeing the USSR and later the war-torn Afghanistan, Balkan Muslims, either Turkish-speaking or Bosniaks, Pomaks, Albanians, Greek Muslims etc., fleeing either the reborn majority-Christian states or later the Communist regimes, in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria for instance.

That may not actually improve the immigrant problem already facing EU countries.

Redflag wrote:-
it will not be long before we have Turkey as part of the EU

Yes it will. Jean-Claude Juncker has said that the EU is not accepting any new members before 2020, and even when it does, Turkey is way down the waiting list. Albania, Montenegro, Serbia and FYR Macedonia are likely to be the next countries to join, possibly followed by Bosnia and Herzegovina.

‘Project Fear’ certainly seems to be thriving, but it would be nice if we could stick to the facts, instead of resorting to speculation and guesswork. So far only 13 of Turkey's 35 negotiating chapters have been opened, and only one has been closed. Turkey could complete negotiations in 10-15 years, but progress has been very slow, as the EU is divided over whether Turkey should join at all. Angela Merkel thinks that Turkey should have a partnership deal with the EU, rather than full membership.

Isn’t it interesting that all these countries are queuing up to join the world’s largest free trade area, while the lemmings of UKIP and the right-wing nut jobs of the Tory Party want to leave?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11283616

Sorry Ivan you have not been listening to the news, Turkey is demanding quicker entry into the EU if they help to stop the rush of refugees from Turkey to Greece. They are also demanding more euros and visas for the poeople of Turkey starting in June 2016 so they can travel right across the EU which would cause more problems for all concerned.

Trying to keep up with "Breaking News" is a mug's game for an individual lacking the facilities of Reuters, the Press Association or similar agencies.

I have been listening to the news and, unlike some people, I also pay attention to the details. The draft proposal merely referred to “the next stage of talks about Turkey joining the EU”.

There's no such thing as quick entry into the EU, especially when Juncker has said there will be no more new members this decade. As there are ongoing issues with Turkey over human rights, its relationship with Cyprus, not to mention opposition from powerful politicians like Merkel, there is no chance of Turkey jumping the queue - with all the issues that would involve with those other countries who are waiting to join.

The Turks are not demanding visas but visa-free travel. If they get it, it won’t be "right across the EU", but just in the Schengen area (where there are no border checks). That doesn’t include the UK, so it would make no difference whether we were in or out of the EU.

I heard with my own ears Ivan the Turkish representive (Turkeys PM) exactly what Turkey was asking for and as others have said pure BLACKMAIL from Turkey if the EU did not give them what they wanted to stop the refugees from leaving Turkeys shores for Greece. So I missed out travel when I was talking about visas what about the rest of Turkeys demands Turkey has the EU over a barrel and Turkey knows it, did you know that only 3% of Turkeys land mass is in Europe the rest is surrounding Syria ect.

pure BLACKMAIL from Turkey

Redflag. I thought the silly season wasn’t until August. If you don’t know the difference between blackmail and negotiating a deal, I suggest you buy a dictionary.

So I missed out travel when I was talking about visas

No, your ears misunderstood exactly what the Turks were requesting – not visas, but travel without them in the Schengen area (not “right across the EU”, as you incorrectly stated earlier). Rather than rely on my ears, I tend to search for written evidence:-

“Preparations will be made for a decision on the opening of new chapters in talks on EU membership for Turkey…..More problematic is Turkey's request for visa-free access for all its citizens to the EU's Schengen zone, which it hopes to achieve by June. This may draw a lot of opposition.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35749837

Nothing moves quickly in an organisation which includes 28 countries. So far only 13 of Turkey's 35 negotiating chapters have been opened, and only one has been closed. If “preparations” are to be made “for a decision” on the “opening of new chapters in talks”, I think you can safely assume that Turkey won’t be joining the EU this week or next. Juncker has said no new members before 2020, and as some member countries are unhappy about Turkey’s application, it isn’t likely to join for at least 10-15 years, if ever. So there’s no need for any scaremongering about it.

did you know that only 3% of Turkeys land mass is in Europe

If you bothered to read other people’s posts, you would have seen that I posted something similar on this thread two days ago.

No silly season Ivan more like the Greed & Power season, you believe what you want while I will keep my ears well pinned back even some in Brussells other heads of the EU countries know what Turkey is asking is something short of BLACLMAIL.

I tend to skim over what others are saying Ivan because since I have said and being honest that I WILL be voting out in the referendum I am the odd person out on CE.

You must of course vote according to your convictions - we would all like you to check your sources and ensure the accuracy of what you post - some of us are not yet decided so it will be helpful if you put the case clearly and back it up with respectable sources

It's not easy to have a discussion with someone who simply knows that they are right.

Prejudice is, by definition, when you pre-judge something. You form an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of an issue, and you stick to it in the face of whatever evidence is produced. If you think the world is flat, and then Columbus and Magellan come along and prove that the world is round, you just say: “Sorry, mate, I believe the world is flat and I will just skim over anything you say to the contrary”.

The population of Germany is currently one million below what it was in 2003. The German ethos is that if a couple have children, one of the parents (in most cases, the woman) is expected to stay at home and look after them. Clearly, a lot of German people don’t go along with that, and so they tend to have fewer children, not enough to sustain an ageing population. I’m no great fan of Angela Merkel - she’s a centre-right Christian Democrat, roughly the equivalent of Tony Blair or Ken Clarke - but I do feel sorry for her over the backlash she is now receiving from the migration crisis. She noticed that the Syrian refugees who had had sufficient money and initiative to get themselves away from ISIS and into Europe were, for the most part, intelligent and educated people who would do nothing but good for Germany and its declining population. Sadly, too many people are preoccupied with pandering to their own prejudices about immigrants, even to the extent of trying to blame refugees for the sex attacks that happened in Cologne on New Year’s Eve, even though only three of the 58 men arrested for those incidents were refugees. But then that’s prejudice for you.

Oh, well, if you're going to use logic there's nothing more to be said.

boatlady wrote:You must of course vote according to your convictions - we would all like you to check your sources and ensure the accuracy of what you post - some of us are not yet decided so it will be helpful if you put the case clearly and back it up with respectable sources

I amnot forcing my opions on ANYONE on this forum boatlady, in fact I have said the best way to make up your mind is "DO YOUR OWN REASEARCH"

As for Turkey I got my information from the EU debate on the Parliament channel, where 1 or 2 MEPs stood up and told the entire Parliament that Turkey was BLACKMAILING the EU because it could due too the migration from Syria but what also came out was amongst the refugees was economic migrants which should NOT get into Europe because the people from Syria should be FIRST in the queue.

See, that's what worries me about your arguments - 1 or 2 MEP's - what about the others? - what about other sources of information? In my experience most politicians (even the good ones) will usually be quite sparing with the truth and will only acknowledge information which backs up the position they have decided to take - a bit like some contributors on these threads.

I find Ivan's and TriMonk3y's contributions more convincing because they often quote facts rather than opinions - and facts from a variety of sources which come with a link I can follow and check the original source myself.

I know it's never your intention to force your opinions - but I guess you'd like people to be influenced by matters that you feel strongly about - and the way to achieve this is to provide the evidence to back up those opinions.

Personally, I haven't the time or the skills to marshal the arguments as some other contributors do - I'm all about opinions on the political scene - so I'm rather grateful to those who take the time to do a bit of research so I can learn and base my opinions on a wider range of evidence

How easily the thread title slides away when we're not looking.
"Migrants entering Europe" is not actually a topic that only arose in the past couple of years.

In 1939, and more urgently once bombs started to drop on London, children were sent away to safer locations in rural England as "evacuees". Many went much further - to places like Canada and Australia.

In modern Britain there is no echo of the humanity then portrayed without question.

Pity. We all lose from insularity.

Redflag wrote:-
I got my information from the EU debate on the Parliament channel, where 1 or 2 MEPs stood up and told the entire Parliament that Turkey was BLACKMAILING the EU

It was one MEP - Nigel Farage.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-accuses-turkey-of-blackmailing-the-eu-over-the-refugee-crisis-a6921316.html

Were you too ashamed of your source to name him? Since when has anyone in the Labour Party believed anything he says? You were campaigning in Eastleigh in 2013 when Farage and other members of UKIP were scaremongering that 29 million Romanians and Bulgarians (more than the entire population of both countries) were on their way here. Did you quote his squalid propaganda as facts then?

Every reason and every statistic for leaving the EU that you’ve posted on this forum has turned out to be false. Not once have you supplied a link or even a verbatim quotation to back up your claims. Yet, like Iain Duncan Smith on benefit fraud, you decided what you believe long ago and if the evidence doesn’t support your prejudice, you've told us that you “skim over it”.

Presumably you’ll now peddle the same lies on behalf of Labour Leave, betraying all those workers whose right to paid holidays, maternity leave and health and safety at work will no longer be protected from the Tories by the European Court of Justice if we leave the EU. And you clearly couldn't care less about the 2.2 million Brits who live and/or work in other EU countries. The only thing that Labour Leave should do is to leave Labour, it's totally out of step with the party's values.

Since last Thursdays referendum (23rd June) there seems to have been a halt to refugees trying to cross the Mediterranean or is just that the media no longer needs to cover it due to the Leave campaign having won?..........

Good point ---

Ivan wrote:.... Syrian refugees who had had sufficient money and initiative to get themselves away from ISIS and into Europe were, for the most part, intelligent and educated people who would do nothing but good ....

A newspaper article about current property values comments that much of the more expensive parts of London is now the province of migrants.  
Migrants with money that is, obviously.

Curious how much difference that makes in people's attitudes.

Redflag wrote:I am not  against giving Syrian migrants a home but there is only so many we can cope with, after 45 OW we had lost Millions of people during the 11 WW which allowed us to make up the numbers with the Kinder migration, but at the moment there is a housing shortage and our own people on the poverty line plus homelessness has went up since May 2010 and if your expecting the Tories to sort out these problems at home Please do not hold your breath.

You think there wasn't a housing shortage until Labour fixed it with council houses?    The kindertransport was hardly  a drop in the bucket, as you know, and anyone could come in from Ireland, and did.

The housing crisis in my view is caused by two factors
- the failure of successive governments to invest in social housing
- the totally stupid decision to sell off social housing in the '80's

It's got nothing to do with people coming into the country

I would think there has to be at least some connection between the number of folk in a country and the availability and cost of living accommodation...

If you can afford to buy a house, there's no shortage - if you can't the supply of decent rental property at a reasonable rent is very poor - please also refer to above comment

- the failure of successive governments to invest in social housing
- the totally stupid decision to sell off social housing in the '80's

Not least among housing difficulties is that London is the tail which wags the British dog.

(97% of student-visa holders returned home after completing their studies, without incident.)