If the Tories are so great in government, how come they lost the 1997 election and failed to win in 2010?

by Stox 16 Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:48 am

First topic message reminder :

If we was to believe our Tories and there friends, as they keep telling us that they have to clear up the Labour parties mess? if this is SO... How come they lost the 1997 GE and Failed to win the last GE?... As they keep telling us all... that economy was do very good in 1997? So How come they did not sweep back into office? if this is right

also the Tory party and there Friends in the media keep saying Last Government was so very bad, How come the Tory Party and its friends could not win a majority at the last election?..... as this was after spending some £20 million pounds to get there message over too us all?

Do you happen too think that the UK people could see that they were totally bankrupt? but just need to blame something or someone for the world banking crisis?

by **Ivan** Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:42 am

Extracts from an article by Andy Slaughter, Labour MP for Hammersmith:-

A Tory-led government is quite happy to invite tax avoider Philip Green to advise on waste. It permits unrestrained development across town and countryside alike at the behest of property developers while greedily accepting their donations. Similarly, the Tories have sought donations from private healthcare companies while privatising the NHS and from the insurance industry (£4.9m under Cameron) who will earn billions from restrictions on access to justice in the current Legal Aid Bill. Yet the banks still refuse to lend to small businesses and bonuses in the City are still out of control.

This is a government that defends the 1% as it asks the public sector to pay for a crisis in the private sector. This is government by and for the 1%, a new political settlement which owes more to the nineteenth century than the twenty first. My constituents experience eviction, poverty, unemployment and degradation every day not despite but as a result of government policy. The rich are stealing from the rest of us.

Rick Santorum told Rush Limbaugh: "Lady Thatcher said after she left office and reflected on her career, that she was never able to accomplish in England what Ronald Reagan did in America, and she said that she blamed the British national health care system." A few years ago this would have been just a joke. But Cameron's Tories increasingly look like the Tea Party tendency in the US.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/01/miliband-government-interests#reader-comments

by blueturando Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 am

Ivan...Can I ask? Did Philip Green, Vodaphone, Boots etc avoid their taxes while Labour was in power or is this only since the coalition took over?

by Guest Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:14 am

bobby wrote:
As you are asking for: "British posters only, please."

What has it got to do with you.

It has to do with me learning and understanding something that I don't know.

“The only stupid question is the question you don't ask when you want to know something”, "RockOnBrother", in real life, quoted verbatim as, on numerous occasions, he encouraged students of varied levels to fearlessly ask questions.

I've taken my own advice all of my life; this is but one such occasion.

by Guest Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:50 am

Redflag,

Thank you. The words “poll tax” are closely associated with lynching Black citizens, and others, for daring to assert their inalienable rights to vote in the land of the free and the home of the brave, this one nation under God with liberty and justice for all. I ceased singing the words of our national, anthem and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, as a teenager, returning to singing the song and reciting the pledge only after witnessing in near real time (“Film at eleven”) the sacrifices of others who gave their full measure of devotion to the cause of dragging my country by it neck into honoring those promises.

The poll tax was one of the most effective measures ever devised by evil men to deny inalienable rights guaranteed unto all by the constitution of my country to citizens whose ancestors, in many cases, were in what is now America USV as early a 1619 AD (West African side) and 10,000-12,000 years BC (native American side) solely because of their skin color (some black folks “passed”, if they were light enough an didn’t get busted).
__________________________________________________________________________________________

United States Constitution, Amendment 24, ratified 23 January 1964

1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

On June 21, 1964, three young civil rights workers—a 21-year-old black Mississippian, James Chaney, and two white New Yorkers, Andrew Goodman, 20, and Michael Schwerner, 24—were murdered near Philadelphia, in Nashoba County, Mississippi.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

“Too many have died, in protecting my pride, for me to go second class.” These words, penned by Curtis Mayfield circa 1969, seem applicable to Scots today.

Vaya con Dios, my brother.

by Guest Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:14 am

Ivan,

Thank you. Reagan was a man against whom I voted twice (1980, 1984) and would have invited to dinner. If he had run a third time, I would have voted against him a third time, and he still would have had an open dinner invite.

Was Thatcher unable to connect personally with those who repeatedly opposed her, as Reagan did? Does the animosity towards Tories extend further back than Thatcher?

by **Phil Hornby** Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:55 am

Quote : " Does the animosity towards Tories extend further back than Thatcher?"
The difference for much of the nation is that- pre-Thatcher - tolerating a Conservative party was like having a mild chill , whereas during and afterwards it became akin to having become the victim of a sexually-transmitted disease...

by oftenwrong Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:22 pm

The pre-release hype of Meryll Streep's film about Thatcher has been going on for so long it's difficult to realise that it has only just been premiered in the UK. A cartoon in Saturday's Independent shows a cinema foyer offering Pop-corn, Cola and sickbags.

by **astradt1** Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:15 pm

The words “poll tax” are closely associated with lynching Black citizens, and others, for daring to assert their inalienable rights to vote in the land of the free and the home of the brave, this one nation under God with liberty and justice for all. I ceased singing the words of our national, anthem and reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, as a teenager, returning to singing the song and reciting the pledge only after witnessing in near real time (“Film at eleven”) the sacrifices of others who gave their full measure of devotion to the cause of dragging my country by it neck into honoring those promises.

Perhaps ROB if you didn't try and equate everything that has happened in Britain to something that happened in the USA you may find people more willing to give to answers to your questions...

The British Poll Tax was a simple tax whereby all adults of voting age were to pay single flat rate, irrispective of if you had an income or not.

It was designed, by the Tory's, to replace housing rates which were based on the value of your house.

It was argued that everyone who used council services should pay for them equally and that this would, in some tory's eye's, be a fairer system.......

So you see ROB trying to equate this to the Disfranchisement of Coloured voters in the USA is so far off the mark to be a waste of time........

by LWS Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:23 pm

The Coucil tax or community charge was great in my opinion. It ridded us of Thatcher.

by bobby Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:29 pm

ROB, If all you can do is to ask about the British Tory Government, and even go so far as to ask for British posters only, then go on to inflict American history on us, exactly what is your point?.

by Guest Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:43 pm

bobby wrote:
ROB, If all you can do is to ask about the British Tory Government, and even go so far as to ask for British posters only, then go on to inflict American history on us, exactly what is your point?.

I’m so sorry that you feel “inflicted” by “American history”, but I wasn’t I wasn’t responding to you.

by Guest Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:49 pm

astradt1 wrote:
Perhaps ROB if you didn't try and equate everything that has happened in Britain to something that happened in the USA you may find people more willing to give to answers to your questions...

Perhaps, astradt1, if you weren’t trying to dictate my actions, you might notice that I wasn’t responding to you.

by **astradt1** Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:41 pm

Well Bobby, now we know that we perhaps shouldn't respond to some posters on here when they ask questions..............

by **Ivan** Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:33 am

How one Tory is not so great in local government:-

If the Tories are so great in government, how come they lost the 1997 election and failed to win in 2010? - Page 2 Ken_ad

If the Tories are so great in government, how come they lost the 1997 election and failed to win in 2010? - Page 2 Ken_ad

Source: liberalconspiracy.org

by bobby Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:37 am

I'm with you there Astradt

by atv Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:31 pm

RockOnBrother wrote:
bobby wrote:
ROB, If all you can do is to ask about the British Tory Government, and even go so far as to ask for British posters only, then go on to inflict American history on us, exactly what is your point?.

I’m so sorry that you feel “inflicted” by “American history”, but I wasn’t I wasn’t responding to you.

astradt1 wrote:

Perhaps ROB if you didn't try and equate everything that has happened in Britain to something that happened in the USA you may find people more willing to give to answers to your questions...

Perhaps, astradt1, if you weren’t trying to dictate my actions, you might notice that I wasn’t responding to you.

.

No one is barred from answering on this thread. That's what debate is all about, and hopefully it will produce a thread which I (or anyone else) can help use to come to a more fully-rounded decision.

by Redflag Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:39 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:Quote : " Does the animosity towards Tories extend further back than Thatcher?"
The difference for much of the nation is that- pre-Thatcher - tolerating a Conservative party was like having a mild chill , whereas during and afterwards it became akin to having become the victim of a sexually-transmitted disease...

In Scotland used to vote nothing but Tory up until the 1960s.

by astra Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:05 pm

In Scotland used to vote nothing but Tory up until the 1960s

Indeed!

I remember well, Harold Mc Millan, Sir Alec Douglas Home, Ted (HE HE HE) Heath, and the Witch at various Tory Party Conferences held in the Perth City Hall. The local MP being Sir Nicholas Fairbain MP QC. Local dignitary, Sir Ian Moncrieff of Moncrieff (the Moncrieff Clan Chieftan)

I HASTEN TO ADD that I did NOT attend these immoral wastes of time! far far more important things to do and wummin, er, people to meet!

The Conservative Club in Perth is nearly directly opposite the EX Servicemens Club, where Mr A. here, was intending to drop in for a "light libation" as would be my wont.

The security when this lot were going for a fringe speech, held up my proceedings for sometimes up to half an hour!!

You can be assured that when this happened, one was not content!

by sickchip Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:42 pm

I wonder if Cameron would have been pushing for a referendum if the tories had a majority in Scotland?

Labour might struggle, in terms of getting votes, to ever govern again in England if Scotland gains independence. Cameron might be banking on that!

by **Ivan** Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:09 pm

Labour might struggle, in terms of getting votes, to ever govern again in England if Scotland gains independence.

The loss of 41 seats in Scotland wouldn't help, but Labour would still have won an overall majority in 1997 and 2001 without them. Even in 2005, Labour had the majority of seats in England, if not the majority of votes.

The forthcoming boundary changes will still not alter the fact that Tory votes tend to be 'wasted' because they are stockpiled in the southern shires. It doesn't matter if you win a seat by one vote or thirty thousand votes, it only gives you one MP. The Tories think that's unfair but resist any change to a different voting system, as we found out last May - they just want the current unfair system to favour them.

by Guest Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:59 am

Redflag wrote:
Q1) I hate them with a vengeance for what they did to Scotland in the 1980s and what there trying to do now

Q2) I have already answered part of this question in Q1 but will add further reasons POLL TAX the most unfairest of all Tax it was given to us before anybody else and when we protested and marched against it we where not listened too, but when England got it and protested and marched and disrupting Council meetings she knew to pin back her ear holes and I never understood why after that they voted her back in. It was plain as the nose on her face the only people she was interested in the people with money and Tory voters and all that said you have not right to have your own political views

Redflag,

Thank you again for your informative responses.

I reiterate my extreme distaste, posted here and on another thread, for any poll tax, enacted anywhere, for any excuse. Poll tax equals disenfranchisement, pure and simple, and anyone who imposes a poll tax on any person but herself/himself engages in disenfranchisement of that person.

Poll tax is particularly despicable when it is imposed on one ethnicity and not on another.

The excuse given by dis-enfranchisers in the US South for effectively disenfranchising Black citizens via the poll tax, until 23 January 1964, when the following became the law of my land…

Tue 10 Jan 2012 at 2:50 RockOnBrother wrote:
United States Constitution, Amendment 24, ratified 23 January 1964

1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

… was, in my eyes, no more despicable than the excuse given by dis-enfranchisers in the UK, your Tory government, and its Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, for effectively disenfranchising Scots citizens via the poll tax in 1989.

Particularly putrid from my point of view was the attempt to couch the poll tax in flowery terms (“Community Charge”), as was done in the Conservative manifesto for the 1987 General Election.

I was, until recently, a Thatcher fan, due to the successful ousting of fascist Argentinean troops from a land not their own in 1982. I continue to cheer her words as it was announced to the world that the Union Flag again proudly flies over South Georgia Island, but I now despise the lips that uttered those historic words. Imposition of poll taxes upon anyone but oneself tends to do that for me.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

15 January is the anniversary of the birth of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr (15 January 1929 – 4 April 1968). Not commonly known are these words he spoke:

If one replaces “Black” with “Scot” or “Scottish”, and “White” with “English” (not the language), you might feel, as I feel, a “resonance.”
__________________________________________________________________________________________

These words, written Sunday, 15 January 2012 by Robert Washington, may also resonate within you as they resonate within me.

“… the language of empowerment - like in the Civil Rights Movement…”

“Even those who died… none who lost their lives for freedom did so in vain…”

“‘We shall’ - not hope to – ‘overcome,’ we sang. And the line that still gives me chills when sung correctly: ‘We are not afraid today’ - not someday…”

http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/219976

by Redflag Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:33 pm

bobby wrote:Ivan wrote

"This video exposes Cameron for the lying, cheating Tory that he is:-"

I was just about to say, I can think of worse things to call him, but what could there be worse than a Tory.

A Fatherless Tory is that any better bobby?

by **Ivan** Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:03 pm

by Redflag Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:01 pm

blueturando wrote:If Labour are so great in Government, how come they lost the 1979 election and all the subsequent elections until 97 and then also failed to win in 2010?

Because between 1979 and 1997 the whole of the UK had a MENTAL DEFICIENCY DISORDER.

by Stox 16 Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:25 am

Redflag wrote:
blueturando wrote:If Labour are so great in Government, how come they lost the 1979 election and all the subsequent elections until 97 and then also failed to win in 2010?

Because between 1979 and 1997 the whole of the UK had a MENTAL DEFICIENCY DISORDER.

Thatcher feed the UK on greed for 18 years Red. we are now paying the price for the big bang in 1983.

by Stox 16 Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:26 am

Ivan wrote:

love that pic Bobby and sums them up very well too

by Ivanhoe Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:56 am

I have heard today, 24th January, that Cameron could win the next general election, judging by the polls.

Your views please ?

by sickchip Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:23 am

I think the british must be masochists! Isn't it strange that we still want to be put in our place by out of touch with reality Bullingdon club eton toffs. We must, by nature, be a nation of cap doffers.

Then again if we look from lancashire and yorkshire northwards, the tory boys wouldn't get a look in.

Can we dis-own the south - or have a civil war please?

by **Ivan** Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:32 am

Can we dis-own the south - or have a civil war please?

sickchip. Be careful what you say in public, we're living under velvet glove fascism. A 14-year-old boy who tried to organise a demonstration outside Cameron's constituency HQ was arrested at school. Two young men who joked on 'Facebook' about starting a riot each received four years in the slammer.

However, if your name is Jeremy Clarkson and you're part of Cameron's Chipping Norton set, you can advocate mass murder of strikers (jokingly or otherwise) on television. Not only will nothing happen to you, but the BBC will carry on paying you £1 million a year from the licence fee.

by sickchip Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:37 am

Thanks Ivan.

we're living under velvet glove fascism

We certainly are. I do wonder who might be monitoring sites like this......and I don't think I'm being paranoid to do so.

by jackthelad Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:37 am

Where the hell do they do these polls, i have never seen one, have a poll in South Yorkshire, that poll would tell you the tories don't have a cat in hells chance of winning the next election. Anyway polls are manipulated by the people running them to get the result they want.

by **Ivan** Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:36 pm

Parliamentary and council by-election results have shown substantial swings to Labour (mainly because of the collapsed Lib Dem vote), and the polls in London suggest that Ken will beat Johnson. In fact, there are press reports today that a safe seat is being lined up for Johnson so that he can go back into Parliament when he gets kicked out of City Hall.

by oftenwrong Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:26 pm

It's entirely logical that the Tory Party holds a lead in the Opinion Polls. Supported by a generally Tory Press and numerous wealthy donors, the Party is riding high on the handbagging which Cameron gave to the Eurozone a couple of weeks ago. There is also public support for strong measures against benefit fraud.

Not a lot to be critical about there, so Ed. Milliband is wise to keep his counsel. Opportunities will arise to prick the Coalition bubble long before there can be a General Election.

by **Ivan** Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:10 pm

This brilliant and prophetic 1997 election broadcast goes a long way towards explaining why many of us would never vote for the Tories:-

by oftenwrong Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:44 pm

Excellent advice from Francis Maude: Fill cans with petrol and then pour it over him.

Or did I misunderstand what he said?

by **Phil Hornby** Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:46 pm

Yeah, you did.

But don't stop on our account... Twisted Evil

by Mel Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:37 pm

sickchip wrote "Would things have been any better if Labour had had the balls to form a coalition with the Lib-Dems and carry on governing? They were totally unreceptive to the idea - why?"

Perhaps this response by a local LD MP to a friend of mine who voted for him and and his LD party at the last election and wishes he had not, will answer your question. He kindly gave me permission to copy the email he received in response to his dissapointment at how the LD's have behaved in favour of the Tories.

"
Thank you for your email.

I do genuinely feel that this was on the whole a positive budget for the vast majority of the country. We did, for example, take over 2 million people out of tax and 20 million are paying less than they were. This doesn’t include the richest in our society, who will have to pay 5 times more after this budget through the Lib Dem Tycoon Tax which includes a stamp duty increases on houses over 2 million, stopping individuals from paying tax on houses by setting up dummy companies to purchase the property as well as various other initiatives.

Obviously we still have a long way to go to see the inequalities between the very richest and poorest reduced in our society. After 13 years of the Labour government it actually got worse, but the budget does make a small progressive start on this long road."

More or less what Gideon had said.

by Redflag Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:00 pm

sickchip wrote:I think the british must be masochists! Isn't it strange that we still want to be put in our place by out of touch with reality Bullingdon club eton toffs. We must, by nature, be a nation of cap doffers.

Then again if we look from lancashire and yorkshire northwards, the tory boys wouldn't get a look in.

Can we dis-own the south - or have a civil war please?

Can I join sickchip and do not forget Scotland we only have ONE Tory MSP voted in a few more on the list and that is where they got the Leader of the Scottish Tories from what we call the list and the Lib/Dems did not do much better, from Lancashire right up to Scotland including Newcastle then we could dis-own the south or if you want to civil war suits me just let me take a baseball bat to a Tories head then I will be very happy.

by witchfinder Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:25 am

Some very encouraging news this morning for Labour supporters, another reputable polling organisation has put the gap between the two main parties at 10 points.

Following on from a poll by ComRes yesterday, this mornings poll in The Sun by YouGov once again puts Labour 10 points ahead, and it is worth pointing out that the move towards Labour began BEFORE the budget.

The wise and cautious commentators at UK Polling Report are suggesting that its down to a combination of factors and not any one particular reason.
The NHS reforms - the budget - the economy and the fact that Ed Miliband seems to be performing much better.

Its a reason to be cautiously optimistic, not a reason to throw a party, there could be three years to go yet, though with the polls as they are, the local elections in a few weeks from now could spark off rebellion - BRING IT ON.

by oftenwrong Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:26 pm

What can the General Public think about Government Ministers who deliberately inflame a Union's strike-ballot into a full-scale buying panic causing unnecessary queues and an artificial shortage? Add to that some frankly dangerous advice to store flammable materials at home and you're looking at a serious failure of leadership.

Might as well get used to it, though.

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:38 pm

More Bollocks from Maude

If the Tories are so great in government, how come they lost the 1997 election and failed to win in 2010? - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLgTHz5U9Zj_fboJnoLHOlaEPP6fEbPelfoheCxapw8IoO2HkNBg

If the Tories are so great in government, how come they lost the 1997 election and failed to win in 2010? - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLgTHz5U9Zj_fboJnoLHOlaEPP6fEbPelfoheCxapw8IoO2HkNBg

(civilsociety.co.uk)

"...and for those of you who live in Scotland I recommend you fill up a Gerry McCann ...."

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