Are the Tories velvet glove fascists?

First topic message reminder :

In my opinion, the UK under our extreme right-wing government is rapidly degenerating into velvet glove fascism.

Like all fascists, Hitler was against trade unions and socialists. Similarly, Michael Gove vilified primary school teachers and dinner ladies, many of whom went on strike for the first time in their lives on 30 November last year, as “militants itching for a fight”. Gove has plans for military cadets in every school (Cameron Youth?) and a return to children sitting in rows reciting lists of kings and queens in history lessons, rather than learning to think. Hitler also realised how important history was to indoctrination when he ordered the mass burning of books. Tories close libraries.

Hitler made sure that he controlled the media. The Tories have cowed the BBC by threats of fragmentation and sharing the licence fee with others, such as Murdoch. The BBC, which was required to be impartial, has become just another mouthpiece for Tory propaganda. As soon as they came to power in 2010, the Tories instructed every minister to repeat over and over again the whopping lie that Labour, not Tory bankers, caused the global credit crisis. We have the repeated lie about everyone in the public sector getting “gold-plated pensions”, when the average is only £5,600 per annum. As Goebbels said: "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Cameron has proved over and over again that he’s a pathological liar.

Hitler divided and ruled the German people by scapegoating Jews and gypsies. The Tories are demonising those who receive benefits, one result of which is that disability hate crimes are increasing. Duncan Smith went on breakfast television on 27 May 2010 and made the chilling remark: "Work makes you free". That's an exact translation of the sign which used to hang over the entrances to concentration camps.

The Tories have plans to force 50,000 disabled youth to work for companies such as Sainsbury's and Tesco's unpaid. Cancer patients are being made to undergo work assessments while being treated with chemotherapy, and wounded soldiers are being sacked. (Osborne is willing to take money from the disabled and cancer patients, but not prepared to veto Hester's bonus from the largely state-owned RBS.)

The police are being trained to shoot people with rubber bullets and will be issued with water cannon, yet the Tories were so keen on helping Arab rebels in North Africa. Two unknown Scottish teenagers made a joke on 'Facebook' about organising riots, and they both received four years in jail. A prominent Tory TV presenter (and personal friend of Cameron) made a tasteless joke about murdering trade unionists on prime time television; nothing was done about it and the BBC continue to pay him £1 million a year of our money.

We don't have any concentration camps in the UK, but the principles are the same - propaganda, indoctrination, and divide and rule by demonising a section of the population. While Hitler gassed Jews, the Tories clearly don't care if benefit claimants starve to death. Even payments from the Social Fund, for those in the most desperate need, will no longer be available from job centres but will be at the 'discretion' of local councils, who will not have to ring-fence the money. All the ingredients of fascism are there, but it's just being handed out to us in a more genteel form than Hitler used - in velvet gloves.

It's possible that Damian Green should be in jail rather than in the government.

i COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH THIS...

bobby wrote:blueturando wrote: They go to leftie training classes for that ATV....It's called criticise the Tories for something we did first, but try not to remember we did it first and if all else fails just ignore or fall silent...If that fails turn red with anger and call everyone a right wing fascist....job done!

Now I know you are nothing but a wind up merchant bluey. Theres only one creature that keeps going red and blows his gasket, and thats your Gloreous Leader Herr Cameron, Leader of the UK Fascist Party.

Bobby that an insult to the creatures of this world, but I do know what you mean about Scam..er..on going RED Especially at PMQs when Ed Miliband asks a question that he does not have the answer too, Instead he uses verbal abuse or some other B/S remark but all that does is show the rest of the World what an A**E H**E he is and that he sits on his brain cell as he only has one.

Hi Red. And if Herr Cameron grew another brain cell, it would still be lonely.

bobby wrote:Hi Red. And if Herr Cameron grew another brain cell, it would still be lonely.

That is something he can not do grow another brain cell, if he can not grow the Economy there is one thing he can grow and that is the Unemployment figures if they where pounds we would be a rich country.

I’d be interested to know what our Tory members make of this article from a traditional Tory newspaper:-

'Suicide training in Job Centres? Cancer patients scrubbing floors? Welcome to Cameron’s Brave New World' by Sonia Poulton.

"Cameron will be remembered as the Prime Minister - without a mandate, remember - who attacked the sick and disabled of our country with a vehemence beyond human comprehension. And when you think that he had a disabled son who tragically passed two years ago, well, then, it beggars belief even more so.

Any disabled or sick person who has been given more than six months to live - and is unable to financially support themselves - will be sent out to work. If they refuse, or back out of a scheme, then they will be subject to benefit sanctions.

Next up in the reforms will be an increase in multiple testing of patients, including those with Alzheimer's and Multiple Sclerosis, to see if they are fit for work. They will be tested repeatedly. It will cost a great deal of money to administer and it will wear already sick people to a pulp.

And as for children who dare to be born disabled, well that assistance previously available to them has been wiped out in Cameron's Armageddon on the poor, yet he claimed Disability Living Allowance for his child - and absolutely did not need to.

There is also, according to recent figures, a 40% increase in disabled attacks in the past year alone. Hardly wonder when the general public are constantly being goaded with the idea that we are 'mugs for supporting scroungers' Perhaps the aim is to finish off the sick and disabled sooner rather than later. Well that way, at least, you get to save on the medical bills of our increasingly privatised National Health Service."

For the full article:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2110900/Suicide-training-Job-Centres-Cancer-patients-scrubbing-floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html#ixzz1oWjIfsOQ

I’d be interested to know what our Tory members make of this article from a traditional Tory newspaper

What it shows Ivan is that dispite all your posturing, the DM writes factual and balanced articles. I know it must p*ss you off seeing these kinda articles in the DM though

Sometimes referred to as "hedging your bets".

the DM writes factual and balanced articles

blue. I suppose there's a first time for everything! Even some people at 'The Daily Mail' can occasionally show the decency and compassion which is so clearly lacking from Cameron and his vile gang of millionaire thugs.

Next you'll be telling us that the BBC is balanced, despite the clear news blackout when it comes to the widely hated NHS Bill. Yesterday thousands marched on Westminster to protest about it, but as the march was peaceful it wasn't even mentioned by the BBC. Instead, we were treated to the usual syrup about Harry Hewitt's Caribbean bar crawl, along with the fact that the Queen doesn't like the colour beige and will travel on scheduled trains while celebrating 60 years on benefits.

I was hoping that you and atv would comment on the actual content of 'The Daily Mail' article, and in particular tell us what you think of the Tory demonisation of the disabled.

blue

It is really saying something when even the DM produce such a damaging article against the Tory criminals.

The disgusting measures being meeted out by this cruel government will be highlighted by some decent people in the /media/press who are obviously deeply ashamed of what they see happening to the people of this country. They cannot fail to see the blatant policies directed at the poor and the sick without thought nor care shown by a ruthless few in government.
A government they have defended and are now seeing the obvious truth that cannot be hidden, nor allowed to continue without comment.

Mel and Ivan.....there are many articles in the DM that criticise the government, especially from the regular DM bloggers

I was hoping that you and atv would comment on the actual content of 'The Daily Mail' article, and in particular tell us what you think of the Tory demonisation of the disabled..

And in your opinion Ivan, how have they done this?

Ivan wrote:I’d be interested to know what our Tory members make of this article from a traditional Tory newspaper:-

'Suicide training in Job Centres? Cancer patients scrubbing floors? Welcome to Cameron’s Brave New World' by Sonia Poulton.

"Cameron. will be remembered as the Prime Minister - without a mandate, remember - who attacked the sick and disabled of our country with a vehemence beyond human comprehension. And when you think that he had a disabled son who tragically passed two years ago, well, then, it beggars belief even more so.

Any disabled or sick person who has been given more than six months to live - and is unable to financially support themselves - will be sent out to work. If they refuse, or back out of a scheme, then they will be subject to benefit sanctions.

Next up in the reforms will be an increase in multiple testing of patients, including those with Alzheimer's and Multiple Sclerosis, to see if they are fit for work. They will be tested repeatedly. It will cost a great deal of money to administer and it will wear already sick people to a pulp.

And as for children who dare to be born disabled, well that assistance previously available to them has been wiped out in Cameron's Armageddon on the poor, yet he claimed Disability Living Allowance for his child - and absolutely did not need to.

There is also, according to recent figures, a 40% increase in disabled attacks in the past year alone. Hardly wonder when the general public are constantly being goaded with the idea that we are 'mugs for supporting scroungers' Perhaps the aim is to finish off the sick and disabled sooner rather than later. Well that way, at least, you get to save on the medical bills of our increasingly privatised National Health Service."

For the full article:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2110900/Suicide-training-Job-Centres-Cancer-patients-scrubbing-floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html#ixzz1oWjIfsOQ

Sounds to me that even the good old DM finds this all very vulger to me....which it is....but always thought spiteful and malevolent act that are utterly vulger summed up the Tory party to a T

Stox 16 wrote:

Ivan wrote:I’d be interested to know what our Tory members make of this article from a traditional Tory newspaper:-

'Suicide training in Job Centres? Cancer patients scrubbing floors? Welcome to Cameron’s Brave New World' by Sonia Poulton.

"Cameron. will be remembered as the Prime Minister - without a mandate, remember - who attacked the sick and disabled of our country with a vehemence beyond human comprehension. And when you think that he had a disabled son who tragically passed two years ago, well, then, it beggars belief even more so.

Any disabled or sick person who has been given more than six months to live - and is unable to financially support themselves - will be sent out to work. If they refuse, or back out of a scheme, then they will be subject to benefit sanctions.

Next up in the reforms will be an increase in multiple testing of patients, including those with Alzheimer's and Multiple Sclerosis, to see if they are fit for work. They will be tested repeatedly. It will cost a great deal of money to administer and it will wear already sick people to a pulp.

And as for children who dare to be born disabled, well that assistance previously available to them has been wiped out in Cameron's Armageddon on the poor, yet he claimed Disability Living Allowance for his child - and absolutely did not need to.

There is also, according to recent figures, a 40% increase in disabled attacks in the past year alone. Hardly wonder when the general public are constantly being goaded with the idea that we are 'mugs for supporting scroungers' Perhaps the aim is to finish off the sick and disabled sooner rather than later. Well that way, at least, you get to save on the medical bills of our increasingly privatised National Health Service."

For the full article:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2110900/Suicide-training-Job-Centres-Cancer-patients-scrubbing-floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html#ixzz1oWjIfsOQ

Sounds to me that even the good old DM finds this all very vulger to me....which it is....but always thought spiteful and malevolent act that are utterly vulger summed up the Tory party to a T

You are too nice to the Tories Stox Uncaring and Utterly nasty is more befitting for them.

blue "And in your opinion Ivan, how have they done this?"

Have you been in hibernation blue?

Typical Tory answer a reasonable question with an unreasonable question.
Cameron is expert at it every time.

And in your opinion Ivan, how have they done this?

blue. If you read the entire Sonia Poulton article, you wouldn't need to ask that:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2110900/Suicide-training-Job-Centres-Cancer-patients-scrubbing-floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html#ixzz1oWjIfsOQ

Alternatively, you could read Sue Marsh's blog, a link to which can always be found on the appropriate board on this forum:-
http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.com/

"Cameron. will be remembered as the Prime Minister - without a mandate, remember - who attacked the sick and disabled of our country with a vehemence beyond human comprehension. And when you think that he had a disabled son who tragically passed two years ago, well, then, it beggars belief even more so.

I wonder if he got DLA for his son? or did he pay for the care himself that would not worry him with both he and his wife are Millionaires and maybe he thinks because he managed it we should too but he forgets we do not have parents that can leave us money.

I hope he is REMEMBERED as the most UNCARING and NASTY PM we have ever had I do think he is "SON OF THATCHER"

The welfare state with the NHS are funded primarily by working people for the purpose of maintaining standards of health and wellbeing, after many hundreds of years of abuse by the rich and powerful. The largest proportion of the UK tax take is from PAYE and National health contributions. The rich and wealthy do all they can to evade or avoid paying taxes, as do Boy Gideon and the Secretary for Defence Phillip Hammond.
We are now in the situation where these mega rich scunbags not only want us to pay for the NHS and welfare, but have and are busying themselves with there destruction. They don’t care that we have done most of the paying, yet they just as Herr Cameron has done, used it to its full, which includes claiming for DLA for his late Son (despite the fact the Cameron’s are worth some £30,000,000). How strange that whilst he was using every facette of the NHS and welfare benefits, he regularly stood on his soapbox telling us how wonderful the NHS was, and how if elected he would protect it, and there would be no top down reforms of the NHS. If the NHS was as he put it “wonderful) why then does he now think it needs a top down restructuring.

This is one thing and one thing only. Tory ideology at its worse. Why should we have a health service that is free at the point of use, and we (Tories) don’t make out of it. As I said we pay, they earn. Why don’t they like anything Nationalised, as I see it there are two reasons, 1/ they don’t make any money from them, 2/ it gives some minister or other some work to do and god forbid they should work for their money. What they want is to rid themselves of as much responsibility as the possibly can, yet you never see a reduction in the size of the Government Cabinet, they will quite happily just sit down, make the occasional speech whilst counting their earnings and expenses. As has been said many time by Mel and others. Much of the damage they have done and are going to do, will be irreparable, this is precisely why they are pushing them through at such a speed, they know they won’t get re-elected (despite what blueturando and atv seem to think), so they need to get them through during this Parliament, as they know they wont get a second chance. I’m sure Herr Cameron will not be party leader come 2015, everyone knows he is a liability, but are happy to let him take the flak for their damaging policies.

Just before the next election campaigning starts they will ditch Herr Cameron, blaming him for all the ills they have inflicted on the Country, and may even go so far as copying Labour and change their name to something like New Conservative’s, but whatever they do, the damage will have been done. We will be paying yet more for lesser services and they will get rich off the back of a privatised NHS. They where born Dirty Bastards, and dirty Bastards is what they will always be,

I wouldn’t go as far as to say they are fascists, but they do seem a generally uninspiring lot. Cameron just seems vacuous to be honest

I wouldn’t go as far as to say they are fascists

It's ok Betty......some on here use that term to justify their own predjudices and envy

OK bluey. Please tell me of one person, you think I am or should be Envious of.

Hello Black Betty. We have a Government who has closed down Library’s, similar in a way as Hitler’s Burning of Books. We now have A Government wanting to form military style units in our schools, similar to the Hitler Youth. We have a Government who are picking on the weak and disabled, just as Hitler did. We have a Government who are pitting different sections of our population against others, just as Hitler did with the Jews.We have a Government who think only of the elite, just as hitler did with his dream of a pure Aryan race. I’m sorry Betty but I see this Government as being more Fascist than even Mussolini, they are doing things even he wouldn’t have done to HIS OWN PEOPLE, whereas Hitler did. So for me the titles of Herr Cameron and Iain Dumkopff Schmidt will remain very apt in their cases.

Left wingers are consumed with envy Bobby....If someone else has it, they want it....for free!!!

Perhaps if people felt that those with moneyt were paying their FAIR share of tax then there would not be what you, Blue, like to simply call envy.....

I wonder I the likes of Bob Diamond opened his tax records and people could see that he had paid just under £3 million in tax, he would not get so much critisim.......

Just a thought?

Blueturando wrote: Left wingers are consumed with envy Bobby....If someone else has it, they want it....for free!!!

I will repeat my question. Please tell me of one person, you think I am or should be envious of.
Not forgetting I am more left wing than right.

Left wingers are consumed with envy Bobby....If someone else has it, they want it....for free!!!

Come on, blue, you can do better than that! If you must post one-liners, you could at least make them witty, as our resident sage often does. That lazy old cliché 'politics of envy' is getting very stale - ever thought of using 'politics of justice', or even 'politics of fairness'?

As for wanting things for free, it seems to me that Lord Ashcroft and Philip Green have always wanted to live here for free, and not contribute anything in taxes. All those who stash their wealth in tax avoidance schemes abroad – few of whom are left-wingers – want something for free. Most of the people with great wealth have obtained it “for free”, few have done a Bill Gates or a Richard Branson. Many have inherited vast wealth “for free” (including Cameron), some from the profits of the slave trade or from stealing land from peasants in the eighteenth century.

Lansley seems quite happy to take £21,000 for his private office for free from a private healthcare company. What about all those Tories who take an MP’s salary and then flit off to the City when they should be attending to their constituents’ affairs? In the last parliament, Francis Maude had four other jobs and one of the worst attendance records at Westminster. What about Boris Johnson, who takes the salary of Mayor of London but farms out the work to five deputies (at taxpayer expense), while he earns his “chicken feed” from ‘The Daily Telegraph’?

blueturando wrote:Left wingers are consumed with envy Bobby....If someone else has it, they want it....for free!!!

Blue> We get nothing for FREE its all paid for with our taxes, and since all the public sectors have been cut does that mean we should get a cut in what we pay in TAX?

blueturando wrote:Left wingers are consumed with envy Bobby....If someone else has it, they want it....for free!!!

Since the rich have - like the bankers - pinched everything they have from us, what's to be envious of? Let's just have it back please, so the world can get on with something more useful.

blue I really am more than surprised that how you can attempt to defend the indefencible.

Unfortunately we have very few Tory supporters here on these threads, ask yourself why.

Is it not the case that many hard core Tories are perhaps ashamed at the
blatant disregard these few so called human beings in charge are showing not only to the House Of Lords, but to the law? Disregard to massive public opinion, professionals and even members of their own party.

These can be no excuses for an arrogant uncaring PM and a bunch of front bench henchmen, who have their own backbenchers worried and yet scared stiff to open their mouths in dissagreement along with the spineless Lib Dems who are happy to be where they are, just for the ride and saddled with a yellow turned blue with a yellow tie and streak.
A sneak if ever there was one, prepared to sell the people of this country down the river for a forgotten infamous place in history.

Indeed Hitler comes to mind, he wouldn't listen to anyone. Same goes for Camer-con.

Bobby, hello

Cameron IMO cannot be compared to Hitler OR Mussolini!!

If, when in Italy you have a drive of 168 miles, how long will you expect that journey to take at an easy 65 - 70 mph?

The journey from Newcastle upon Tyne in England, to Perth in Scotland is 168 miles. The journey takes FOUR AND A HALF HOURS!

The Autobahn and Autostrada would take hours off of that time!

Hitler and Mussolini DID get something right, even if it was austensibly for the movement of their respective military forces.

Mel wrote: Unfortunately we have very few Tory supporters here on these threads, ask yourself why.

I think the answer is quite obvious, first of all to most of the lefties on this forum, all Torys are either thick, stupid, ignorant or scum. Then there is the childish name changing, scameron, camer-con, doris, herr, etc. Even when posts are accompanied with links or names, and reputable non-government bodies they are dismissed as Tory propaganda, or Tory media. Many think this is a left wing forum where the only valid opinions are from Labour supporters or posters who wouldn't vote Tory if their life depended on it.
Most of you now compare Torys to Hitler and fascists, so have in a sense answered your own question.
I am on two other forums, and I have tried without success to get people to join, and claiming we are ashamed when all the coalition is trying to do is put right what Labour messed up, is not going to encourage any Tory to join, but then I think that would probably suit many on this board anyway.

Indeed Hitler comes to mind, he wouldn't listen to anyone.

There were many in the Labour party who claimed Gordon Brown wouldn't listen to anyone, are you going to compare Brown with Hitler? I await with interest.

" to most of the lefties on this forum, all Torys are either thick, stupid, ignorant or scum."

What's 'either ' got to do with it...?

Phil Hornby wrote:" to most of the lefties on this forum, all Torys are either thick, stupid, ignorant or scum."

What's 'either ' got to do with it...?

There you go, my point exactly.

There were many in the Labour party who claimed Gordon Brown wouldn't listen to anyone, are you going to compare Brown with Hitler? I await with interest.

Oh surely not, more of a Seyss-Inquart

So glad to have allied myself with wisdom as penetrating as that from Tory sources...

someone needs a hug lol

blueturando wrote:

I wouldn’t go as far as to say they are fascists

It's ok Betty......some on here use that term to justify their own predjudices and envy

envy of the Tories....get away with you Blue...There far too Sad a party to envy..

Redflag wrote:

Stox 16 wrote:

Ivan wrote:I’d be interested to know what our Tory members make of this article from a traditional Tory newspaper:-

'Suicide training in Job Centres? Cancer patients scrubbing floors? Welcome to Cameron’s Brave New World' by Sonia Poulton.

"Cameron. will be remembered as the Prime Minister - without a mandate, remember - who attacked the sick and disabled of our country with a vehemence beyond human comprehension. And when you think that he had a disabled son who tragically passed two years ago, well, then, it beggars belief even more so.

Any disabled or sick person who has been given more than six months to live - and is unable to financially support themselves - will be sent out to work. If they refuse, or back out of a scheme, then they will be subject to benefit sanctions.

Next up in the reforms will be an increase in multiple testing of patients, including those with Alzheimer's and Multiple Sclerosis, to see if they are fit for work. They will be tested repeatedly. It will cost a great deal of money to administer and it will wear already sick people to a pulp.

And as for children who dare to be born disabled, well that assistance previously available to them has been wiped out in Cameron's Armageddon on the poor, yet he claimed Disability Living Allowance for his child - and absolutely did not need to.

There is also, according to recent figures, a 40% increase in disabled attacks in the past year alone. Hardly wonder when the general public are constantly being goaded with the idea that we are 'mugs for supporting scroungers' Perhaps the aim is to finish off the sick and disabled sooner rather than later. Well that way, at least, you get to save on the medical bills of our increasingly privatised National Health Service."

For the full article:-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2110900/Suicide-training-Job-Centres-Cancer-patients-scrubbing-floors-Welcome-Cameron-s-Brave-New-World.html#ixzz1oWjIfsOQ

Sounds to me that even the good old DM finds this all very vulger to me....which it is....but always thought spiteful and malevolent act that are utterly vulger summed up the Tory party to a T

You are too nice to the Tories Stox Uncaring and Utterly nasty is more befitting for them.

your right Red...had a soft moment...forgiven I hope?

atv wrote " am on two other forums, and I have tried without success to get people to join, and claiming we are ashamed when all the coalition is trying to do is put right what Labour messed up"

You are one of the few atv who come to defend (as I said) the indefencible. However you fail to argue in favour apart from the same old worn out Tory splurge
"trying to put right what Labour messed up.

The reasons given in my post regarding the few Tory supporters here is born out again by yourself in your attempt to engage a few on another forum. No Tory is capable of properly defending these measures and they are ashamed, as I have said. Obviously you are one of the few who are not, how and why is way beyond me and I suspect many decent caring people.

Come on atv, you know deep down that there is no way of defending these
mercinary Tory actions.
Labour lost the election because of being blamed wrongly for the effects of the Global Crisis. It is blatently obvious that the Tories have used the excuse to persue Tory ideology at it's worse, whilst pretending that the measures are needed to get the country back on track.
So far we have seen no improvement, no growth, more unemployment, higher inflation and borrowing. Not at all surprising is it atv, when the wrong medicine is administered to the wrong recipient? Especially and in such a callous, uncaring dogmatic blatent fashion.

Hello Mel Mate.

I’m sure the time will come, even with this Tory led Coalition Government, when some enterprising persons, will invest in their businesses, at the moment any plans for expansion by most (unless your Nissan and get a massive 9.3 million subsidy from the British Taxpayer) have been put on the back burner, due mainly to the incompetence of this Government, and total lack of faith in the UK economy. But they will only wait so long before taking the gamble or squashing their growth plans altogether. Those that will invest will of course be claimed as Tory victories, and nothing said about those who don’t. Human nature will decide, not Herr Cameron

,Quote Mel.

...........................................................how and why is way beyond me and I suspect many decent caring people.



Come on atv, you know deep down that there is no way of defending these
mercinary Tory actions.
Labour lost the election because of being blamed wrongly for the effects of the Global Crisis. It is blatently obvious that the Tories have used the excuse to persue Tory ideology at it's worse, whilst pretending that the measures are needed to get the country back on track.
So far we have seen no improvement, no growth, more unemployment, higher inflation and borrowing. Not at all surprising is it atv, when the wrong medicine is administered to the wrong recipient? Especially and in such a callous, uncaring dogmatic blatent fashion.

That's what I like about you Mel. The softly, softly approach:lol:

Excuse the musing for a moment. While I read your post, for some reason my father popped into my head. He was a fairly mild tempered man but there were two words that would really get him going. 'Margaret Thatcher'. He would never use the name. It was always 'that woman'.

Do you think he had a point?

Trev, Your Father was obveously a Gentleman, you should have heard what my old Dad Called her.