Sudanese woman sentenced to stoning death over adultery claims

by Talwar_Punjabi Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I am utterly dismayed and to say the least, distraught, that this sentence may be carried out. I do hope there is an international protest at this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/31/sudanese-woman-stoning-death-adultery?INTCMP=SRCH

by starlight07 Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:49 am

The change should come from within any community ... as for being a pampered princess, I can assure you I am not at all pampered. Personally I am against death penalty for any reason whether it is issued by religion or law.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 2:30 pm

The change should come from within any community ...

How does change come about when the community laws forbid change and kill those who try ?

by snowyflake Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:18 pm

The change should come from within any community ...

The websites posted are from women within muslim communities. Why OW opposes supporting these women is beyond reason. He has yet to explain his reason. Criticism is warranted when Islam is being used in such a way as to uphold cultural abuses.

Everyone deserves to live their life in freedom with the right to speak, criticise, publish those practices that deny basic human rights. Cultural/religious differences is not an excuse to abuse, subjugate or prevent access to education for women and girls around the world.

as for being a pampered princess, I can assure you I am not at all pampered.

If you say so.

Personally I am against death penalty for any reason whether it is issued by religion or law.

Good for you.

by boatlady Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:42 pm

I'm joining this discussion with a little trepidation because I know how high emotions rise in relation to these issues.
It seems to me that the issue of oppression of women in Muslim countries is really difficult for us in the West because we are not there, we have no direct personal knowledge of these events, they take place within a cultural and social setting that we do not always fully understand, and, most upsetting and frustrating of all, we are, by and large, powerless to do anything about them.
Thus, it seems to me, we suffer from a form of 'survivors guilt', which can lead to some very ill-natured and unpleasant exchanges, as well as some very rigid and unhelpful attitudes.
OW is often accused of not caring, of supporting the abuse of women - I'm very sure that isn't the truth - he does, however, want to debate the issues and to raise a critical and questioning voice in the debate, which is often what I would like to do.
In a lengthy discussion via pm on this forum the following accusation was levelled at me :-

you excuse, apologize for, and thus implicitly support this and similar acts of brutal extermination perpetrated by bestial male life forms upon powerless, innocent women right now in Muslim nations from Somalia to Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan.

This was an unwarranted attack, by someone who knows little about me, and was based simply on the fact that I was not in full agreement with every detail of opinions expressed by them.
I seems to me that people are trying to engage with this discussion, but unless they are completely going along with the rhetoric and the 'party line' no-one wants to hear what they have to say.
Like every one of you, I am outraged, distressed and angry about what seems to be happening to women in some parts of the world; however, my options for making a difference are limited, and do depend on actually understanding the issues. For this, I do find the critical and also the sometimes naive cvontributions to be just as helpful as the impassioned rhetoric of those who have made their minds up. I would be very pleased if those people also freely had their say.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:04 pm

Misogyny existed before religion, it is an unfortunate relic of our evolution( might is right), it appeals to the primordial instincts of the dominant male and the subservient female. Some cultures supported by religious text promote the basic roles of provider and breeder, in this context paternity is key, a woman is in no doubt who is the mother, not so the father. These old moral codes demonize the female instinct to breed to protect male paternity claims, there is some evidence that females may have bred with many men and the fittest sperm killed the weaker sperms. It certainly explains why all religions are so anti-female and anti-sex.

On the other hand if a woman wants to be provided for and sees her purpose in life is to breed and support her partner, then no one can claim this is misogyny. As long as the culture promotes freedom of choice then no harm no foul, Islam does not promote female equality and there are little choices for women.

by Tosh Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:29 pm

When you worship fertility ( see Venus of Willendorf), one is in effect worshiping sex, it is possible that the cro-magnon hunter-gatherer cultures of 30-10,000 bce were " gang bang " cultures.

Environmental conditions in Europe may have been so harsh that males competing against males for sexual selection may not have been feasible. Maybe a cultural compromise arose whereby the limited number of women had sex with many partners one after the other, and the fittest sperm survived.

It would explain why men enjoying watching porn more than women and why women fantasize more about gang bangs than men.

Once urbanisation kicked in, human behaviour became our biggest survival threat, and human nature is dominated by sex.

Anyway carry on.

by snowyflake Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:56 pm

Like every one of you, I am outraged, distressed and angry about what seems to be happening to women in some parts of the world; however, my options for making a difference are limited, and do depend on actually understanding the issues. For this, I do find the critical and also the sometimes naive cvontributions to be just as helpful as the impassioned rhetoric of those who have made their minds up. I would be very pleased if those people also freely had their say.

OW accuses people on this forum of racism when what is happening is warranted criticism. Just because cultural attitudes are the norm in some societies does not make them ethical or moral. And OW does not want people to interfere in other people's lives. He believes it is none of our business.

You are very wrong if you think you can't make a difference. You can. It just takes a bit of effort. Both of the websites that are posted and numerous other websites can put pressure on governments and judiciary to repeal a death sentence such as stoning. There are people on the ground, lawyers and other advocates who fight very hard for these women who are sentenced to death mostly for sexual "crimes". OW would have us mind our own business and turn away. Other women are raped and then jailed for adultery, kidnapped and forced to marry their kidnapper who is also often their rapist. Child marriage, paedophilia, female circumcision and other horrific things that are done to girls and women for the simple fact of their gender.

I see you have a soft spot for OW and that is commendable but he is wrong if he thinks that people should just mind their own business. Every person has a right to live a happy life with their human rights respected. Women and girls in some countries live a life of utter subjugation without benefit of education and are just there as breeding machines. There is more to women than this. We are lucky in the West. We have choices and we have the law to support and protect us when men behave badly. Not so in some countries.

I'm all for a nice discussion, boatlady, but when one poster accuses another of racism, that will put the binders on any discussion.

by snowyflake Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:59 pm

Also, boatlady, although it is not a rule as such: Messages in pm are meant to be private and not shared with the rest of the board. That's why they are called private message.

by **Ivan** Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:57 pm

Hello snowy. It’s good to see you here. Smile

You’re correct in saying there is no written rule that the contents of private messages shouldn’t be disclosed on the open forum, but not to do so is a matter of etiquette. However, in boatlady’s defence, she hasn’t named the author of the clip which she posted to illustrate how strongly people feel about the issue under discussion, so no real harm has been done.

What was inexcusable was when an administrator displayed the whole of a private email on her forum, and when a member who sprayed adverts all over Cutting Edge then circulated to all and sundry the email telling him to refrain from such pursuits.

Regards,
Ivan

by Tosh Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:11 am

And OW does not want people to interfere in other people's lives. He believes it is none of our business.

Nonsense, never met a commie yet who doesn't want to interfere in the lives of others.

by oftenwrong Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:16 am

Who dat?

Sudanese woman sentenced to stoning death over adultery claims - Page 2 251-53

by Tosh Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:56 am

There is a big difference between bitching (for ideological reasons) about a tiny minority of foreigners who abuse the welfare state, and bitching about severe human rights abuse in foreign countries.

The developed world is by no means perfect but our heart is in the right place, sometimes.

by boatlady Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:30 pm

snowyflake wrote:Also, boatlady, although it is not a rule as such: Messages in pm are meant to be private and not shared with the rest of the board. That's why they are called private message.

I think the rule about any information held by me is that it is mine to share, unless by sharing it I breach someone else's right to confidentiality.
In this case, I chose to share some very uncomplimentary comments made about me by someone who didn't know me as an illustration of the way that, in emotive topics like these, the normal rules of debate can be set aside in favour of personal vilification of someone who refuses to produce the same level of moral outrage.

This is not, to my view, conducive to an interesting or a constructive debate, and may explain why these threads are usually frequented by the same people all the time.

by oftenwrong Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:49 pm

Clique. That's the word which seems appropriate. The little coterie of fellow-travellers who meet to insult each others' intelligence on threads like this one are not welcoming of interlopers who don't play to their self-imposed rules.

There is a resemblance to Crufts. If you're not a breeder you're merely a day ticket-holder.

by Tosh Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:13 pm

Am I in or out of this obvious clique ? scratch

by snowyflake Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:44 pm

Boatlady, you are not aware of the years of discussions or OW's input into them. Discussions ought to proceed politely but I, for one, object very strongly to being accused of or implying that I am a racist. OW does not offer his reasons for implying this. He mostly just offers snide comments from the sidelines and then runs away from any further discussion.

Now, if OW cares to rephrase his comments then I am prepared to forgive and forget and if he ever wishes to actually engage in a proper discussion, everyone here would love that. It would be actually useful if, instead of lobbing insults from the sidelines, he actually tried to understand other's points of view as well.

A forum is a bit of give and take. We all have our views and we all like to discuss them. OW does himself no favours by not participating in the discussions. Perhaps, you will have more luck with him.

the normal rules of debate can be set aside in favour of personal vilification of someone who refuses to produce the same level of moral outrage.

OW's moral outrage is at people sticking their noses into other people's business. This is not an issue about whether or not the neighbours have put the right colour bin out by the road. This about the lives and safety of women and girls around the world. I have asked him repeatedly why he thinks this way and all we get is a snide nonsense comment.

Discussion is a 2-way street, boatlady. I am just a little miffed that you have passed judgement without knowing the full story.

by boatlady Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:32 pm

Don't think I've passed judgement - have simply passed a comment, based on personal experience.
And maybe asked a question?
Glad to hear that you feel discussion is a two-way street.
That's about the way I feel.
Maybe now would be the time for those 'day ticket holders' to step in and have their say?

by snowyflake Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:54 pm

OW is often accused of not caring, of supporting the abuse of women - I'm very sure that isn't the truth - he does, however, want to debate the issues and to raise a critical and questioning voice in the debate, which is often what I would like to do.

This comment is a judgement based on very little information.

It seems to me that people are trying to engage with this discussion, but unless they are completely going along with the rhetoric and the 'party line' no-one wants to hear what they have to say.

That is also a judgement. You would have to know OW and his input into these discussions which is usually very little. OW is here each day, every day, all day and the most we get out of him on these threads are throw away comments that do nothing to promote the discussion. So if OW wants to engage in a discussion as a 2-way exchange, I'm sure others would participate but the bottom line is the ball is in OW's court.

Anyway, OW should be able to speak for himself now. I'm sure he's a big boy. Courtesy and mutual respect are also a 2-way street.

If you have something to add to this discussion, boatlady, we can continue from there if you like.

by boatlady Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:06 am

Opinions, not judgements - seemingly not welcome.

by starlight07 Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:31 am

Tosh wrote:
The change should come from within any community ...

How does change come about when the community laws forbid change and kill those who try ?

Strength comes from 'unity' and if you have all women/men standing up for the same then how many people can you kill?

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:38 am

Strength comes from 'unity' and if you have all women/men standing up for the same then how many people can you kill?

You are assuming unity exists and there seems little evidence of this within any Muslim community, and divinely inspired cultural laws can kill as many as they like with complete impunity.

by starlight07 Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:49 am

oftenwrong wrote:Who dat?

Haifa Wehbe. Miss Lebanon .... a sex symbol in the Arab World.

by Tosh Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:16 pm

Haifa Wehbe. Miss Lebanon .... a sex symbol in the Arab World.

I suggest she stays in Lebanon safe under civil law, no concerts in Afghanistan methinks.

by snowyflake Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:09 pm

Opinions, not judgements - seemingly not welcome.

Not to be too much of a stickler here, boatlady, but an opinion is a judgement.

Of course, your opinions and the opinions of others are welcome. Many of us on this board discuss quite heatedly many things that we are passionate about. If people want to discuss that's great but that takes some exchange of information. If someone wishes to imply that I am a racist because I happen to be passionate about human rights and particularly about women's/girl's rights, then the gloves are off.

It might do to get to know us a little bit before deciding we are all horrible because we gave OW a verbal cuff upside his haid for not explaining himself.....ever.

We would love to hear your opinions but if the responses you get are not as nice, accepting or tolerant as you would like them to be, well, that's the nature of the personalities on this board. For the most part, we are quite friendly with each other. We have been discussing for over 3 years on various forum boards so we know each other.

So please, I, for one would love for you to join us in discussions. Take care.

by boatlady Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:51 pm

We have been discussing for over 3 years on various forum boards so we know each other.

Good for you

by snowyflake Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:55 pm

Good for you

Ahhhhh, I see....not so tolerant as you like to make out you are Smile

Well, suit yourself. You are very welcome to join us in any case.

by snowyflake Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:13 pm

Hello snowy. It’s good to see you here. Smile

Hi Ivan

Sorry, I missed this. Hope you are well. The administrator who betrayed your trust is just as wrong IMO. If people don't wish to receive pm's then they can opt for that in their settings. Alternatively, they can delete the message without reading it.

Take care of yourself. Give Molly a biscuit for me please. Smile

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:49 am

Meanwhile, a Ford advert for their MPV in India ....

Sudanese woman sentenced to stoning death over adultery claims - Page 2 6B9C75EDF091BC11E784677EF44CD0

Sudanese woman sentenced to stoning death over adultery claims - Page 2 6B9C75EDF091BC11E784677EF44CD0

(series now withdrawn)

by Tosh Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:15 pm

Oh well, nothing much to chat about, time to poke ow with a sharp stick.

Clique. That's the word which seems appropriate. The little coterie of fellow-travellers who meet to insult each others' intelligence on threads like this one are not welcoming of interlopers who don't play to their self-imposed rules.

There is a clique of contributors to these threads and sage, you are not one of them, you are a non contributor, sitting safely in the stands out of harms way compiling pretentious insults.

So go away and count edits or check spelling or flick through some more famous quotes because yet again your post is devoid of any content.

by Tosh Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:22 pm

Seemingly foreigners have the right to suffer abuse without xenophobes poking their noses into their liberties.

Ever read a left wing manifesto ?

by Guest Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:24 pm

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Domestic violence in Pakistan
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Domestic violence in Pakistan is an endemic social problem. According to a study carried out in 2009 by Human Rights Watch, it is estimated that between 70 and 90 percent of women in Pakistan have suffered some form of abuse.^[1] An estimated 5000 women are killed per year from domestic violence, with thousands of others maimed or disabled.^[2] The majority of victims of violence have no legal recourse. Law enforcement authorities do not view domestic violence as a crime and usually refuse to register any cases brought to them. Given the very few women's shelters in the country, victims have limited ability to escape from violent situations.^[2]

Lisa Hajjar, an Associate Professor at the University of California, describes abuse against women in Pakistan as "endemic in all social spheres".^[3] In an observational study published in the Pakistan Journal of Medical Sciences based on a "convenience" sample of 218 women in the gynecology wards of three hospitals, 97% of the interviewed women said they had been victims of some form of assault, ranging from verbal abuse or threatened, to being subjected to beatings or non-consensual sex.^[4]

Women are often attacked and murdered if their in-laws deem their dowry to have been insufficient.^[6] Amongst dowry-related violence, bride burnings, also known as "stove deaths",^[7] are widely reported. In 1988 a survey showed that 800 women were killed in this manner, in 1989 the number rose to 1100, and in 1990 it stood at 1800 estimated killings. Newspapers in Lahore in a six-month period (1997) reported on average 15 attacks a month.^[9] Women's eNews reported that 4,000 women had been attacked in this manner in Islamabad's surroundings over an eight-year period, and that the average age range of victims was between 18 and 35, with an estimated 30 percent being pregnant at the time of death.^[7] The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan reported that about four women are killed in this manner every day, by either family members or husbands.^[10] Shahnaz Bukhari, who runs the Progressive Women's Association in Islamabad, has said of such attacks: "Either Pakistan is home to possessed stoves which burn only young housewives, and are particularly fond of genitalia, or looking at the frequency with which these incidences occur there is a grim pattern that these women are victims of deliberate murder."^[7]

Acid attacks in Pakistan came to international attention after the release of a documentary by Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy called Saving Face (2012).^[11] Various reasons have been given for such attacks, such as a woman dressing inappropriately or rejecting a proposal of marriage. According to the Acid Survivors Foundation, up to 150 attacks occur every year. The foundation reports that the attacks are often the result in an escalation of domestic abuse, and the majority of victims are female.^[11]

Another reason given for abuses is patriarchalism in Islamic society, which marginalizes women’s role.^[17] In some traditional societies, a man is considered to have the right to physically beat his spouse.^[5] According to Rahel Nardos, it is "the dual constructs of women as the property of men and as the standard-bearers of a family's honour set the stage for culturally sanctioned forms of violence".^[18] Women have reported attacks ranging from physical to psychological and sexual abuse from partners, in-laws and family members.^[19] In 1998 of 1974 reported murders the majority of victims were killed by either family members or In laws.^[17] A survey carried out by the Thomson Reuters Foundation ranked Pakistan as the third most dangerous country in the world for women, after Afghanistan and the Democratic Republic of Congo; it is followed by India and Somalia.^[20]

Retrieved 4 April 2013 from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_Pakistan

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by Guest Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:29 pm

starlight07, Sunday 31 March 2013, 21:38

Oh well, it wasn't a bad ending then.

It has not ended in the country of your ancestors and/or your origin.

RockOnBrother, Thursday 4 April 2013, 16:24

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:32 pm

Tosh wrote:....

There is a clique of contributors to these threads and sage, you are not one of them ....

Any more startling flashes of perception to share with us, Tosh?

e.g. The Pope is a Catholic

by Tosh Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:46 pm

Any more startling flashes of perception to share with us, Tosh?

Any more selective editing and I will be sharing a lot with you Sage.

by Tosh Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:47 pm

Texas, do you have to print out wiki's terms and conditions, or is this yet another example of your precision ?

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:08 pm

Have you noticed, Tosh, that (Moderators apart) there are only five other people posting on your thread here?

Select, or what !

by Tosh Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:53 pm

Have you noticed, Tosh, that (Moderators apart) there are only five other people posting on your thread here?

Wherever I post hundreds( cough) follow to read and admire, the select few who post are my co-performers but I am the star( not Star).

The golden age of message boards is gone but in the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage.

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:39 pm

Alas, poor Steinbeck, his voice we'll hear no more ....

by Guest Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:28 am

Somalia: Horrendous Violence Against Women Enabled by Culture of Impunity

From AllAfrica:

“Sexual violence remains part of daily life for many women living in camps for internally displaced people.

According to the United Nations refugee agency UNHCR, after years of war rape has become a threat to women in Somalia whenever they move along roads, due to the presence of militia at illegal roadblocks and in IDP settlements such as Galkayo, which hosts about 50,000 persons.

One of them, 33-year-old Hibo, a widow, told UNHCR that security had improved slightly since a small police station was built nearby. “However, three women were still assaulted each night, she told UNHCR. “I don’t expect much help from the police. They cannot do anything and the culprit might take revenge if I dare complain,” she said.

A nurse said, “Women are raped almost daily on the isolated outskirts of the town. We systematically do a tetanus shot; since young Somali women are genitally mutilated and infibulated, rapists always use a knife to rip their vagina open.”

“We encourage them to talk because we want to make sure they won’t commit suicide. But sometimes we find out the truth only when it is too late. We also care for several pregnant women who look perfectly normal. Once they deliver, they kill their baby and this is how we understood that they had been raped.”

http://www.feministpeacenetwork.org/2007/11/30/somalia-horrendous-violence-against-women-enabled-by-culture-of-impunity/

Sexual Violence Against Women Soars In Somalia

Recently there's been an increase in various forms of sexual abuse against women, ranging from forced marriages to gang rapes.

… groups in the region are using sexual violence as a weapon of war. According to the New York Times, members of the Shabab militant group… have taken to forcing families to arrange marriages between soldiers and their daughters. The arrangement [are] actually just a form of sex slavery… girls who try to resist are killed.

Often militants… will simply seize women and girls to be raped and abused… unaffiliated bands of armed men or government soldiers are raping women as they travel… or after they settle into refugee camps.

http://jezebel.com/5871512/sexual-violence-against-women-soars-in-somalia

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:00 am

Thank God there is no rape nor domestic violence in the Christian cultures, men are too busy loving their neighbour but not in a gay way of course.

by Tosh Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:48 am

Where does it say in Islamic scripture it is ok to rape a woman ?

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