To hate Jews is to hate God

by Greatest I am Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

To hate Jews is to hate God.

If you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, then you must believe that God planned for it and set the conditions even before the earth was formed. If as most believe, the Jews were the cause of the sacrifice, then one must believe that God put the notion and desire to kill Jesus in the Jewish hearts. Jews then were God’s tools in carrying out God’s plan. Jews then should be venerated just as Jesus is because Jesus and Jews were required and caused by God to participate in the sacrifice. They were all doing God’s will and not their own.

Jesus was a Jew and to hate Jews means that Jesus is also hated. The church has historically persecuted Jews and only repented for their actions in 2011 with the pope acknowledging that not all Jews should be hated. Just those directly involved in the sacrifice of Jesus. Ignoring of course that they were charged directly by God to be and do what God wanted.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/jews-not-responsible-for-death-of-christ-pope-says-49267/

Why then have Christians historically hated Jews, and by inference, hate the Jew part of God/Jesus the Jew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

The weird twist to this history is that the Christian right who hates Jews the most, is now the ones pushing for funding of the Jewish homeland to fulfill prophesy.

Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL

by polyglide Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:16 pm

You are Snowyflake just like Shirina, an internet user who is unable to think for themselves and just quote others I

You talk absolute nonsense, do I have to study medicine to know if someone is dead? do I have to have a degree in histyory to know the date of the Battle of Hastings?etc; etc;

I deal in comman sense.

I have asked you to give me an example of the manner in which a butterfly evolved.

I have requested information regarding the Big Bang.

None of any sense forthcoming.

Just a load of information you have gleaned from those who you agree with and totally ignore those who disagree.

I take no notice of either I consider what I can see and what I have experienced over many years and there is no sounder basis for anyone's opinions,

You can ask me to quote on any matter under the sun and I can come up with a load of information that I do not understand and that you would not either, I think for myself and do not rely on the thoughts of others most of whom have an axe of their own to grind.

by Shirina Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:44 pm

You are Snowyflake just like Shirina, an internet user who is unable to think for themselves and just quote others

Yeah, polyglide, because science is exacting. I can't just make stuff up, and since I'm not in the business of biological research, I don't go around pretending that I am. You know what they say about opinions, right?

Sometimes actual proven facts are a refreshing change.

You talk absolute nonsense, do I have to study medicine to know if someone is dead? do I have to have a degree in histyory to know the date of the Battle of Hastings?etc; etc;

So you're saying that we don't need an education? Heh ... how typical. Do you know how many people were buried alive because people couldn't really tell when someone was dead? It became such a real fear among people that specialized caskets were invented that could alert people up top that someone down below was alive. And then people studied medicine ... whoops! I guess we should have stayed ignorant.

I deal in comman sense.

Obviously you don't deal in spelling - but that's neither here or there. You can go right on dealing in ONLY common sense, but what you believe and what you know are two different things. I remember the first time I ate in a fancy restaurant. I think I was around 8 or 9 years old. It was at that age when you can be a little bit clumsy and gangly. And I was confronted with a plethora of different spoons and forks. I had no idea why, but common sense told me that I had all of this silverware in case I dropped a fork or spoon and I wouldn't have to bother the waiter for another. After all, he's busy with lots of other customers. Makes sense, doesn't it? Because I drew upon my own personal experiences of being clumsy and dropping silverware, it was common sense to me for the restaurant to give me a lot of silverware. But, yeah, I was dead wrong!

That's why common sense only gets you so far. I had to rely on the knowledge of others to understand that each piece of silverware was used for different types of foods. I never would have figured that out otherwise.

I have asked you to give me an example of the manner in which a butterfly evolved.

Why does the information have to come from myself or Snowyflake for it to be valid? That's utterly baffling. If you were REALLY interested in this, you would find out on your own. But noooooooo, you're hanging on to this whole butterfly and eye thing because you think it's good ammo against us. The problem is that we're not ignorant. Snowy and I know enough about evolution to know what game you're playing at, and as my mother always said, "If you don't like the rules, don't play the game." Well guess what ....

I have requested information regarding the Big Bang.

Do I look like a library to you? Are you going to pay me a teacher's salary? Because I am NOT going to sit here typing away until my fingers throb for the next week to teach you about the Big Bang when libraries and the internet is FULL of information. I don't have any special insights on the Big Bang so hearing it from me wouldn't be any different than hearing it from Dr. Niel Tyson-DeGrasse, Dr. Michio Kaku, Dr. Stephen Hawking, Dr. Andrea Ghez, and the thousands of other cosmologists and physicists out there writing books and publishing papers.

Just a load of information you have gleaned from those who you agree with and totally ignore those who disagree.

LOL! I haven't ignored Creationists. I've spent hours reading their websites and watching their videos. And they are patently absurd. Sorry, but they are. I even gave you an example of how Kent Hovind and his son actually teach that there was a 1,000 km thick ice sheath encircling the globe just above the atmosphere, and the Great Flood occurred when that sheath melted. LOL! and ROFL! Even the science YOU accept rules that out, and no, you can't pull some cheap-assed argument like "God suspended the laws of physics to allow such an ice sheath" because I'll laugh you right off this board if you try.

Not only that, but far too many Creationists have an agenda. Yeah, I mean a REAL agenda other than truth. For instance, the Institute of Creation Research actually says that evolution is a threat to religion and an affront to human morality. Heh ... that's an agenda. And this gets me every time:

"The creation record is factual, historical, and perspicuous; thus all theories of origins or development that involve evolution in any form are false."

LOL! That's taken directly from their website. They've ALREADY determined that evolution is false, so my question is: What the eff is the point? Why does this group even exist, then, if evolution is all a big pack of lies? They've already declared their conclusion, haven't they? So obviously they are mired in ridiculous amounts of a) pushing a political agenda and b) confirmation bias. And THAT is a big reason why I don't often bother with Creationists except for the giggle factor.

I think for myself and do not rely on the thoughts of others most of whom have an axe of their own to grind.

Liar. Yeah, you're lying. You take the Bible as truth. Did you write the Bible? Of course you didn't. So there you are, relying on the thoughts of others and not thinking for yourself.

This must be debate amateur hour or something.

by oftenwrong Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:57 pm

What time do we get to the hair-pulling, please?

by snowyflake Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:26 pm

I admit to being out of practice and am rather poor at the non-serious type of give and take. Mine was alway serious.
I was quite good at it before finding my wife though.

Hey DL I'm just teasing Smile

by snowyflake Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:43 pm

You talk absolute nonsense, do I have to study medicine to know if someone is dead?

LOL!!! You think identifying death is the only use from studying medicine? What a maroon.

You wouldn't know comman (sic) sense if it came up and bit you on your behind. You have to have knowledge if you wish to debate on a subject. All you are doing is being opinionated. This is not debate.

If you are not willing to do your own studying of established scientific theories, then you are barking up the wrong tree, mister. Why should any of us waste our time trying to teach you science when you're only response thus far has been, 'No it's not'. I've pointed you to several websites that you could study. They all have references if you want to actually see the papers or the journals they are written in. You can go to the library and take out a science book or buy them off Amazon. Stop being so lazy and get off your duff and do your own research that doesn't involve Christian websites that are full of doo-doo. Look for reproducible evidence. Then when you know what you are talking about or have a question then you can at least defend your corner.

Again, if you want to debate on a topic please pick something you actually know something about. You know nothing of science.

I take no notice of either I consider what I can see and what I have experienced over many years and there is no sounder basis for anyone's opinions,

Are you claiming to have seen God now? The looney bins are full of people who have seen God, polyglide.

by polyglide Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:52 am

I did not write the Bible, as anyone with common sense would realise, I may be a little old but not that old.

What I take as truth is what I see,experience and consider against all that may apply to any subject that is involved.

I have not seen God as an entity but in his works and experiences I have known.

What the world is full of is deluded people who think they have all the answers and just look where it is getting them.

by oftenwrong Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:19 pm

What the world is full of is deluded people who think they have all the answers and just look where it is getting them.

How true, polyglide, how very, very true.

by polyglide Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:18 am

North Korea being a prime example.

by oftenwrong Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:14 pm

Thank Heaven SOMEBODY is dealing with the problem of North Korea. Are you gonna nuke 'em, polyglide, or convert their beliefs away from the cult of Kim Il Sung?

by Shirina Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:20 pm

North Korea being a prime example.

North Koreans are under the auspices of a dictatorship - just like Christians.

by Guest Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:41 pm

Removed because it is offensive to my friend.

by Greatest I am Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:53 pm

snowyflake wrote:
I admit to being out of practice and am rather poor at the non-serious type of give and take. Mine was alway serious.
I was quite good at it before finding my wife though.

Hey DL I'm just teasing

Being French, I often miss the subtleties of intent from the English. That is why I stay on the serious side unless face to face.
Bad enough that even when I write something neutral, it is often read as ignorant.

That may be why there were so many wars between the French and the British.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:57 pm

polyglide wrote:I did not write the Bible, as anyone with common sense would realise, I may be a little old but not that old.

What I take as truth is what I see,experience and consider against all that may apply to any subject that is involved.

I have not seen God as an entity but in his works and experiences I have known.

What the world is full of is deluded people who think they have all the answers and just look where it is getting them.

The the right place. Ridding themselves of religion.

Spirituality and it's growth is good.

Religions are not.

Regards
DL

by snowyflake Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:57 pm

Hey DL I'm Canadian. We love the British and the French Smile

by Greatest I am Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:49 pm

snowyflake wrote:

Hey DL I'm Canadian. We love the British and the French

Some do for sure but the English Canadians are touch and go thanks to Quebec.

They blame the French for all the Separatist noise but forget that If they had not screwed Rene Levesque all would likely be well.
They have yet to redress that and apologise and without that, the French will never let up. Trust me I know. I am French.

http://www.cbc.ca/history/EPISCONTENTSE1EP17CH1PA3LE.html

Quebec does not care what it costs them or English Canada. They will not relent till they get some kind of satisfaction.

The English will learn the hard way that you do not insult the French.

Regards
DL

by Guest Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:54 am

French Canadians are disliked in Acadia. French Canadians are disliked in France, including the French department off the coast of Newfoundland.

by snowyflake Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:48 am

French Canadians are disliked in Acadia. French Canadians are disliked in France, including the French department off the coast of Newfoundland.

French Canadians are not disliked any more than Americans are disliked. My two sisters in law and my ex-husbands wife are French Canadian, thorougly lovely ladies (ex-husband is a giant phallus but his wife is lovely Smile

Most of them are wonderful people.

The whole separatist movement in Quebec has died a slow and painful death. There are likely still rumblings but not much any more. The reason English Canada has any grudge against French Canada is down to the demands that the French make. They are Canadians first and that is what they should get behind. The English speaking Canadians do not consider themselves British. Most of us are Canadian of some or other descent. French Canadians are Canadians of French descent. They should be called Canadian French.

by Guest Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:19 am

by snowyflake Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:06 am

Do you call yourself American or African-American, Rock? Smile

by oftenwrong Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:05 pm

Remarkable there hasn't been a Racist element to the postings to this thread, isn't it?

by Guest Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:02 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Remarkable there hasn't been a Racist element to the postings to this thread, isn't it?

So says one whose bacon (literally, along with his eggs, toast, and everything else U-boat besieged Brits needed to avoid starvation) by Royal Canadian Navy sailors who risked and sacrificed their lives to escort merchant vessels halfway across the Atlantic so he could eat. It’s a damned shame that many Brits have now turned their backs on their Canadian brothers in their haste to court Germany, which tried to bomb the UK into oblivion to force Brits to “heel” at the boots of German masters, and France, which would be nothing more than a German footstool and toilet if Canadians had not liberated the low countries and opened up Dutch ports to the allied war materiel that allowed the Western allies to eventually wore Germany down.

by snowyflake Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:42 pm

Remarkable there hasn't been a Racist element to the postings to this thread, isn't it?

Racism seems to rear its ugly head only when you're in the room, OW. I wonder why?

by Guest Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:08 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Remarkable there hasn't been a Racist element to the postings to this thread, isn't it?
Racism seems to rear its ugly head only when you're in the room, OW. I wonder why?

I also wonder why?

by Guest Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:34 pm

by oftenwrong Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:13 pm

bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

by Guest Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:01 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

So take that piece of six by four lumber out of your eye as soon as possible.

by oftenwrong Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:44 pm

A serious departure from the customary half-a-page dissertation of He-said-and-I-said-then-they-said-and-the-Greek-Bible-says.

Is that progress?

by snowyflake Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:51 pm

Progress would be if you added something, anything, to a discussion OW.

Why don't you try it? That's what a forum is all about and I think you've been missing the point all these years.

by polyglide Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:17 am

The blame for most of the worlds problems and the inability for everyone to work together for the common cause is selfishness and intollerance.

This is brought about in many ways.

Why like the French and the Americans for example and why not the Russians or the Germans?.

There is one thing for certain there is good and bad in every corner of the earth and Humans are the only cause in one way or another.

by Greatest I am Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:09 pm

polyglide wrote:The blame for most of the worlds problems and the inability for everyone to work together for the common cause is selfishness and intollerance.

This is brought about in many ways.

Why like the French and the Americans for example and why not the Russians or the Germans?.

There is one thing for certain there is good and bad in every corner of the earth and Humans are the only cause in one way or another.

I agree but we cannot help but do some evil to each other otherwise we would go extinct and the human race would be the loser instead of just individuals.

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

by polyglide Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:06 am

No one has to do anything they do not want to do.

I agree all humans are put in positions of choice all the time including the choice of good or evil and at times through many situations every human will be tested, not by God but by prevailing circumstances.

A person can fall down in the street and several others pass and not bother whilst another may pick the person up and help them etc; all concerned had a choice.

God knows that with the Devil about man will be tested to the limit and has indicated so by saying even the most evil of deeds will be forgiven if one accepts his offer of forgiveness.

God did not make man evil, man invented evilness by thinking he knows best.

As I have pointed out previously, you can manufacture a machine and give all that is necessary for it's maintenance that would ensure it's life expectancy and if followed would do so, however, forget to follow the instructions an BINGO.

by snowyflake Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:10 pm

God knows that with the Devil about man will be tested to the limit and has indicated so by saying even the most evil of deeds will be forgiven if one accepts his offer of forgiveness.

This is disturbing. The sexual predator who murdered a 6 year old girl while she prayed for God to save her, will be forgiven for his heinous crime? Why didn't God save her from evil? She prayed. Ask and ye shall be given.

What a crock.

by Shirina Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:28 pm

This is disturbing.

It IS disturbing. What it says is that morality really doesn't count for anything. Good or evil, it really doesn't matter as long as you repent and believe in Jesus before you die. Only a lack of belief sends one to hell, not immoral acts. It means that Hitler could be sitting at the right hand of God in Heaven while the kindest, most Christ-like atheist will burn forever in Hell. Imagine if our courts worked that way so that the man who murdered 20 kindergarten children at Sandy Hook could walk free simply by apologizing to the judge.

by oftenwrong Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:56 pm

Absolution for our sins is fundamentally inherent in Christian beliefs.

Which puts the preceding postings somewhat at odds with the Established Church's teachings.

by snowyflake Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:14 pm

Imagine if our courts worked that way so that the man who murdered 20 kindergarten children at Sandy Hook could walk free simply by apologizing to the judge.

Says quite a lot about the character of God doesn't it? As long as you repent and worship him and only him, you get the prize of heaven and eternal life right alongside the little girl you killed......

by Greatest I am Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:05 pm

polyglide wrote:No one has to do anything they do not want to do.

I agree all humans are put in positions of choice all the time including the choice of good or evil and at times through many situations every human will be tested, not by God but by prevailing circumstances.

A person can fall down in the street and several others pass and not bother whilst another may pick the person up and help them etc; all concerned had a choice.

God knows that with the Devil about man will be tested to the limit and has indicated so by saying even the most evil of deeds will be forgiven if one accepts his offer of forgiveness.

God did not make man evil, man invented evilness by thinking he knows best.

As I have pointed out previously, you can manufacture a machine and give all that is necessary for it's maintenance that would ensure it's life expectancy and if followed would do so, however, forget to follow the instructions an BINGO.

Two things.
You make man a co-creator with God. That or Satan since he was the first in your myth to think he knew better than God. Good for Satan, bad for God who has to now share the creation with Satan.

Second. You had to ignore Theistic evolution to keep your un-intelligent view.

Take that on or we will all see that you have closed your eyes to retain a dogma that does not work.

All you did was put your fingers in your ears and droned on with a la la la la la because you could not face the truth.

Rather pathetic that for someone who thinks he can actually think. Not that I blame you. Your God is too ugly and evil to really look at. I see one who is to much of a coward to try to justify his God. God will not be pleased.

Regards
DL

by Greatest I am Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:10 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Absolution for our sins is fundamentally inherent in Christian beliefs.

So is the swollen headed ego inflating notion that a God would condemn man just to turn around and die for him at the cost of justice as Christians line up to profit from God justly??? punishing the good instead of the evil.

Now that is good justice. Not.

Regards
DL

by polyglide Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:17 pm

God knows the genuine from the not so genuine.

We humans are put in many different situations, with many choices available in many of them.

One may take the direct opposite action than another in any one of them.

God is aware of the trials and tribulations each of us have to contend with and the pressures put on us to do right from wrong etc;

Of course we do not understand many seeming unfair and unjust matters but God is aware, unlike us, of all that is involved in ones actions.

So no human be they a Judge or anything else is capable of judging the actions of another human being.

We take actions on matters to create what we think is the best for society as a whole but we are totally anaware of the circumstances in many cases only those on face value.

We are not, nor were not meant to be, capable of judging others.

by Greatest I am Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:51 pm

polyglide wrote:God knows the genuine from the not so genuine.

We humans are put in many different situations, with many choices available in many of them.

One may take the direct opposite action than another in any one of them.

God is aware of the trials and tribulations each of us have to contend with and the pressures put on us to do right from wrong etc;

Of course we do not understand many seeming unfair and unjust matters but God is aware, unlike us, of all that is involved in ones actions.

So no human be they a Judge or anything else is capable of judging the actions of another human being.

We take actions on matters to create what we think is the best for society as a whole but we are totally anaware of the circumstances in many cases only those on face value.

We are not, nor were not meant to be, capable of judging others.

So even if you were on a jury in a murder case where the accused had tons of evidence against him and if appeared that the crown had him dead to rights, you would not judge him guilty.

You are not much of a human being nor a good man if you would not.

What a waste of air.

For evil to grow all good men need do is nothing and you would do nothing.

Regards
DL

by snowyflake Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:32 pm

We are not, nor were not meant to be, capable of judging others

.

Yet you do judge others, poly. You judged for yourself that scientific theory is nonsense. That you know better than someone else who is more qualified, has more experience and actually works in any particular field of science. If the theory doesn't square with your faith you discount it. That is a judgement. Not a rational judgement but a judgement nonetheless.

by Tosh Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:39 pm

We are not, nor were not meant to be, capable of judging others

Some are more capable of others, bad news, you are not one of the some, were you dropped as a baby ?

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