To hate Jews is to hate God

by Greatest I am Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

To hate Jews is to hate God.

If you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, then you must believe that God planned for it and set the conditions even before the earth was formed. If as most believe, the Jews were the cause of the sacrifice, then one must believe that God put the notion and desire to kill Jesus in the Jewish hearts. Jews then were God’s tools in carrying out God’s plan. Jews then should be venerated just as Jesus is because Jesus and Jews were required and caused by God to participate in the sacrifice. They were all doing God’s will and not their own.

Jesus was a Jew and to hate Jews means that Jesus is also hated. The church has historically persecuted Jews and only repented for their actions in 2011 with the pope acknowledging that not all Jews should be hated. Just those directly involved in the sacrifice of Jesus. Ignoring of course that they were charged directly by God to be and do what God wanted.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/jews-not-responsible-for-death-of-christ-pope-says-49267/

Why then have Christians historically hated Jews, and by inference, hate the Jew part of God/Jesus the Jew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

The weird twist to this history is that the Christian right who hates Jews the most, is now the ones pushing for funding of the Jewish homeland to fulfill prophesy.

Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL

by Shirina Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:45 pm

Violence within a nation’s borders documented above appears not to be caused by religion.

That's why I said "most."

by Guest Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:49 pm

The term “most” indicates a documented preponderance.

Mexican Drug War
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Mexican Drug War is an ongoing armed conflict among rival drug cartels fighting each other for regional control and against the Mexican government forces. The government's principal goal has been to put down the drug-related violence that was raging among dueling drug cartels before any military intervention was made.^[33] Additionally, the Mexican government has claimed that their primary focus is on dismantling the powerful drug cartels, rather than on drug trafficking prevention, which is left to U.S. functionaries.^[34][35][36]

Although Mexican drug cartels, or drug trafficking organizations, have existed for several decades, they have become more powerful since the demise of Colombia's Cali and Medellín cartels in the 1990s. Mexican drug cartels now dominate the wholesale illicit drug market by controlling 90% of the cocaine that enters the United States.^[37][38] Arrests of key cartel leaders, particularly in the Tijuana and Gulf cartels, have led to increasing drug violence as cartels fight for control of the trafficking routes into the United States.^[39][40][41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War

Violence within a nation’s borders documented above appears not to be caused by religion.

The Telegraph

Venezuela murder rate soars
Venezuela, the most violent country in South America, recorded a new high of 21,692 murders this year along with a surge in kidnappings, prison riots and random shootings.

By Nick Allen
7:18PM GMT 28 Dec 2012

The number of victims was up by 12 per cent from last year when there were 19,336 deaths, the Venezuelan Violence Observatory said in its annual report.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/venezuela/9769897/Venezuela-murder-rate-soars.html

Violence within a nation’s borders documented above appears not to be caused by religion.

by snowyflake Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:37 pm

Mexico happens to be a very religious country. Funny that. The more religious a country, the higher the crime rate tends to be. I wonder why?

by Shirina Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:40 pm

The term “most” indicates a documented preponderance.

Poll centre attacks mar Iraq provincial vote

However, it faces significant security challenges, mainly from Sunni groups linked to al-Qaeda who launch attacks in a bid to undermine confidence in the Shia-led government.

LINK

Iraq violence: Mortar attack on mosque 'kills seven'

At least seven people have been killed in a mortar attack on a Sunni mosque in northern Iraq, police say. Dozens more were hurt in the strike as worshippers were leaving the building in Khales after Friday prayers. It comes a day after at least 27 people were killed in a bomb attack on a cafe in the Iraqi capital Baghdad. On Monday, a series of co-ordinated car bomb attacks across the country claimed at least 31 lives and injured more than 200 people.

Tensions are high between Iraq's Sunni and Shia, amid claims by the Sunni Muslim communities that they are being marginalised by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's Shia-led government. Sunni Islamist militants linked to al-Qaeda have attempted to destabilise the government by stepping up attacks, mainly on Shia but also Sunni targets this year.

LINK

Deaths in Egypt religious violence

Five Egyptians have been killed and eight more wounded in clashes between Christians and Muslims in a town near Cairo, according to security sources, in the latest sectarian violence in the country. Four Coptic Christians and one Muslim were killed when members of both communities started fighting and shooting at each other in El Khusus, north of the Egyptian capital, the sources said on Saturday. A Reuters reporter saw a burned-out Coptic day care centre and several damaged shops belonging to Christian traders. An apartment inhabited by Muslims was also burned. Residents said the violence broke out on Friday when a group of Christian children were drawing on a wall of a Muslim religious institute.

LINK

Innocent civilians pay price of violence, tit-for-tat accusations in Syria

But state news agency SANA quoted a local official in Daraa as pinning blame for the minaret's destruction on the Islamist rebel group Al-Nusra Front. "Al-Nusra terrorists in Daraa targeted the minaret," the unnamed official said, adding that they had obtained a fatwa, or religious edict, authorising attacks on places of worship "if necessary." Earlier this week, Al-Nusra's chief pledged allegiance to Al-Qaeda, a day after Al-Qaeda in Iraq announced its affiliation with the Syrian jihadist group, prompting concern among some rebel fighters and opposition members.

LINK

Religious 'radicals' driving Myanmar unrest

BANGKOK — Two years after a repressive junta ceded power, Myanmar is grappling with a surge in religious extremism that experts trace to anti-Muslim "provocateurs" including radical Buddhist monks. At least 43 people have been killed while mosques and Muslim homes have been destroyed over the past fortnight in central Myanmar, in a wave of violence that witnesses say seems to have been well organised. "It is clear that there are some agents provocateurs with radical anti-Muslim agendas at work in the country -- including influential Buddhist monks preaching intolerance and hatred of Muslims," said Jim Della-Giacoma, a Myanmar expert with the International Crisis Group think-tank. "Also, the systematic and methodical way in which Muslim neighbourhoods were razed to the ground is highly suggestive of some degree of advance planning by radical elements," he added.

LINK

African Children Denounced As "Witches" By Christian Pastors

EKET, Nigeria — The nine-year-old boy lay on a bloodstained hospital sheet crawling with ants, staring blindly at the wall. His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. It spilled as he struggled, burning away his face and eyes. The emaciated boy barely had strength left to whisper the name of the church that had denounced him – Mount Zion Lighthouse. A month later, he died.

Nwanaokwo Edet was one of an increasing number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members. Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" reviewed by the AP, and 13 churches were named in the case files. Some of the churches involved are renegade local branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

LINK

Do I have to keep going? For every one counter example you can cite, I can provide 10, 20 examples that prove my point. I didn't even touch on India, China, Iran, other parts of Africa, or even Ireland. Yep, I could keep going all the live long day. And tomorrow, there will be a plethora of new headlines to post, and so too with the day after, and the day after that.

by snowyflake Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:23 pm

Let's not forget the Boston Marathon bombing which clearly had a religious motive.

by oftenwrong Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:23 pm

Religious excuse.

In Russia, the word Chechen is interchangeable with Bandit.

But with God on their side.

by Guest Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:47 am

Drugs spur violence in Paraguay-Brazil no-man's-land

By Alexandre Peyrille (AFP) – 1 day ago

PEDRO JUAN CABALLERO, Paraguay — Paraguay, which elects a new president Sunday, may be small and unassuming, but it is the world number-two marijuana producer and a transit point for cocaine headed to Brazil and Europe, so organized crime casts a long shadow.

… the tonnes of illegal drugs flowing through the area have upped the stakes in terms of violence that often shadows ultra-lucrative organized crime, and here, in clashes between Brazilian and Paraguayan drug rings.

"The deaths you see are Mexican-style. There are decapitated bodies, arms severed, bodies burned alive," he said.

"We are in a process of a Mexicanization of the violence," Acevedo said referring to the brutal drug cartel linked violence in Mexico that has claimed a staggering more than 70,000 lives in just the past six years.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hY4XLEy36d1jRKMUXgt773yB6FHw?docId=CNG.bb132ae1a32da84c0b1f4c1982a31129.581http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hY4XLEy36d1jRKMUXgt773yB6FHw?docId=CNG.bb132ae1a32da84c0b1f4c1982a31129.581

Amnesty International
24 November 2008

Political violence in Nicaragua out of control
Violence between supporters of opposing political parties in Nicaragua is spiralling out of control, following this month's municipal elections.

Hundreds of supporters from the Sandinista National Liberation Front Party (Frente Sandinista de Liberación Nacional - FSLN) and the opposition Liberal Constitutional Party (Partido Liberal Constitucionalista - PLC) clashed in Managua on 18 November. They used sticks, stones, home-made mortars, guns and machetes. Many people were wounded but no official figures are available.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/political-violence-nicaragua-out-control-20081124

BBC US & Canada
30 July 2012 Last updated at 16:47 ET

Aurora shootings: James Holmes charged with 142 counts

Alleged Colorado cinema gunman James Holmes has been formally charged with 142 criminal counts in one of America's worst mass shootings.

He faces 24 counts of murder, two for each of the 12 people killed, and 116 counts of attempted murder, two each for the 58 injured.

For each person killed he faces a count of murder with deliberation and one of murder with extreme indifference.

If convicted, the 24-year-old could face the death penalty.

He opened fire at random in a crowded movie theatre showing Batman film The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora near Denver on 20 July, according to the authorities.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19049873

Sandy Hook Elementary School Shooting: Newtown, Connecticut Administrators, Students Among Victims, Reports Say
Posted: 12/14/2012 10:28 am EST | Updated: 12/16/2012 10:05 am EST

Authorities in Connecticut responded to a mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown Friday morning, the local NBC station reports.

Police reported 27 deaths, including 20 children, six adults and the shooter, according to the Associated Press.

Following hours of uncertainty during which many media outlets reported the shooter's identity as Ryan Lanza, an official identified the suspected gunman as Adam Lanza, Ryan's 20 year old brother, according to the Associated Press. Ryan Lanza, 24, is being questioned by police in New Jersey.

Reports say that the gunman carried four weapons, and wore black clothing as well as a bullet proof vest. He died on the scene.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/sandy-hook-elementary-school-shooting_n_2300831.html

So far, in order of presentation hereon:

Columbia: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.
Mexico: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.
Venezuela: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.
Iraq: Violence for reasons associated with religion.
Egypt: Violence for reasons associated with religion.
Syria: Violence for reasons associated with religion.
Myanmar: Violence for reasons associated with religion.
Nigeria: Violence for reasons associated with religion.
United States of America, Massachusetts: Violence for reasons associated with religion.
Paraguay: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.
Brazil: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.
Nicaragua: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.
United States of America, Colorado: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.
United States of America, Connecticut: Violence for reasons not associated with religion.

Out of fourteen presentations hereon of in-country/nation violence, six are violence for reasons associated with religion and eight are violence for reasons not associated with religion.

Documentation provided so far on this thread strongly suggests that 21st century in-country/nation violence occurs for reasons (1) associated with religion, and (2) reasons not associated with religion.

Based on documentation provided so far, neither in-country/nation violence associated with religion nor in-country/nation violence not associated with religion can be identified as the preponderate type of in-country/nation violence.

The term “most” indicates a documented preponderance; accordingly, since documentation provided hereon establishes neither in-country/nation violence associated with religion nor in-country/nation violence not associated with eligion as preponderate, neither type of in-country/nation violence can be properly associated with the term “most.”

by snowyflake Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:00 am

Religious violence

1. Burma
2. India
3. Egypt
4. Nigeria
5. Uganda
6. Somalia
7. Sudan
8. Saudi Arabia
9. Afghanistan
10. Iraq
11. Ireland

Almost everywhere you look on the news there is religious violence. If religion is meant to be peaceful, why is there so much violence? It's not the atheists causing the trouble. It's the differing religious factions fighting each other.

by Guest Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:39 am

Violence not associated with religion:

Bolivia
Peru
Uruguay
El Salvador
Guatemala
Jamaica
Ecuador
Costa Rica
Hong Kong
Sri Lanka
Thailand

Documented and undocumented in-country/nation violence items, Monday 22 April 2013, 16:49, through Tuesday 23 April 2013, 07:39: 36
Documented and undocumented in-country/nation violence items associated with religion: 17
Documented and undocumented in-country/nation violence items not associated with religion: 19

Violence associated with religion permeates the world. Violence not associated with religion permeates the world. In the words of my long time ago DJ mentor, “I’ve done my do, and now I’m through.”

by polyglide Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:15 pm

Then why do you not consider the majority of wars and conflicts that have nothing to do with religion.

The wrong type of person in the wrong position can very easily use religion as a basis for anything, it does not mean they actually either believe or practice the religion.

Just look at the perverts coming out of the woodwork who have used religion for their vile practices etc;

However, in the long run it matters not who causes the conflicts it is how to stop them, for whatever reason they are started.

by Shirina Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:46 pm

Out of fourteen presentations hereon of in-country/nation violence, six are violence for reasons associated with religion and eight are violence for reasons not associated with religion.

I only stopped at six ... like I said, there are many, MANY more.

by Shirina Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:49 pm

Then why do you not consider the majority of wars and conflicts that have nothing to do with religion.

Because it's not really about "war."

Children being slaughtered due to witchcraft, the constant terror bombings in Pakistan, Afghanistan and other places, neighborhoods of particular religious factions being razed to the ground by opposing religious factions, even gays being denied the right to marry etc. have nothing to do with warfare in the traditional sense.

by Guest Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:05 pm

RockOnBrother, Tuesday, 23 April 2013, 07:39

Out of fourteen presentations hereon of in-country/nation violence, six are violence for reasons associated with religion and eight are violence for reasons not associated with religion.

Shirina wrote:
I only stopped at six ... like I said, there are many, MANY more.

The underlined text is a bit inaccurate. You stopped at five countries/nations. As for any further response…

RockOnBrother, Tuesday, 23 April 2013, 07:39

In the words of my long time ago DJ mentor, “I’ve done my do, and now I’m through.”

by snowyflake Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:03 pm

Religion is the number one reason for conflict now and historically. Citing individual criminal acts by criminals is not the same as war.

Did anyone else notice that the countries suffering the largest crime rates due to the drug trade are also highly Catholic Christian nations. I wonder why?

Even the mafia are religious.

by Shirina Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:10 pm

The underlined text is a bit inaccurate. You stopped at five countries/nations. As for any further response…

Oh, well, if we're going that route, you cheated by counting the United States twice. Smile

by Guest Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:02 pm

Shirina wrote:
Oh, well, if we're going that route, you cheated by counting the United States twice.

I counted two sovereign states, Colorado and Connecticut. I doubt if in-nation sovereignty exists in Iraq.

However, if you want to go incident by incident, all I would need to do is pull up crime reports from Chi-town and Kill-adelphia and have a good ol’ time.

by Shirina Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:26 pm

However, if you want to go incident by incident, all I would need to do is pull up crime reports from Chi-town and Kill-adelphia and have a good ol’ time.

Except I'm not counting random street crime. A cashier at a convenience store getting popped by a jittery robber out for a free carton of Marlboros isn't the kind of violence either Snowy or I are talking about.

There has to be an ideology involved, usually political or religious - and sometimes both.

by Guest Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:14 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
However, if you want to go incident by incident, all I would need to do is pull up crime reports from Chi-town and Kill-adelphia and have a good ol’ time.

Shirina wrote:
Except I'm not counting random street crime. A cashier at a convenience store getting popped by a jittery robber out for a free carton of Marlboros isn't the kind of violence… I [am] talking about.

CHICAGO SUN-TIMES

15-year-old boy found shot to death blocks from President Obama’s home
BY BRIAN SLODYSKO Staff Reporter April 23, 2013 5:58AM
Updated: April 23, 2013 4:42PM

Timika Rutledge’s Monday night unfolded as a mother’s worst nightmare. When her youngest son was not waiting at a Walgreens at the corner of 51st and Cottage Grove as planned, annoyance shifted to apprehension — and eventually to grief, as police cars streamed into the area.

“I had this sinking gut feeling something wasn’t right,” said Rutledge, 42, as tears welled in her eyes. “I saw a police officer. He said a little kid got shot. Somehow, I knew it was my baby. I went back there. I saw my baby on the ground in the grass. I saw his gym shoes and his jacket.”

She couldn’t bring herself to go any closer.

Her son, 15-year-old Cornelius German, was lying dead nearby — shot only four blocks from President Barack Obama’s home in the 5000 block of South Greenwood.

His mother said she was told her son’s last words were, “Call my mama.”

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/19664470-418/15-year-old-boy-found-shot-to-death-blocks-from-president-obamas-home.html

Timika Rutledge most likely sees things a bit differently.

by Guest Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:06 am

“You can’t see the forest for the trees.”

That wise adage applies to several persons who post hereon. For several weeks, maybe a month or a little more, I’ve included a hint within my posts that could be used by those who mistakenly believe that they stand in opposition to me to support their position. More on that in a moment.

Here is my position: Mass murder is immoral. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to “get” that. Also, because immorality is inexcusable, period, any reason/explanation given for mass murder is an excuse for the inexcusable. Throughout history, mass murderers have committed their immoral acts for a Variety of invalid reasons, many of which are associated with religion. Canaanites, Philistines, Olmecs, Toltecs, Mayans, and Aztecs sacrificed children to gods, often on alters, and in mezzo-America, alters atop magnificent pyramids where young virgin girls were thrown alive into fires after probably being de-virgin-ized by priests.

No less heinous are mass murders perpetrated against innocent souls because they are of a particular faith. Jews were exterminated because they were Jews during the 1934-1945 de-Jew-ification of Europe, wherein two thirds of nine million Jews, six million, were eradicated from this earth by Europeans who didn’t give a damn about them because, after all, they were only… Jews.

The forest: The factual statements are “Joseph Stalin was an anti-religious atheist” and “Pol Pot was an anti-religious atheist.” The term “anti-religious atheist” consists of a noun, “atheist”, and a modifier, “anti-religious”; it is the modifier, “anti-religious”, that fueled the anti-religious mass murders committed by anti-religious atheist mass murderers Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot.

I believe that atheism is about the most illogical thing I’ve ever heard, but non-anti-religious atheists are endowed by their Creator with the unalienable right to be atheists, and this unalienable right is guaranteed unto them by the United States Constitution whenever they happen to be within the jurisdiction of the United States government. As such, if ever the need arises, I stand ready to take up arms and throw my old-a**ed self out on the front lines protecting the unalienable human rights of those with whom I vehemently disagree to be whatever they damned well want to be. I speak as I have acted, as one who has sacrificed for what is right more than once. I don’t know how much good an old a**ed man with a double barreled twelve gauge shotgun can do, but I’ll give ‘er all I got if it comes down to it.

Destroying innocent people because of anything is immoral. Anti-religious atheists are as immoral as anti-Jewish “Christian” inquisitors. “If there’s a hell below, they’re all gonna go”, with apologies to Curtis Mayfield for adulterating his words. Maybe anti-religious atheists and anti-Jewish “Christian” inquisitor beasts can learn to weep and gnash teeth together.

by snowyflake Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:55 am

I believe that atheism is about the most illogical thing I’ve ever heard,

Atheism is a perfectly reasonable conclusion based on the evidence. We don't see, hear, taste, touch or smell God, Jesus, his angels, Satan, demons or devils. What rational thinking person would then conclude that therefore he must exist? You are quite sure that the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Harry Potter, Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, Ganesh, leprachauns, fairies etc. do not exist because you have no evidence for their existence but somehow your rationale is completely discarded when it comes to the Abrahamic god who is no more than a glorified and exalted Tooth Fairy.

Just because billions of people believe in a thing does not make it true or real.

by Guest Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:14 am

snowyflake wrote:
Atheism is a perfectly reasonable conclusion based on the evidence.

And yet, even as the evidence screams “DESIGN!”, everywhere, every when, including in the first tiniest fraction of a fraction of a Nano-second as all that is, was, and ever will be began to separate out and organize, and at every level, you either deny designer while accepting design, an incredibly illogical decision, or deny design itself, an even more incredibly illogical decision.

Attempting to encase illogical within logical is, in my view, the height of illogicity (ought to be a word). But then, who am I but some dumb-**s Texan who ought not to be allowed to think, lest he discover the secret that atheism doesn’t make sense?

by Tosh Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:39 am

it is the modifier, “anti-religious”, that fueled the anti-religious mass murders committed by anti-religious atheist mass murderers Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot.

Texas,

I am asking you yet again to provide evidence that mass murders took place fueled by anti-religious sentiments, in plain English show me the money, show me mass murders of religious people for being religious.

I am not denying Stalin was anti-religious and I am not denying he murdered 20 million people, but there is no evidence to support your claim that all of these died because of their religious beliefs.

The purges and famine were fueled by many things, and religion was the least of them, however I accept Stalin did kill some people for their religion but the closest estimate I can get is 20,000, which is 0.1%, hardly a core tenet of Marxism.

by Tosh Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:52 am

And yet, even as the evidence screams “DESIGN!”, everywhere, every when, including in the first tiniest fraction of a fraction of a Nano-second as all that is, was, and ever will be began to separate out and organize, and at every level, you either deny designer while accepting design, an incredibly illogical decision, or deny design itself, an even more incredibly illogical decision.

Texas,

What I find illogical is your use of the term " evidence " and the design conclusion you draw from this evidence, evidence must be tested in order to prove your conclusion, and since you are claiming everything is evidence of design then there is nothing to test it against. You can prove me wrong by giving me an example of evidence against design, something falsifiable will do, the exception tests the rule.

This thinking mechanism is even more bizarre when you are shown tested evidence that supports the falsifiable conclusion of common ancestry and you reject it on the grounds of empiricism.

So what empirical tests scream design ?

You do not understand the concept of logic, it is based on universal reasoning, you want to pick and choose when you apply reason, and that is not logical its called cognitive bias.

by Tosh Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:04 pm

So then we take your theory of design with no testable evidence and we move onto your other conclusion, the designer is Yahweh.

Now what empirical evidence do you have to support this conclusion ?

Well it seems to consist of Genesis 1;1 which basically says the universe had a beginning, to use your parlance " its just words on paper " as against " bones in dirt ".

So now you have opened up to your beliefs, we can see how easy it is to demonstrate the inconsistent way you think things through, and that is not how a scholar thinks.

by Tosh Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:21 pm

If the evidence for design is LIFE, this infers the universe is designed for life, and yet most of the conditions in the universe are deadly to all life, so how does one view this evidence ?

The exception tests the rule, the rule is the universe has little life ( ergo not designed) and the rare existence of life proves this rule.

Now, the only way to get round this is to claim that the exception is the rule, and Yahweh created the universe just for us, which is just putting us back in the bronze age, we are the center of the universe, its all about us.

Now what empirical evidence do we have to support the theory that the universe was created just for us ?

Yep, you got it, " words on paper ", there is nothing scholarly about believing the Bible is true because it says it is true.

by Shirina Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:52 pm

And yet, even as the evidence screams “DESIGN!”, everywhere, every when, including in the first tiniest fraction of a fraction of a Nano-second as all that is, was, and ever will be began to separate out and organize, and at every level, you either deny designer while accepting design, an incredibly illogical decision, or deny design itself, an even more incredibly illogical decision.

Yes, this goes back to what I said awhile ago about a little story told by Christopher Hitchens.

Hitchens asked his 8 year-old daughter, "Why do you think this rock has rough edges?"

And the girl replied enthusiastically, "So animals can scratch themselves on it!"

The moral of the story is that we humans tend to think that, just because something in nature seems perfectly suited for a particular purpose, it must have been designed for that purpose. Except that's not really true, is it. After all, I doubt anyone would claim that trees were designed to make rifle butts so we could wage war on each other. We see design because we want to and because it reinforces a preconceived religious paradigm. Yet I have made mention of several fairly serious flaws in the human body, Tosh had made mention of how hostile the universe is to life - so much so that even with 8 planets, Pluto, and hundreds of moons, not so much as a microbe has been found anywhere beyond earth. Even our own planet is quite hostile to the human condition with all of its natural disasters, bacteria, viruses, and germs. I dare say, did God design those things as well so that they may kill us in the billions? Quite the murderous God then. Was my body designed to contract neuropathy so my life could effectively end at age 30? What kind of God would do that?

If one is to even consider that everything was designed, one must also consider the BAD aspects of design and ask why a perfect, all-powerful designer would deign to create such designs. I see no love from a designer who would create the HIV virus and cripple an entire continent. I see no love from a designer who would create the Black Death and wipe out 2/3rds of the European population. I see no love from a designer that causes children to be born with autism, deformities, cancer, and other diseases.

The most logical belief here is that there was no design - things simply are as they are, and that brings to me a degree of peace in my own life. As someone who suffers day after day of chronic pain, knowing there is no "designer" means there is no one to blame, no one to shake my fist at, no one with whom to be angry. It means there is no one to beseach, no one to pray to, which in turn means there is no reason to scream out "why?!" when the designer refuses to miraculously heal my condition. Knowing there is no "design" allows me to forgo much of the anger a person in my position would feel, as well as the self-doubt and the betrayal.

No thanks. I would not want to live my life this way and believe in such an entity.

by Tosh Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:26 pm

God designs dinosaurs and then designs a comet to exterminate them, yeah...yeah...I know God works in mysterious ways.

by oftenwrong Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:17 pm

QUOTE: "....we humans tend to think that, just because something in nature seems perfectly suited for a particular purpose, it must have been designed for that purpose...."

Quite so. Our self-satisfaction extends also to anthropomorphic assumptions that animals "work" the same way as us, though not of course being so clever as we are.

A contrary view is that the singular purpose of Humans is to replicate ourselves. That's all. Just that.

by Tosh Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:58 pm

Quite so. Our self-satisfaction extends also to anthropomorphic assumptions that animals "work" the same way as us, though not of course being so clever as we are.

Since humans are instructed by the same genetic code as animals then it is us that work the same way as them.

A contrary view is that the singular purpose of Humans is to replicate ourselves. That's all. Just that.

Never heard of that one, who says our only purpose is to reproduce ?

by snowyflake Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:47 pm

And yet, even as the evidence screams “DESIGN!”, everywhere, every when, including in the first tiniest fraction of a fraction of a Nano-second as all that is, was, and ever will be began to separate out and organize, and at every level, you either deny designer while accepting design, an incredibly illogical decision, or deny design itself, an even more incredibly illogical decision.

It is humans who decided that design implied a designer. It doesn't. Humans see patterns and from that they decided therefore there must be a designer. Why? The natural forces of physics create design right down to the molecular and atomic level. No magic needed. No designer needed.

I heard a report today that Britain has the fastest reducing crime rate in Western Europe. We have far less homicides and violent crime now than we did 10 years ago. This flies in the face of everything polyglide asserts about the world, the end times and people not doing what God intended. In fact, we are doing exactly what we should be doing and thankfully it is not down to religion or belief in ridiculous notions like invisible sentient omnipotent beings out of a Marvel comics.

The world and it's people are mostly beautiful. Mostly. There are a few nutters out there who spoil it but mostly humans are pretty good.

by oftenwrong Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:27 pm

Let's hear it for us!

by Guest Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:09 am

by Guest Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:34 am

I am a fundamentalist Christian. I know YHVH Elohim. I know Y’shua bar Yosef, Y’shua Moshiach, in Anglicized Greek and English, Jesus son of Joseph, Jesus Christ. The foundation, the fundamental, of Christianity is willingly following Y’shua’s teachings, including the teachings on the mountain found in Matthew 5-7. I do so as best I can; thus, I say what I say not as a “religionist”, I say what I say as a disciple of Y’shua whom I love and trust. I am not particularly “religious”; Y’shua, who helped me know truth, has freed me from religion.

I do not desecrate and defecate upon funerals of courageous women and men who served my country by parading around like a damned idiot with a horde of other despicable defecators carrying signs and shouting obscenities at mourners. These sorry pieces of leftover human DNA that pollute my country’s soil and atmosphere by their presence thereon and therein claim to be “fundamentalist Christians”; by doing so, they desecrate Y’shua Moshiach, in Anglicized Greek, Jesus Christ, from whose Anglicized title, “Christ”, the identifying term “Christian” is derived, and they defecate upon Y’shua’s teachings, as Y’shua has never taught anyone to desecrate and defecate upon those who mourn women and men who have served their country.

The fundamentals of Christianity are the teachings of Y’shua Moshiach, of Jesus Christ. A fundamentalist Christian does her/his best to willingly follow the teachings of Y’shua Moshiach, of Jesus Christ the teachings of Y’shua Moshiach, of Jesus Christ. Y’shua, Jesus, teaches, “Treat others as you would have others treat you in all things whatsoever, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

I suspect that certain Muslims personally known to me feel the same way about leftover pieces of human DNA that destroy innocent persons’ lives in the name of “islam”, and that join me in categorizing these idiots as “muslim” equivalents of the kkk. I will not place upon Cutting Edge any photos of kkk rallies, but anyone who wishes may go to Google images and find Bible carrying kkk standing in front of crosses while claiming that they act in Jesus’ name.

by Guest Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:39 am

I have lived on this planet, in this universe, my entire cognizant life, and I expect to do so for the remainder of my life. Throughout my cognizant lifetime on this planet in this universe, in one hundred percent of the cases I have observed, organization has been the result of design; in fact, in one hundred percent of the cases I have observed, design has preceded organization.

Humans have not “decided” that design implies a designer; design itself screams “DESIGNER!” No implication or inference necessary. Moreover, if “[the] natural forces of physics create design right down to the molecular and atomic level”, how did “[the] natural forces of physics create design” prior to the natural forces of physics, the strong force, the weak force, gravity, and electromagnetism, create the design that organized the four natural forces of physics into existence in the first tiniest fraction of a fraction of a Nano-second of existence prior to the four natural forces of physics’ existence?

Of course, one can ignore the virtual plethora of data that screams “BIG BANG IS TRUTYH!” If one chooses to do so, pray tell, what logical alternative does one present as to the origin of everything now that Big Bang’s illogical predecessor has been blown out of the water?

by Guest Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:41 am

Shirina wrote:
… that brings to me a degree of peace in my own life. As someone who suffers day after day of chronic pain, knowing there is no "designer" means there is no one to blame, no one to shake my fist at, no one with whom to be angry. It means there is no one to beseach, no one to pray to, which in turn means there is no reason to scream out "why?!" when the designer refuses to miraculously heal my condition. Knowing there is no "design" allows me to forgo much of the anger a person in my position would feel, as well as the self-doubt and the betrayal.

As Johnny Carson said to Ed McMahon, “No, banana-breath, this is NOT a complete list.” I chose “banana” because “I like to eat, eat-eat-eat, I like to eat, apples and bananas.”

In 1961, my dog was stolen from my backyard one night. I mourned for years. During the first few months, I toured the neighborhood on my bike looking for him, and I regularly entreated my parents to drive me around for the same reason. To take my mind off of the pain, I read Huckleberry Finn cover to cover for the first time. When, in 1964, one of my younger brothers got a dog, also a Sheltie, I taught this outdoor dog to function indoors so that I could bring him inside each night. When I went away to college, part of each long distance call home included an inquiry to make sure my brother’s dog, OUR dog, my dog, was Safe, and that my parents and siblings were letting him in each night, no matter what, to ensure his safety. One night, when I was home for the summer, our dog took advantage of an open gate and took off to see the world. Since I was now old enough to drive myself around, I looked for him throughout about a two mile radius all that day, all that night, and into the next afternoon, when, as I was turning a corner, I saw his tail disappear around another corner, made a U-turn, caught up to him at a corner, looking lost, called his name, watched him leap into the car and try to lick my face off, drove straight home, opened the driver side door to get out, watched him leap over me, run to the front door, turn and wait in anticipation for me to catch up and open it, and, upon the door’s opening, watched our dog bolt into the house, find my younger brother, and jump up almost into his arms. This dog lived fourteen years and died in the arms of my younger brother.
In 1967, a college classmate, an older man, mid-twenties, one of the finest men I’ve known, befriended me, honoring me by doing so. In January 1969, in a second-story room at a West Coast university, my friend was murdered. One other man was murdered, and two men escaped by jumping out of the window and fleeing for their lives, during the same mini-mass-murder/attempted murder. The person that, in my opinion, ordered these murders/assassinations has never been charged, lives a peaceful retired life today, and has been publicly rewarded by men/women in several ways. My pain remains as intense today as it was forty-four years three months ago.
In March 1972, my mother called long distance and said, “Billy was murdered.” Billy was my older cousin, a close cousin. One afternoon, as he was pulling away from a house, a man stepped out onto the porch of that house, aimed a high-powered rifle, and pulled the trigger. The round shattered the back window, entered the back of Billy’s skull, and blew his brains out. The investigating officers found his brain matter scattered across the steering wheel, the dashboard, and the inside of the front windscreen. My pain remains as intense today as it was forty-one years one month ago.
In May 1989, my friend, a ethnic-minority Pakistani, a devout Muslim who quietly taught me from the Qur’an that all Muslims are called upon to treat “People of the Law”, Jews, and “People of the Book”, Christians, and by implication and inference all men of decency gender inclusive, with dignity, honor respect, and deference, bade me farewell for the last time. Subsequently, to the best of my knowledge, he was apprehended, “show-trialed”, convicted, and executed by Pakistani officials in Pakistan for daring to teach these things to me and others. He had returned to Pakistan, knowing the personal risk, to complete paperwork to rescue his wife and children from that intolerant land and culture and bring them back with him to the United States. He had begun the process of becoming a naturalized US citizen, and intended to ensure these blessing of liberty to his wife and children. My pain remains as intense today as it was twenty-four years eleven months ago. I mourn for his family daily. I mourn for him daily. See more details here: RockOnBrother, Saturday, 30 March 2013, 13:25

The last three are the murders. I’ve mentioned not the other pains; I’ve mentioned not the acute and chronic personal physical traumas. My preceding message on this thread, posted here…

RockOnBrother, Wednesday 24 April 2013, 02:34

… serves as testimony of who I am today. Vaya con Dios.

by snowyflake Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:06 am

Humans have not “decided” that design implies a designer; design itself screams “DESIGNER!” No implication or inference necessary. Moreover, if “[the] natural forces of physics create design right down to the molecular and atomic level”, how did “[the] natural forces of physics create design” prior to the natural forces of physics, the strong force, the weak force, gravity, and electromagnetism, create the design that organized the four natural forces of physics into existence in the first tiniest fraction of a fraction of a Nano-second of existence prior to the four natural forces of physics’ existence?

Of course humans decided it. Before science humans were seeking explanations and could not come up with anything better than supernatural forces which they called God/god/gods. Science is opening the door to our ignorance and hubris. It is allowing knowledge to tell us that magic is not necessary in a universe where everything that can happen does happen.

Virgins do not give birth, the dead do not come back to life and no matter how much we want it to, water cannot be turned instantaneously into wine. But molecules are held together by forces, the universe is held together by forces. None of these forces are sentient.

Patterns exist because they are the most efficient forms. Doesn't imply a designer.

by Guest Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:24 am

When I need a little inspiration to keep on keepin’ on…

There was a young girl whose heart was a frown
Cause she was crippled for life
And she couldn’t speak a sound
And she wished and prayed she could stop living
So she decided to die
She drew her wheelchair to the edge of the shore
And to her legs she smiled
“You won’t hurt me no more”
But then a sight shed never seen
Made her jump and say
“Look a golden winged ship is passing my way”
And it really didn’t have to stop
It just kept on going

And so castles made of sand slips into the sea, eventually.

Castles Made Of Sand, Jimi Hendrix

Castles Made of Sand - Jimi Hendrix
http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/_MNtzBlZWHc?ytsession=XSI3Zcm85OJEKNoCFa51E5oFeTZOdSREA-6iFTsWQuRh8meeuTKlOIU7a4Iznf-pZ2bkdvhjBUfiWsnknPaqAdnKHVQaam66RwugFcSPuYaOckYSqxSjNaf1GVtjtCXxZs3lBt9GBgr7H-N5cNGVvw

by Tosh Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:11 am

The fundamentals of Christianity are the teachings of Y’shua Moshiach, of Jesus Christ. A fundamentalist Christian does her/his best to willingly follow the teachings of Y’shua Moshiach, of Jesus Christ the teachings of Y’shua Moshiach, of Jesus Christ. Y’shua, Jesus, teaches, “Treat others as you would have others treat you in all things whatsoever, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”

Texas,

There are 30 or 40,000 different interpretations of the fundamentals of Christianity, yours is only true to you, others KNOW it differently. Not only are you claiming Christianity to be the one and only true faith, you are now claiming your literal version is the one and only true interpretation of Scripture.
The problem of attaching yourself to absolute dogma from the ignorant bronze age, is you spend all your waking hours contorting and distorting both science and theology to make them compatible.

What I find dishonest is you know you have to do this in order to make sense of Scripture, and that is what baffles me, how can faith persuade you to be unreasonable in your thinking processes. You must know that Jesus had very limited scientific knowledge and just because Jesus believed in a literal Adam and Eve doesn't make it true.

As I said previously at best your thinking is inconsistent and at worst it is simply dishonest, and Jesus did not preach either. If all Christianity means is kindness then most humans are kind, and most humans are Christians even if they have never heard of Jesus.

by Tosh Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:25 am

Humans have not “decided” that design implies a designer; design itself screams “DESIGNER!” No implication or inference necessary.

Again this is you trying to play with words to escape the obvious, you have deduced from your observations that the concept of human design applies to the whole of nature. The evidence implies or infers design in your opinion and your opinion is not an empirical fact, it is not empirical in any sense of the word. You are looking at the world and it screams it is flat.

Order and complexity do not have to be designed, and we have many examples of both occurring randomly in nature, you oppose common ancestry because it is a natural explanation for order and complexity, the appearance of design is enough for you to reject the evidence of common ancestry. This screams DELUSION.

by Tosh Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:56 pm

I have lived on this planet, in this universe, my entire cognizant life, and I expect to do so for the remainder of my life. Throughout my cognizant lifetime on this planet in this universe, in one hundred percent of the cases I have observed, organization has been the result of design; in fact, in one hundred percent of the cases I have observed, design has preceded organization.

Does it never snow in Texas, next time it does have a close look at a snowflake, its well organized.

by Guest Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:18 pm

No “J” in 1611 King James Version?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e2FE4atcEA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpnDLfmRcws
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WC_qIG94Ag

More.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0RiHp_GSYs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSVYxFwA3fg&feature=endscreen&NR=1

I’ve not posted these videos because I agree with the “authors”; I’ve posted this because the content motivates me to think beyond what I “know.”

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