To hate Jews is to hate God

by Greatest I am Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

To hate Jews is to hate God.

If you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, then you must believe that God planned for it and set the conditions even before the earth was formed. If as most believe, the Jews were the cause of the sacrifice, then one must believe that God put the notion and desire to kill Jesus in the Jewish hearts. Jews then were God’s tools in carrying out God’s plan. Jews then should be venerated just as Jesus is because Jesus and Jews were required and caused by God to participate in the sacrifice. They were all doing God’s will and not their own.

Jesus was a Jew and to hate Jews means that Jesus is also hated. The church has historically persecuted Jews and only repented for their actions in 2011 with the pope acknowledging that not all Jews should be hated. Just those directly involved in the sacrifice of Jesus. Ignoring of course that they were charged directly by God to be and do what God wanted.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/jews-not-responsible-for-death-of-christ-pope-says-49267/

Why then have Christians historically hated Jews, and by inference, hate the Jew part of God/Jesus the Jew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

The weird twist to this history is that the Christian right who hates Jews the most, is now the ones pushing for funding of the Jewish homeland to fulfill prophesy.

Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL

by snowyflake Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:55 pm

Truth requires evidence. Provide evidence that supports your claims otherwise it's just assumption. You assume a lot.

by Guest Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:43 pm

by snowyflake Wed May 01, 2013 5:49 am

Truth requires nothing. Truth is truth. At b’r’shythe, truth is-was-will be.

How very convenient. Claims can be made without any verification whatsoever. What's the point of discussing it if you can make claims without having to prove it or provide evidence.

by Tosh Wed May 01, 2013 9:50 am

Truth requires nothing. Truth is truth. At b’r’shythe, truth is-was-will be.

The Bible is true because it says it is true, empirical scholarship of the highest order in the mind of a fundamentalist.

by Guest Wed May 01, 2013 12:29 pm

Truth requires nothing. Truth is truth. At b’r’shythe, truth is-was-will be.

Ha adama, man gender inclusive (“male and female created he them”), created in the sixth yôm (see Genesis 1:26-31), neither owns truth nor understands truth in its entirety. When one attempts to “limit” truth to that which one has come to understand, one denies to oneself truth that one has yet to understand and truth that one can never understand.

I ceased attempting to so limit truth about four years ago, in so doing freeing myself from my own hubris, my own self-arrogance.

At b’r’shythe, as all that is, was, and will be becomes, truth becomes, dependent upon neither convenience, man’s awareness thereof, nor man’s ability to provide evidence or proof thereof.

At fourteen years of age, I chose to accept and personally deal with my ignorance of all that I do not know. I no longer allowed myself to use “God” as a crutch; rather, I began to demand internal honesty of myself. Decades of practicing self-honesty in pursuance of truth led, about four years ago, to cessation of all attempts to encompass truth within my own logic.

Any person that concludes that this is a matter of convenience and chooses to express her/his conclusion hereon is free to do so, as freedom of thought and freedom of expression are Creator-endowed unalienable human rights guaranteed unto all persons in my country. Moreover, if any person’s rights to so conclude and to so express her/his conclusion are challenged, I will rise to defend that person’s rights in any way that I can.

by oftenwrong Wed May 01, 2013 12:45 pm

un·alien·able
adjective \ˌən-ˈāl-yə-nə-bəl, -ˈā-lē-ə-\

Definition of UNALIENABLE
: inalienable

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/unalienable

by Guest Wed May 01, 2013 12:49 pm

by Tosh Wed May 01, 2013 12:52 pm

truth becomes, dependent upon neither...nor man’s ability to provide evidence or proof thereof.

Yep, the Bible is true because it says it is true, no wonder you try and disguise this nonsense with verbosity and flatulence.

Here is a man who claims precision and demands empiricism, stating truth is not dependent on evidence or proof.

Seriously you just couldn't make this tripe up, its just irrationality plain and simple.

How do you know the Bible is true, simple really, it says it is true......welcome to the bronze age.

by Guest Wed May 01, 2013 12:56 pm

Upon ascertainment by me that a request is honest, I will respond to any request of me for evidence of design. Each response will begin with an exposition of Genesis 1:1, an exposition of Big Bang, and a “side-by-side” comparison of Genesis 1:1’s “who-what-when-where” and Big Bang’s “who-what-when-where.”

by Tosh Wed May 01, 2013 1:01 pm

The Bible is true because there is a similarity in the first line to a rather vague description of the big bang.

That really makes sense, especially since everything screams design, and I mean everything, all those lovely dead planets with lovely impact craters, all designed to facilitate human life.

Get real, its a child's view of the universe.

by Tosh Wed May 01, 2013 1:09 pm

You better believe it, there is no dispute amongst any monotheist and there is no variation of monotheism that does not promise an afterlife, on that significant point there is unanimity.

by Guest Wed May 01, 2013 2:38 pm

snowyflake wrote:
YHWH=Elohim=Jehovah=Allah=God=Thor=Zeus=EAsterBunny=SantaClaus=HarryPotter=X=any fictional character in a story book.

Allah and Elohim have identical meaning, immeasurable, incomprehensible causative power by which all that is, was, and will be is.

YHWH is a mis-transliteration. Jehovah, found in neither Hebrew nor Greek Bibles, “God” as you choose to use the term, Thor, Zeus, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Harry Potter, and X all lack immeasurable, incomprehensible causative power by which all that is, was, and will be is.

by oftenwrong Wed May 01, 2013 5:06 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JHVH

by snowyflake Wed May 01, 2013 6:36 pm

b’r’shythe

This is not a word.

YHWH, a mis-transliteration, Jehovah, found in neither Hebrew nor Greek Bibles, “God” as you choose to use the term, Thor, Zeus, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Harry Potter, and X all lack immeasurable, incomprehensible causative power by which all that is, was, and will be is.

Perhaps all in group 2 are the same to you; if so, so be it

I didn't put these characters in separate groups. If you look at the equation they are all equal to each other. They are all fictional characters in stories. None of them are real.

There is no evidence to support these extraordinary claims that immeasurable, incomprehensible power is Godallahyhwhjehovahelohim or that GAYJE is a sentient being that cares about each individual Christian in the world.

I accept that you believe he is real. That doesn't mean he is. The mind can perform somersaults when it wants to protect it's belief system. If you were to say that he is real to you and that is based on your own faith, most of us would accept that. What I don't accept is that your assertion that he is real is scientifically evidenced, or that the hebrew language somehow legitimises your assumption that GAYJE is real.

There may be many things in our universe that we aren't aware of or don't have any evidence for. That doesn't mean we can claim they exist just because they might be there. When God decides to reveal himself in an open and honest manner, I would be the first to admit I was wrong but, man, he would face some pretty heavy grilling on my part for his absence over the centuries and for allowing some pretty horrific and horrendous activity to be perpetrated in his name.

by snowyflake Wed May 01, 2013 6:55 pm

At fourteen years of age, I chose to accept and personally deal with my ignorance of all that I do not know. I no longer allowed myself to use “God” as a crutch; rather, I began to demand internal honesty of myself. Decades of practicing self-honesty in pursuance of truth led, about four years ago, to cessation of all attempts to encompass truth within my own logic

There is a difference between self-honesty and self-delusion. Have you ever asked yourself honestly if there is any possibility that you could be wrong? Are you truly honest with yourself when you look at evidence or do you spend your time searching for things that support your belief?

That is not the search for truth. The search for truth begins by looking at the evidence without bias. Let the evidence lead you to truth. You don't do this. You let the bible lead you to your variant of 'truth'. It is your assumption and your perception. Doesn't make it real or true though.

by Tosh Wed May 01, 2013 10:02 pm

within my own logic

.............but your own logic is not based on any logic.

by Guest Thu May 02, 2013 12:38 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
b’r’shythe

This is the first word of the Hebrew Bible.

Hebrew Bible

B’r’shythe bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.

Genesis 1:1

YHVH, Elohim, Allah, and “God”, when used to identify immeasurable, incomprehensible, causative power that, at b’r’shythe, creates from nothing everything that is, was, and will be creates from nothing everything that is, was, and will be, the scenario described in Genesis 1;1 which, in its “who-what-when-where”, Big Bang mirrors exactly (b’r’shythe, and “the event” both describe the same point in space-time at which space-time comes into existence), are real.

YHVH is a transliterated acronym that means eternal existence, eternally existent, eternally existent causation, and a number of other things which I struggle to comprehend over a figurative plateful of Tylenol. “YHWH”, a mis-transliteration commonly used by English speaking persons, including English speaking scholars, means the same thing. I once used “YHWH”, but ceased doing so several years ago, during the first decade of the 21st Century, in favor of YHVH, as recommended by several Hebrew scholars that are each fluent Hebrew speakers.

Elohim is plural Eloah used as a singular, and Allah is the Arabic rendition of Eloah (as Eloah is the Hebrew rendition of Allah). Both Elohim and Allah describe within their meanings immeasurable, incomprehensible, causative power that, at b’r’shythe, creates from nothing everything that is, was, and will be.

At fourteen years of age, I ceased allowing my mind to protect my belief system. My mind has always been pretty capable, but I decided that it doesn’t rule and direct me, I rule and direct it.

From my second teenaged year until now, I have exercised rule of my mind by directing it to seek and find truth to the best of its ability, which is why my head often hurts (usually figuratively, but sometimes literally) as I seek to understand truth.

There are many things in our universe of which we are unaware and/or for which we have no evidence. Given the explosion of that which man gender inclusive has come to know within my lifetime, I feel it safe to posit that we are unaware and/or have no evidence of most things in our universe. If ever I achieve omniscience, even for a moment. I would not be surprised to find that we are unaware of ninety-nine plus percent of things in our universe.

by Guest Thu May 02, 2013 1:00 am

by snowyflake Thu May 02, 2013 5:48 am

I give up. You cannot have a conversation. You lecture and preach repetitively. You don't see anyone else's point of view other than your own.

This staunchness of belief, without regard for the evidence, will get you into heaven. Hopefully right next to Jesus where you can sing the praises of God for all eternity ad nauseum. That is, after all, the grand prize.

Have a happy afterlife.

by Guest Thu May 02, 2013 6:56 am

by Tosh Thu May 02, 2013 8:38 am

seeking truth yields figurative and literal internal headaches and external ridicule.

Texas,

Seeking truth without proof or evidence would give anyone a headache, and claiming truth without evidence or proof invites ridicule.

Your truth is a game of CONNECT, you search about cherry picking fragments that support your predetermined truth, while ignoring the large chunks of evidence that contradict it.

But as you say, its your own logic.

by oftenwrong Thu May 02, 2013 12:14 pm

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html

by Shirina Thu May 02, 2013 1:23 pm

Well, this conversation exemplifies why I find religion and beliefs in gods and creators so dangerous. It's all well and good to have staunch convictions on an internet forum, but imagine if that same unwavering conviction was wielded by, say, Osama bin Laden, the Ayatollah Khomeini, the Ku Klux Klan ... oh wait ...

The problem is very simple. Sure, humanity has engaged in acts of violence and warfare over all manner of things: wealth, power, land, resources, etc. But only when it involves religion does the fighting go on and on and on and on ... generational hatred, generational wars. The reason is because religious conviction regardless of the religion or god is uncompromising. It is why it is almost guaranteed there will never be peace in the Middle East or peace anywhere, for that matter. War comes in all kinds of shapes and sizes; some do not even involve violence. The "Culture War" for instance, a term used by evangelicals and fundamentalists to describe their war on homosexuality in America.

by snowyflake Thu May 02, 2013 6:04 pm

Seeking truth yields no “grand prize”; seeking truth yields figurative and literal internal headaches and external ridicule.

You don't seek truth. You seek support for your belief. If you are not believing in God because you get to go to heaven, then what are you believing for?

by Tosh Thu May 02, 2013 10:42 pm

You don't seek truth. You seek support for your belief. If you are not believing in God because you get to go to heaven, then what are you believing for?

Snowy my dear, there are many reasons why people turn to religion, its not all death denial, in the case of Texas he does not like loose ends, he requires precise boundaries to explain his story of purpose, meaning and significance.
Nothing has changed much in 40,000 years, Texas wants answers, he wants explanations and he wants all of these things to remove ubiquitous anxiety.

I actually don't mind that, its the way he promotes and defends his paintings on the cave wall that is less appealing.

by Guest Thu May 02, 2013 10:59 pm

YHVH, often mis-transliterated YHWH, is causative eternal existence; I am “before/after” time and space. Elohim, Arabic equivalent Allah, is immeasurable, incomprehensible causative power by which everything that is, was, and will be is. These two “names” are descriptive of these two attributes of he that is.

I began at fourteen years of age. Starting at about twelve, after getting in bed for the night, rather than going to sleep, I would contemplate the universe, “stretching” as far as I could mentally across distance and time in all directions. As far back as I could “see”, as far forward as I could “see”, as far away as I could “see”, the universe was/is/will be. This was at a time when Hoyle’s Steady State was still the accepted model.

At some point, this mental exercise would lead to profound and all-pervasive fear. Then I would say, “Oh, but there’s God”, and in my mind God sort of wrapped it all up together, gathered things under his “something”, authority, sort of, but not exactly, and that thought would ease my fear and I could go to sleep. This wasn’t every night, but it was a lot of nights.

One night when I was fourteen, I got to the “Oh, but there is God” part, and stopped. I realized that I was using “God” to wrap things up in order to assuage my fear of contemplating the universe unwrapped up. That caused more fear, but I couldn’t shake the knowledge that all I was doing by introducing “God” was using “God” as a crutch, kind of like that blanket that Snoopy (in “peanuts”) would swoop in and steal from the boy. So I stopped, maybe not that night, but soon. I made my mind stretch out into space-time, and when fear set in, I made my mind keep going rather than turning to the crutch, the security blanket. That made for some restless nights.

When the high school newspaper article got out in which I was quoted using “existence of God” and “unproven” in the same sentence, a bit of mini “all hell breaking loose” ensued. The principal began requiring that the school paper’s student editor bring the “proofs” to him for his pre-authorization before publication. The reporter that interviewed me and I were criticized by the school paper’s staff for causing the censorship. A girl I liked a whole lot topped speaking pleasantly to me; instead, every time she saw me, she called me “Atheist!” and turned her back on me. I was mildly ostracized and ridiculed by a good handful of fellow students.

That was, in retrospect, the starting point. Belief in “God’ was no longer sufficient; if that’s all there was, then I was agnostic, and I dealt with the social consequences of being ostracized for being publicly honest. As I began college, that open atmosphere allowed me to cease focusing upon defending my unbelief and to begin contemplating that which I knew.

As the study of physics continued, I slowly realized design on a macro scale. Just the fact that phenomena like all of the mind-bending aspects of Special and General Relativity can be precisely described mathematically pretty much blew me away. One day, maybe two years into college, somewhere around twenty years of age, these self-revelations caused me to admit that the universe I studied is designed. Shortly after that, the sure knowledge that I was permeated, inundated, and surrounded by design caused me to admit that the designed universe is caused by a designer.

A lifetime of studying and contemplating all of this has caused me to know that the designer is exactly the entity described by YHVH and Elohim. The designer must possess power beyond comprehension, and thus, for all intents and purposes, must be omnipotent (Big Bang caused this revelation), the designer must pre-exist “the event”, must exist outside space-time, and thus, for all intents and purposes, must be eternal (Big Bang also caused this revelation), the designer must have knowledge of everything there is, was, and will be, and thus, for all intents and purposes, must be omnipresent and omniscient. These multiple “must be’s” have lead me to sure knowledge of the designer’s existence and attributes; the names, descriptive of these attributes, follow this knowledge rather than lead to this knowledge.

by Tosh Thu May 02, 2013 11:32 pm

Texas,

You didn't like the loose end, you see the mathematical nature of our universe and eureka you see design, no more loose end.

.....but you didn't stop there, there being a design was not good enough, you wanted more than just design, and even more than just a designer, you wanted an explanation for the design, an explanation that was relative to you, so you copied one from the bronze age.

Let us assume the universe is designed, what are the probabilities that the nature of the design and designer was revealed to one tribe in one region in one continent in one planet in one solar system in one galaxy. in one point in time...is the truth ?

The probabilities are so astronomical as to require faith to believe it, in plain fundamental English, the Bible is true because it says it is literally true.

Texas, I know you think your belief is scholarly bullet proof but in reality it is a charade, a form of intellectual self deception, your mind used to fight against irrationality and suddenly the mathematical description of physical cause and effect changes all that. You suddenly reject the concept of random symmetry, order from chaos and grasp with two hands a bronze age explanation.

I suggest in all honesty there were more underlying influences that persuaded you to reject rationality and embrace irrationality disguised as the truth.

The evidence for your intellectual self deception lies in your choice of debating style, it is designed to obscure and disguise the obvious weaknesses of your truth, your intellectual pride refuses to openly say " the Bible is true because I want to believe it is true ".

There is no need for all this charade, it doesn't make you a serial killer just needy like the rest of the human race.

by Tosh Thu May 02, 2013 11:56 pm

There is a certain type of personality that needs structure more than most, we all need book ends to stop us falling over but some fall further than others.
They require structures that offer belts and braces support if they fall or to stop them falling again, better still if the support structure forgives falling down.

Compulsive or impulsive people are considered to be lacking in self control, their mind is weaker than their drives,, they act out of instinct, a reaction to basic genetic needs, religion offers them refuge from reality, a reality that includes self loathing.

by oftenwrong Fri May 03, 2013 11:17 am

QUOTE: "YHVH, often mis-transliterated YHWH, is causative eternal existence ...."

Is there any significance in the fact that although the letter "Y" was present in Classic Greek, it had no place in the Latin alphabet until after the Roman conquest of Greece in the First Century BC?

by Tosh Fri May 03, 2013 2:01 pm

Is there any significance in the fact that although the letter "Y" was present in Classic Greek, it had no place in the Latin alphabet until after the Roman conquest of Greece in the First Century BC?

Probably, I find it very significant that the Christian church preferred to keep the Bible in a language few could understand.

by snowyflake Fri May 03, 2013 6:10 pm

Rock, you didn't answer the question. If you believe in God, you believe in heaven which is the grand prize of belief. If you don't believe in heaven then why do you believe in God? What's the point?

You spent a great deal of time and space not answering my question.

You talk about fear and I think this is at the heart of belief. Fear of dying, fear of the "not being". You won't know one way or the other. You have no cognizance of the time before you were born and you will have none after you die. There is nothing to fear.

So, please just answer this simple question without a long explanation. What do you believe in God for if it isn't to get into heaven?

by Guest Fri May 03, 2013 11:33 pm

Assuming that, by “God”, one means YHVH Elohim, eternally existent, immeasurable, incomprehensible, causative power by which all that is, was, and will be is. I don’t “believe” in God, I know God.

I believe in God’s promises because he has delivered on his promises to me. He never promised me a rose garden, so I haven’t looked for one. For example, through Y’shua’s apostle, Jesus’ apostle, Paul, he promised me that I can persevere through all things through Moshiach, Christ, who strengthens me.

I once feared death. I do not fear death now, for reasons I will not share on this or any public forum.

I fear not knowing the ends of space-time. We can’t even know what’s going on in our own solar system. Curiosity is just touching the hem of the garment on what’s happening right now in one tiny corner of Mars, the most known planet, and it can’t see back in time. Jupiter’s interior and Saturn’s interiors are unknowable for the foreseeable future. And past Neptune? Forget it. All we can do is examine from here visible and invisible magnetic waves that started their journeys here at least four point five years ago and up to millions or billions of years ago.

by Guest Sat May 04, 2013 3:50 am

by snowyflake Sat May 04, 2013 8:28 am

Alright, to sum up. You believe you are going to heaven when you die. That is the grand prize of unwavering, staunch, Job-like, dogmatic, in spite of all evidence to the contrary belief.

If you didn't believe in your Elohim you would go to hell.

Fear of hell is at the root of your belief.

by Guest Sat May 04, 2013 10:59 am

by snowyflake Sat May 04, 2013 11:15 am

Alright, to sum up. You don't believe in death so your belief is death denial. You believe you are going to heaven.

Heaven is the grand prize and death denial and belief in God will get you there. Otherwise, why would you or anyone else believe in God at all? Maybe you aren't afraid of the dying process but you are afraid of the 'not being'. And you think you are important to God and therefore worthy of not 'dying' and going to heaven (wherever that is).

by Tosh Sat May 04, 2013 11:39 am

Compelling evidence of design s creams forth from the organization of all that is into space-time, mass-energy, weak force, strong force, electromagnetism, and gravity in the first few tiniest fractions of a nanosecond after the “event” of Big Bang, and design screams “designer.”

Texas,

If the mathematical nature of our universe was indeed compelling evidence for design then can you explain why few physicists agree with you, why are physicists not looking for a designer ?

A Nobel Laureate physicist from Texas says this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdq_2c2dCgE

The obvious symmetry in our universe can be accounted for, and its called gravity, your God is in effect gravity.

by Guest Sat May 04, 2013 11:47 am

by polyglide Sat May 04, 2013 12:06 pm

As usual Shirina you are unable to understand what is implied.

All inventions etc; are as a result of past actions etc;

However, what the present generations will do with the latest inventions will not depend on what others did with theirs in the past, it will depend entirely on present circumstaneces which are changing daily.

by snowyflake Sat May 04, 2013 12:12 pm

Your summation has nothing to do with what I’ve said.

It doesn't have to.

by Tosh Sat May 04, 2013 12:13 pm

All inventions etc; are as a result of past actions etc;

I thought you discounted what has gone before, changed your tune eh ?

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