How are adults talked into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

First topic message reminder :

How are adults talked into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

Please ignore that I do not believe in any invisible entity. I would like this thread to be about you.
I also have rejected the notion of anything being able to breach the limits of nature and physics.
No miracles allowed in my theology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

If you do not follow your religion because of culture and tradition, when did you begin to be a believer?

Can you describe how you were made to believe in fantasy or imaginary creatures?

Were you an adult at that time or a child?

If a child, could this real phenomena be what caused you to believe?

http://academia.edu/503195/_Princess_Alice_is_watching_you_Childrens_belief_in_an_invisible_person_inhibits_cheating

Regards
DL

How are adults persuaded into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

The answer is really simple. Get children to believe in them first. Start off with Father Christmas. the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and it will easy to get them to believe in angels, mediums, soothsayers or witches when they are old. Surround it with pseudo-logic and sprinkle it with hope and you have a recipe fit to enslave anyone with.

If we stop telling children lies then adults will be less gullible.

Heretic

Very true Heretic, but would it not spoil xmas for the kids when they are young and expecting santa bringing their prezzies?

stu wrote:Very true Heretic, but would it not spoil xmas for the kids when they are young and expecting santa bringing their prezzies?

What's wrong with having a party where everyone gets presents. We could call it giftmas. No need for supernatural anything. The only magic needed is the love we have for each other.

Heretic

Heretic wrote:If we stop telling children lies then adults will be less gullible.

So do we stop telling children any stories? Children read books, watch films and tv, make up stories. They don't think that they're all true. There must be a difference between telling a child about Father Christmas and about a religion. Even religious people grow out of Father Christmas.

Heretic wrote:How are adults persuaded into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

The answer is really simple. Get children to believe in them first. Start off with Father Christmas. the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy and it will easy to get them to believe in angels, mediums, soothsayers or witches when they are old. Surround it with pseudo-logic and sprinkle it with hope and you have a recipe fit to enslave anyone with.

If we stop telling children lies then adults will be less gullible.

Heretic

we are stuck in a loop of lies.

Heretic wrote:

stu wrote:Very true Heretic, but would it not spoil xmas for the kids when they are young and expecting santa bringing their prezzies?

What's wrong with having a party where everyone gets presents. We could call it giftmas. No need for supernatural anything. The only magic needed is the love we have for each other.

Heretic

we had one of those in london a while back. people called it looting and rioting!

My daughter is beginning to stop believing in father xmas now, she picks her own prezzies etc so she knows which ones she is going to get out of a choice of the ones shes picked.

Sam Hunter wrote:

Heretic wrote:If we stop telling children lies then adults will be less gullible.

So do we stop telling children any stories?  Children read books, watch films and tv, make up stories.  They don't think that they're all true. There must be a difference between telling a child about Father Christmas and about a religion.  Even religious people grow out of Father Christmas.

Don't we teach children about creative imagination? They seem to be able to grasp the concept of reality versus imaginary from a young age. We must be sending a message to our children that religion equals reality, or is at least a possibility, otherwise belief would have died out very early on. The evidence for religion is all around in the behaviour of adults, on TV, and in art and architecture. We send a powerful message that it exists, and an equally powerful message that Father Christmas and the Easter bunny do not.  

But losing a belief in Father Christmas doesn't mean losing Christmas. To lose belief in god/Jesus, however, risks losing family support, morals, community, ritual.

"To lose belief in god/Jesus, however, risks losing family support, morals, community, ritual."

Really?

To use a set of lies and half truths to support the institution of family life? Do we need lies to support morals?

I think that none of this is needed when the truth is available. The truth supports our families, our morals and our communities. What firmer foundation can there be. If we look around us at the mess religion makes of people are we not more secure in a secular society, the fact that more people are beginning to embrace the secular society tells it's own story.

Heretic

timeout wrote:we had one of those in london a while back. people called it looting and rioting!

Call it what it was, a riot. Government needs to sort that one out or it is not really governing.

Heretic

'Do we need lies to support morals?'

No, we shouldn't need to lie to our children in return for moral behaviour. But we've built a framework, or system, to support the lies. It's been built into our psyche, and I'm not sure how we can change that system for the better.

I like the new avatar - a bit scary!  

timeout wrote:

stu wrote:Hi Richard mate, glad you made it good man

well the amazon forum's sinking faster than Noah's ark!  really fed up with their ad hoc deletions.  and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt!

I wonder whether Amazon actually are actively trying to lose most of the forums. They don't want a discussion forum what they really want is a product promotion forum but it seems the whole thing took on a life of its own. The law of unintended consequences.

I think Amazon will be only to happy if they no longer have to deal with "problem" posters. It does nothing to help sell products and is probably a huge headache for them.

Bellatori wrote:

timeout wrote:

stu wrote:Hi Richard mate, glad you made it good man

well the amazon forum's sinking faster than Noah's ark!  really fed up with their ad hoc deletions.  and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt!

I wonder whether Amazon actually are actively trying to lose most of the forums. They don't want a discussion forum what they really want is a product promotion forum but it seems the whole thing took on a life of its own. The law of unintended consequences.

i suspect you're right they were just looking for somewhere customers would talk about the books they'd purchased. as such it would really be a book review forum which i suppose could have been of interest but it had to potential to be so much more. i must have bought at least half a dozen books as a direct result of recommendations on the religion forum as well as discussions leading me to search for books on related topics. i think that an enquiring mind can get a lot out of such forums but in my opinion Amazon really screwed it up with extremely poor ill judged moderating.

Bearman wrote:I think Amazon will be only to happy if they no longer have to deal with "problem" posters. It does nothing to help sell products and is probably a huge headache for them.

i rather suspect that all they are going to be left with are the 'problem' posters lol

trouble is they couldn't seem to recognise them as such. i wonder now that they seem to have lost the only people that they could rant off at and dump their reams of C&P posts to whether the people that were causing the problems will march off looking for confrontation elsewhere!

Kazza wrote:'Do we need lies to support morals?'

No, we shouldn't need to lie to our children in return for moral behaviour. But we've built a framework, or system, to support the lies. It's been built into our psyche, and I'm not sure how we can change that system for the better.

I like the new avatar - a bit scary!  

only if you've been a naughty little sinner lol

I've been on Santa's naughty list for years. I also noted with interest that the tooth fairy failed to visit me the other night after I had a wisdom tooth extracted!

'Only if you've been a naughty little sinner LOL'

There's no fun without a little sin every now and then.

 But what is the definition of sin? Is it the concept in the bible written XXX years ago, or a more modern moral concept?

Kazza wrote:'Only if you've been a naughty little sinner LOL'

There's no fun without a little sin every now and then.

or is there no sin without a little fun! maybe the concept of sin was to suck the fun out of life!

Well the old forum is just about dead , just about 5 posters left,I popped in yesterday to post to peter and that was it

Its not dead, its just lingering, this site is rubbish and I'll be going back.
 
whats the point without a TOM M, or a Bradders, theres nothing to talk about, I think certain peple just got too carried away with their replies and got banned, its was weird, but Ive seen worse on video games forums.

Hi Stu - I have been off line all morning, and just type a reply to one of Spin's nonsense messages when I remembered the move. I had to hunt about a bit to find the name of this forum, but now I'm here. I will continue to visit the old cookery forum as the exchanges there are never going to get censored!

Dr Leonard Hofstadter wrote:Its not dead, its just lingering, this site is rubbish and I'll be going back.
 
whats the point without a TOM M, or a Bradders, theres nothing to talk about, I think certain peple just got too carried away with their replies and got banned, its was weird, but Ive seen worse on video games forums.

Give Spin a kiss from me.

Bearman wrote:I think Amazon will be only to happy if they no longer have to deal with "problem" posters. It does nothing to help sell products and is probably a huge headache for them.

To be honest I think it's a minor inconvenience for them. Either way, our not posting there is not something that will bother them.

WELL dr len you are welcome bye. Bearman say hi from me when you pop into the cooking forum please many thanks

Hope you are well dan,nice to know what you look like ahah

stu wrote:Hope you are well dan,nice to know what you look like ahah

That's the real Dan Fante. He looks even ropier than I do.

Oh dear what a shame nevermind. haha

'Do we need lies to support morals?'

Kazza wrote:No, we shouldn't need to lie to our children in return for moral behaviour. But we've built a framework, or system, to support the lies. It's been built into our psyche, and I'm not sure how we can change that system for the better.

Why don't we tell our children when an 'imaginary' character doesn't really exist and everything said about them is 'pretend'. They will slowly get a very clear idea of when someone is invented and when they are real.

Kazza wrote:I like the new avatar - a bit scary!  

I like it too.  

Heretic

Sam Hunter wrote:So do we stop telling children any stories?  Children read books, watch films and tv, make up stories.  They don't think that they're all true. There must be a difference between telling a child about Father Christmas and about a religion.  Even religious people grow out of Father Christmas.

Just clearly point out to them what is real and what is pretend. Kids are smart and they'll soon figure out 'real' and 'pretend' are different.

Heretic

Bellatori wrote:I wonder whether Amazon actually are actively trying to lose most of the forums. They don't want a discussion forum what they really want is a product promotion forum but it seems the whole thing took on a life of its own. The law of unintended consequences.

Amazon thought that if they had discussion groups where they could group people by interests then they would advertise products to each other. That's not how discussion groups work.

Heretic

Very true Heretic, when you have a discussion group such as on a forum, you usually pick the title of the thread that you wish to discuss the subject on and carry on from there. Sometimes going astray and discussing or chatting about something completely different.

timeout wrote:

Kazza wrote:'Only if you've been a naughty little sinner LOL'

There's no fun without a little sin every now and then.

 

or is there no sin without a little fun!    maybe the concept of sin was to suck the fun out of life!

Actually, that's exactly what it was all about. Religion is the most boring, humorless, utterly somber institution ever created. The idea is that "fun" would distract you from God and worship, so you don't want to enjoy yourself. It might make you too "worldly" and you'll forget all about superstitious mambo-jahambo. In fact, if you have TOO much fun, you might even forget about bishops and cardinals and popes who are trying to control you.

If you have any spare time when you're not simply trying to survive, you better be using it to to read your Bible and stroke God's ego. After all, if you don't tell God how great he is at least every few minutes, he might curse you with a bad harvest or kill one of your children.

Oh Shirina what can I say, if having fun is a sin let us all be sinners, and certainly forget the cardinals and bishops and the pope. As for reading my bible? I threw mine out years ago, so there will be no stroking of god's ego. So if there is such a person is that him who cursed me with my illness? I doubt it, it was just one of those brain virus that I got instead of someone else.

Heretic wrote:Just clearly point out to them what is real and what is pretend. Kids are smart and they'll soon figure out 'real' and 'pretend' are different.

You know that I don't want children being told that religions are real and all of that, but where is the harm in Father Christmas? You're right when you say that children work out what's real and what isn't. They grow out of Father Christmas because there's no constant reinforcement that he's real. Telling them it's a fantasy just spoils what's harmless childhood fun.

Be against harmful lies such as religions, but don't go to extremes.

Shirina wrote:Religion is the most boring, humorless, utterly somber institution ever created. The idea is that "fun" would distract you from God and worship, so you don't want to enjoy yourself.

To be fair, while this is broadly true of the Abrahamic religions (and probably others as well), it isn't true of all religions throughout history. If I remember correctly, ancient greek worship wasn't all about abstention and sombre, humourless contemplation. Pagans can get up to all sorts of stuff.

It's not always completely true with regards to Christianity. Some churches worship with gospel music, to take one example. Whatever you think of the sentiments expressed in gospel music, "boring", "humourless" and "sombre" aren't words that could fairly describe it.

As far as I'm concerned, all religions are equally false, but they aren't all the same.

Sam it's very true all children grow out of the fantasy of father xmas, and it would spoil the whole idea for them by telling them the truth at a young age.

Shirina wrote:If you have any spare time when you're not simply trying to survive, you better be using it to to read your Bible and stroke God's ego. After all, if you don't tell God how great he is at least every few minutes, he might curse you with a bad harvest or kill one of your children.

This is the whole point of it, religion did not begin in ancient Egypt until people were able to feed themselves easily. With that spare time on their hands their rulers needed a methodology to control the people. Choice one was a standing army, a little later came religion. The funny thing about the Egyptian example is that the rulers came to believe in the religion too. Oh and who did the Egyptian rulers choose to be their gods? you got it - themselves.

Heretic

Sam Hunter wrote:You know that I don't want children being told that religions are real and all of that, but where is the harm in Father Christmas?

Where's the harm in Father Christmas? The harm is that it sets up a pattern of lies until the child realises how gullible he/she has been and he realises that he has been lied to by those that he/she relies on for survival.

Sam Hunter wrote:You're right when you say that children work out what's real and what isn't.

Yes they are smart but it takes time. Time which they eventually realise was built on a lie.

Sam Hunter wrote:They grow out of Father Christmas because there's no constant reinforcement that he's real.

But there is reinforcement year after year from parents, siblings, teachers, television, cinema, retails outlets and there extended family. All of that reinforcement that will eventually be used to bolster the bigger lies told by religion.

Sam Hunter wrote:Telling them it's a fantasy just spoils what's harmless childhood fun.

Not if done sensitively as I suggested. It is quite easy to tell children the difference between what it real/true and what is pretend/'not true'. It can even be turned into a game, a game that will re-enforce lessons learned later in life, becoming in fact the very foundation for those lessons.

Sam Hunter wrote:Be against harmful lies such as religions, but don't go to extremes.

Extremes would be to execute priests and missionaries. What I propose is a way to bring children up so that when they are presented by the lies of religion that their natural response would be "Don't be silly".

No more, no less.

Heretic

Heretic wrote:Where's the harm in Father Christmas? The harm is that it sets up a pattern of lies until the child realises how gullible he/she has been and he realises that he has been lied to by those that he/she relies on for survival.

Show me some evidence that stories (which is just what Father Christmas is) are a "gateway lie" that leads to religion. Why Father Christmas and not Star Wars or Doctor Who? My nephews treat them all in the same way.