How are adults talked into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

First topic message reminder :

How are adults talked into believing in fantasy creatures, miracles and magic?

Please ignore that I do not believe in any invisible entity. I would like this thread to be about you.
I also have rejected the notion of anything being able to breach the limits of nature and physics.
No miracles allowed in my theology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

If you do not follow your religion because of culture and tradition, when did you begin to be a believer?

Can you describe how you were made to believe in fantasy or imaginary creatures?

Were you an adult at that time or a child?

If a child, could this real phenomena be what caused you to believe?

http://academia.edu/503195/_Princess_Alice_is_watching_you_Childrens_belief_in_an_invisible_person_inhibits_cheating

Regards
DL

Heretic wrote:Where's the harm in Father Christmas? The harm is that it sets up a pattern of lies until the child realises how gullible he/she has been and he realises that he has been lied to by those that he/she relies on for survival.

Show me some evidence that stories (which is just what Father Christmas is) are a "gateway lie" that leads to religion. Why Father Christmas and not Star Wars or Doctor Who? My nephews treat them all in the same way.

Heretic wrote:

Sam Hunter wrote:You know that I don't want children being told that religions are real and all of that, but where is the harm in Father Christmas?

Where's the harm in Father Christmas? The harm is that it sets up a pattern of lies until the child realises how gullible he/she has been and he realises that he has been lied to by those that he/she relies on for survival.

Sam Hunter wrote:You're right when you say that children work out what's real and what isn't.

Yes they are smart but it takes time. Time which they eventually realise was built on a lie.

Sam Hunter wrote:They grow out of Father Christmas because there's no constant reinforcement that he's real.

But there is reinforcement year after year from parents, siblings, teachers, television, cinema, retails outlets and there extended family. All of that reinforcement that will eventually be used to bolster the bigger lies told by religion.

Sam Hunter wrote:Telling them it's a fantasy just spoils what's harmless childhood fun.

Not if done sensitively as I suggested. It is quite easy to tell children the difference between what it real/true and what is pretend/'not true'. It can even be turned into a game, a game that will re-enforce lessons learned later in life, becoming in fact the very foundation for those lessons.

Sam Hunter wrote:Be against harmful lies such as religions, but don't go to extremes.

Extremes would be to execute priests and missionaries. What I propose is a way to bring children up so that when they are presented by the lies of religion that their natural response would be "Don't be silly".

No more, no less.

Heretic

children seem to get an amazing amount of enjoyment from fantasy knowing full well that it's fantasy from the outset and that does not stop it from igniting their imagination and creativity. i see no reason why Santa, tooth fairy, Easter bunny etc can not be presented in the same fashion.

the wonder of childhood is not needing something to be real in order to enjoy believing it for the fun and excitement. one has to wonder therefore why adults insist on putting so much effort into trying to convince children for as long as possible that it's real!

Heretic and Sam   stu no comment

Sam Hunter wrote:Show me some evidence that stories (which is just what Father Christmas is) are a "gateway lie" that leads to religion.

I would of thought that the train of thought was sufficient and self evident.

However let's take a look at Father Christmas. Here is a character that was created to appeal to children especially, let's not pretend that he has any allure for adults. So here we have a big jolly man in a bright red and white suit (it was green and white until a massive marketing campaign by coca-cola) that gives away presents to children. You can see that there is a definite allure here for children.

In the excitement of waiting for 'Father Christmas' you then get the child to take part in the presentation of another lie only this time the 'lie' is not about the jolly Father Christmas but a story (lie) about a baby born in Bethlehem. There will forever be an association between the lie of Father Christmas and the lie of the Nativity.

Not very scientific but there is a kind of logic there and I'm sure you can fill in any gaps.

Sam Hunter wrote:Why Father Christmas and not Star Wars or Doctor Who? My nephews treat them all in the same way.

While it is healthy for children to play and use their imagination they must be able to know at all times what is real and what is pretend and how to tell the difference. Pretence and imagination are not mad or bad as long as it is known that it is pretence. I would argue that somebody that is really clear about the difference is far less likely to fall into the traps that are placed in most of our pathways although most people in the UK would walk straight past anyway.

I don't know how old your nephew is but mine are in their 30's. Your nephew seems to have a healthy attitude and long may it remain so. There is harm in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Star Wars or Doctor Who as long as it is known by all those watching, listening, reading or whatever that it is pretend and not real.

Heretic

timeout wrote:children seem to get an amazing amount of enjoyment from fantasy knowing full well that it's fantasy from the outset and that does not stop it from igniting their imagination and creativity.  i see no reason why Santa, tooth fairy, Easter bunny etc can not be presented in the same fashion.

I am not suggesting these stories are no longer told but that the children know that these stories are "pretend" and that they didn't really happen. This does not need to take away the magical spark of the children's imagination. As long as this is tackled with sensitivity nothing has changed except that the child knows that he is not being lied to but that the story is just for fun.

timeout wrote:the wonder of childhood is not needing something to be real in order to enjoy believing it for the fun and excitement.  

I agree with you entirely.

timeout wrote:one has to wonder therefore why adults insist on putting so much effort into trying to convince children for as long as possible that it's real!  

They generally only give up on Father Christmas is when they can no longer afford the unlimited list that the children seem to think that Father Christmas can afford.

Heretic

Got your point now Heretic my man, father xmas will always be associated to religion, and the birth of jesus. Which especially if you are an atheist he did not exist, but you are teaching your children he did.

Shirina wrote:

timeout wrote:

Kazza wrote:'Only if you've been a naughty little sinner LOL'

There's no fun without a little sin every now and then.

 

or is there no sin without a little fun!    maybe the concept of sin was to suck the fun out of life!

Actually, that's exactly what it was all about. Religion is the most boring, humorless, utterly somber institution ever created. The idea is that "fun" would distract you from God and worship, so you don't want to enjoy yourself. It might make you too "worldly" and you'll forget all about superstitious mambo-jahambo. In fact, if you have TOO much fun, you might even forget about bishops and cardinals and popes who are trying to control you.

If you have any spare time when you're not simply trying to survive, you better be using it to to read your Bible and stroke God's ego. After all, if you don't tell God how great he is at least every few minutes, he might curse you with a bad harvest or kill one of your children.

Now isn't that the truth. You ought to visit a Welsh chapel sometime, a more humourless stiff bunch of hypocrites I cannot imagine.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Now isn't that the truth. You ought to visit a Welsh chapel sometime, a more humourless stiff bunch of hypocrites I cannot imagine.

Much better than the "Prosperity Gospel" crowd. They believe that if you are sick or poor then you are not right with god.

Heretic

Blimey theres some funny god lovers about is there not

Heretic wrote:

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:Now isn't that the truth. You ought to visit a Welsh chapel sometime, a more humourless stiff bunch of hypocrites I cannot imagine.

Much better than the "Prosperity Gospel" crowd. They believe that if you are sick or poor then you are not right with god.

Heretic

In my youth I spent some time with the "horizons" a happy clappy bunch of born agains, but they were on the whole a nice bunch, their beliefs were weird, but no one could accuse them of not being happy anyway. Some of the younger ones though seemed like troubled "souls" to me, as if they were struggling to deal with the obvious holes in it all.

Does it seem strange to you or is it just me Sheldon, that all the religious people wether happy or miserable, have always got a fault of some kind?

Heretic wrote:Much better than the "Prosperity Gospel" crowd. They believe that if you are sick or poor then you are not right with god.
Heretic

The weird thing is this is not a new concept, this has been around for centuries in one form or another Calvinism being the one that springs to mind. Hmong people believe that if you are sick then one of your souls are missing and a shamen needs to perform a ceremony to retrieve before treatment can be administered

Deadly Nightshade have you taken some? three posts on the trot all exactly the same?

stu wrote:Deadly Nightshade have you taken some? three posts on the trot all exactly the same?

No.. Not sure what happened have been trying to delete the other 2 but for some reason unable to I'm just about to pm Ivan to see if I can get him to do it

Best of luck D.N he is a good guy, solved my problem.

Deadly Nightshade. Extra messages deleted! I doubt if it was your fault; there have been a few glitches in the last 24 hours. If they continue to occur, I'll go to the support forum for assistance.
 
Thank you stu, your kind words are much appreciated and fairly unusual - administrators usually only receive grumbles!

Hi Ivan well friend, I have not one grumble to make, I have found this site far better than our old one I CAN ASSURE YOU. as I can thank you to your face almost,thank-you very much for sorting my logging in problem out and as you can see the number of posts made since doing so ahah

Heretic wrote:

Sam Hunter wrote:Show me some evidence that stories (which is just what Father Christmas is) are a "gateway lie" that leads to religion.

I would of thought that the train of thought was sufficient and self evident.

However let's take a look at Father Christmas. Here is a character that was created to appeal to children especially, let's not pretend that he has any allure for adults. So here we have a big jolly man in a bright red and white suit (it was green and white until a massive marketing campaign by coca-cola) that gives away presents to children. You can see that there is a definite allure here for children.

In the excitement of waiting for 'Father Christmas' you then get the child to take part in the presentation of another lie only this time the 'lie' is not about the jolly Father Christmas but a story (lie) about a baby born in Bethlehem. There will forever be an association between the lie of Father Christmas and the lie of the Nativity.

Not very scientific but there is a kind of logic there and I'm sure you can fill in any gaps.

Sam Hunter wrote:Why Father Christmas and not Star Wars or Doctor Who? My nephews treat them all in the same way.

While it is healthy for children to play and use their imagination they must be able to know at all times what is real and what is pretend and how to tell the difference. Pretence and imagination are not mad or bad as long as it is known that it is pretence. I would argue that somebody that is really clear about the difference is far less likely to fall into the traps that are placed in most of our pathways although most people in the UK would walk straight past anyway.

I don't know how old your nephew is but mine are in their 30's. Your nephew seems to have a healthy attitude and long may it remain so. There is harm in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Star Wars or Doctor Who as long as it is known by all those watching, listening, reading or whatever that it is pretend and not real.

Heretic  

Actually, it goes well beyond this as a gateway lie to religion. Think of it ...

Santa Claus is more than just a jolly fat guy who gives away presents for kids.

First of all, he is omniscient. Remember the song, "He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake!" So already we're teaching children about a "godlike" being that spies on you at all times.

Secondly, there is the idea of being good and bad. Here, children are being taught about sin and how we shouldn't be "bad" (sinful) because Santa (God) is watching, and he might not give you presents!

Thirdly, there is the concept of being omnipresent - that somehow this Santa can literally visit every home of every child on earth in a single 24 hour period. Only a god could do something like that. In fact, Santa can apparently get into any home no matter how good the security system is and leave no sleigh marks or reindeer prints in the snow. Wow, how does he do that?

Fourth, children are taught the consequences of being bad (sinning) because if you're bad, you'll get a lump of coal in your stocking - or so the saying goes here in the USA. Only the good kids get presents, and the better you were, the more presents you'll get.

And fifth, kids are allowed to experience an element of fear and doubt, wondering if they had been good enough to receive presents. Some kids really start to straighten up and behave themselves a month or so before Christmas thinking they can make up for bad behavior the other 11 months. Of course, this mirrors the element of fear and doubt adults have about whether they have been good enough to enter Heaven, whether or not they have been saved. I have known quite a number of elderly folks who suddenly find religion when they realize their lives are drawing to a close ... hmm, sound familiar?

Santa is just God for children, and many adults try to transition from Santa to God as if they were the same being. Yes, Santa was a lie, but not God .... no, no, God is REAL! But it all amounts to the same thing.

NO COMMENTS Shirina,time for my dinner then bedtime. sleep well folks

Shirina wrote:Actually, it goes well beyond this as a gateway lie to religion. Think of it ...

Santa Claus is more than just a jolly fat guy who gives away presents for kids.

First of all, he is omniscient. Remember the song, "He knows when you are sleeping. He knows when you're awake. He knows when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake!" So already we're teaching children about a "godlike" being that spies on you at all times.

Secondly, there is the idea of being good and bad. Here, children are being taught about sin and how we shouldn't be "bad" (sinful) because Santa (God) is watching, and he might not give you presents!

Thirdly, there is the concept of being omnipresent - that somehow this Santa can literally visit every home of every child on earth in a single 24 hour period. Only a god could do something like that. In fact, Santa can apparently get into any home no matter how good the security system is and leave no sleigh marks or reindeer prints in the snow. Wow, how does he do that?

Fourth, children are taught the consequences of being bad (sinning) because if you're bad, you'll get a lump of coal in your stocking - or so the saying goes here in the USA. Only the good kids get presents, and the better you were, the more presents you'll get.

And fifth, kids are allowed to experience an element of fear and doubt, wondering if they had been good enough to receive presents. Some kids really start to straighten up and behave themselves a month or so before Christmas thinking they can make up for bad behavior the other 11 months. Of course, this mirrors the element of fear and doubt adults have about whether they have been good enough to enter Heaven, whether or not they have been saved. I have known quite a number of elderly folks who suddenly find religion when they realize their lives are drawing to a close ... hmm, sound familiar?

Santa is just God for children, and many adults try to transition from Santa to God as if they were the same being. Yes, Santa was a lie, but not God .... no, no, God is REAL! But it all amounts to the same thing.

All points that I should of picked up on but I lost interest in Giftmas a long time ago. Thankyou.

Heretic

Shirina wrote:Santa is just God for children, and many adults try to transition from Santa to God as if they were the same being. Yes, Santa was a lie, but not God .... no, no, God is REAL! But it all amounts to the same thing.

I guess that I had a different experience of Father Christmas when I was young. There was none of that "you've gotta be good" stuff. It was just a bit of fun that my sister and I grew out of without having to be explicitely told that it wasn't real.

I just think that sometimes people take things too far. The danger is in religion. Argue against that by all means, but I think there's a danger of that being diluted by being seen as a killjoy for decrying Santa Claus as a danger to children.

I've thought for a long time that getting children to believe in Santa Claus was just 'practice' to get them to believe in God. I remember being absolutely gutted when I found out at school that Santa wasn't real. (I must have been 19 or 20................:lol!: )

I even remember the little girls name who told me that Santa wasn't real. And I do remember thinking that my parents were big fat liars and I was upset for weeks.

However, in spite of that, I still became a believer and a Christian and believed in an intelligence governing the universe well into my 30's. Go figure eh? :)

Guys and Gals'

I rather think we are getting a bit poe faced over  . It is NOT  's fault  . It is, however, parents fault (along with organised religion). I never told my children Santa was either real or not real. When finally they were old enough to start asking questions then I equated it to play and fun... 'Don't we have pretend games? Well this is an adult one. We love giving presents and aren't all the things (that were listed above by Sharina) we say about being good worthwhile?" "Oh and can we play this next year!!"

The problem is that there are interest groups that think Gods and religion are real rather than they are a psychological crutch. These together with gullible suggestible parents fail to point out the pretend aspect to religion and indoctrinate children.

We learn through play and there is nothing wrong in imagination but what is amusing and charming in a four year old who has an imaginary friend is, IMHO, a suitable case for treatment when it is exhibited by an adult.

That's a good attitude to have, Bellatori. I think it's one I'll adopt when my bairn is old enough. This will probably be the first Christmas when he appreciates what is happening a bit, with him coming up to 3 years old and beginning to form sentences and understand more things.

As an aside, is it true Jesus became Santa after he signed a deal with Coca Cola? Or am I getting mixed up?

Each parent does there own thing no matter what, Bellatori's idea is good, but my daughter sees what she wants in the shop's and ask's for it for xmas now. No santa this year I think

stu wrote:Each parent does there own thing no matter what...

Indeed we do but then I get that queasy feeling when a parent or other supposedly significant adult says to a child

"I have an invisible friend who watches all the time and can do stuff" and, apparently, they believe this.

This, in my view is both corrupt and corrupting. A child has no reference to argue from and, because they are essentially trusting of these 'responsible' adults they have no defence against being indoctrinated with such superstitions.

Very true Bellatori, I do believe that most atheist's think mostly that way. That's when you get the feeling of wanting to step in is it not, but in a lot of cases you cannnot to save arguing in the supermarket or high street.

I remember at some point in my youth that I just got tired of parents and relatives lying to me. I really don't know why people think it's okay to lie to children but think it's a mortal sin if adults do it to each other.

I remember as a child when my grandfather bought a new house. He wanted me to visit, so he made up this elaborate vision of what the house was like -- there was a carousel in the back yard and a machine that dispensed any flavor ice cream that I wanted with just a push of a button and all kinds of things children pine for.

Of course, the first time I went to his house, I combed the place like a crime scene detective looking for that ice cream machine ... of course, nothing. And there certainly wasn't a carousel in the back yard. It was really disappointing. Adults seem to think that children forget what they're told when adults make lofty promises or set up lures to get children to do as adults wish. If you're going to promise a child something, you better follow through with it. The lesson being taught to children with lies and deception isn't a good one.

As for Santa ... I don't mean to diss good ole St. Nick. With me, I figured out there was no Santa before anyone told me. The clues against his existence were everywhere. I pretended to believe for a long time fearing that my family would stop heaping presents around the tree if they found out. Frankly, I outgrew Santa and didn't care if he existed or not ... just as long as the presents kept coming! Yeah, call me greedy! But, since I was an only child and there were no other children in the family, my relatives went through the 'ritual' of Santa right up until I graduated high school, even getting up in the middle of the night to place the presents to keep up the illusion that Santa had come. LOL! It was sweet of them to do that.

I don't think most kids are traumatized by the Santa myth as long as the presents keep coming. That's the real fear, I think.

But Santa does prepare the young mind for believing without evidence -- faith, as it were.

In childrens cases at xmas Shirina, their faith is more in their parent's getting the present's they want rather than santa, once they have started to outgrow him. I personally have not heard my daughter mention god or jesus etc, except unless she is in the school nativity play?

[quote="Dan Fante"]As an aside, is it true Jesus became Santa after he signed a deal with Coca Cola? Or am I getting mixed up? [/quote]
Jesus had let himself go a bit and no one was hiring him for weddings (wine making) and funerals (raising the dead) so Coca Cola snapped him up and threw him in a red suit, made him get friendly with reindeer and elves and the rest went down in history as they say. :)

Right I don't like this quote button at the top of my post. It doesn't put the post I'm quoting in a nice box for all to see.

Dan Fante wrote:As an aside, is it true Jesus became Santa after he signed a deal with Coca Cola? Or am I getting mixed up?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............? Whattsa matta you?   

snowyflake wrote:Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............? Whattsa matta you?   

Shaddap you face

No Dan santa use to wear a green outfit, then signed a deal with coca cola so went to wearing red. A thing then was he went religious with coca cola. 

stu wrote:No Dan santa use to wear a green outfit, then signed a deal with coca cola so went to wearing red. A thing then was he went religious with coca cola. 

i thought it was originally a blue outfit!

green it was ................ makes sense really.

stu wrote:No Dan santa use to wear a green outfit, then signed a deal with coca cola so went to wearing red. A thing then was he went religious with coca cola. 

That's an urban legend actually Stu (the Coca Cola thing) but he was portrayed wearing green and white sometimes. I've seen old Victorian / Edwardian Xmas cards like that.
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/santa/cocacola.asp

Glad to tell you what I only know, if anyone comes along to prove me different there you go. I was told that myself whilst moving over to here. Hi timeout hope you are well.

stu wrote:Glad to tell you what I only know, if anyone comes along to prove me different there you go. I was told that myself whilst moving over to here. Hi timeout hope you are well.

Hi Stu,

i'm doing fine thanks. still finding my round this site which seems a lot quieter than i'd expected. unfortunately the username Richard had already been taken but do feel free to keep using it as i'm still wondering who this timeout dude is!

i was also told that Coca cola had turned Santa red but then i was also told they'd turned him red from his original blue! it's always interesting to learn something new. i suppose the trick is having been informed to remember. i tend to fall down on the remembering part. 

Timeout this site is non-stop I can assure you, go to the top of this page mate and press the religion bit,and it gives you about forty choices i'm on five of them, plus another under other matters just view them before you discuss ok. 

stu wrote:Timeout this site is non-stop I can assure you, go to the top of this page mate and press the religion bit,and it gives you about forty choices i'm on five of them, plus another  under other matters just view them before you discuss ok. 

i shall keep popping by for a while.

Will look out for you, take care