How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

First topic message reminder :

Epicurus tried to tell us not to worry about death saying...

“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.”

which is often summed up by the very pithy

“I was not, I was, I am not, I care not. (Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo)”

The first quote is part of a much longer quote from a surviving letter he wrote.

“Accustom yourself to the belief that death is of no concern to us, since all good and evil lie in sensation and sensation ends with death. Therefore the true belief that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life happy, not by adding to it an infinite time, but by taking away the desire for immortality. For there is no reason why the man who is thoroughly assured that there is nothing to fear in death should find anything to fear in life. So, too, he is foolish who says that he fears death, not because it will be painful when it comes, but because the anticipation of it is painful; for that which is no burden when it is present gives pain to no purpose when it is anticipated. Death, the most dreaded of evils, is therefore of no concern to us; for while we exist death is not present, and when death is present we no longer exist. It is therefore nothing either to the living or to the dead since it is not present to the living, and the dead no longer are.”

It has to be born in mind that he was not an atheist as such. He did believe in God(s) but, from any practical point of view, he clearly felt that had nothing to do with us and no impact on our lives which, IMHO, makes them a somewhat redundant part of the universe.

So how DO atheists view dying? Are we all into the Kubler-Ross model (which by the by does nothave a lot of research and evidence to support it but it has almost passed into folklore)?



This rather came together as a thought when one of the posters on another site announced he was dying. Apart from rushing out to make a will I did start to think about dying. Given there is no heaven, no afterlife, I won't be reincarnated as a hero, a lion, a worm ... basically NOTHING then how do I actually feel about death. It is really going to piss me off. I want to live forever because there is so much that I do not know which is why I have just applied to do a mathematics degree. I tell myself there is time. Actuaries tell me that also. I should live ten years if I am sensible but the odds are against more than twenty.

Theists can comfort them selves with their belief. Elsewhere I have put forward this as a reason for the development of spirituality and religion. A psychological crutch to enable developing humanity to get up in the morning. If life, from an intellectual point of view (you get born; take some shit for a while then die) is rather futile this crutch becomes crucial.

So how do we deal with the concept? Epicurus says we shouldn't worry about it. Kubler-Ross says we don't worry about it until it become in your face real and then we go through a rationalisation process.

As atheists what are we going to do?

Lack of understanding is no excuse for demented comments.

You deveate from the meaning of anything put before you, please read and then get someone to explain the implications.

Deviants are still God's creatures.

Discuss. Time allowed 10 minutes. 10 marks possible.

Didn't know this was still going bellatori, I really couldn't give a damn mate.

Dan Fante wrote:Those bacon sandwiches are to die for.

Bacon and cooked human is meant to taste very similar.

:->>

Heretic

I will take your word on that Heretic,any particular part.

stuart torr wrote:I will take your word on that Heretic,any particular part.

Good morning Stuart, I'm off to the dentist in a minute so please forgive my disappearance in a moment.

When I used to deal with bacon it was primarily from the side but the prime pieces were from the back. So may be an idea to keep an eye behind you (it might be difficult to convince your friends that you you're not paranoid though).

:->>

Bye for now.

Heretic

Morning Heretic my friend,I hope all went well at the dentist for you, you don't half make me laugh mate even after no sleep   

There are deviants in every walk of life because all you have to do to be a deviant is deveate.

Heretic knows of my present medical condition PG,where I have not been able to sleep for a few weeks now and even my gp has been of no real assistance. So i'm having to wait to see my neurologist in march.

stuart torr wrote:Heretic knows of my present medical condition PG,where I have not been able to sleep for a few weeks now and even my gp has been of no real assistance. So i'm having to wait to see my neurologist in march.

I am crawling the walls if I can't sleep for one night. Chronic Pain + No Sleep = Bear with sore arse.

I think that's the kind of algebra that everyone understands.

:->>

Heretic

Irrespective of all other considerations I have the deepest sympathy for anyone suffering in any way and hope you find a solution.

Thank-you PG

Hi Heretic, well I actually thought I'D found the solution to my sleep problem after speaking with my neurologist,but alas it came back last night for some unknown reason.Managed to get to sleep at 5am and slept on and off til midday,just hope it hasn't started as before.

stuart torr wrote:Hi Heretic, well I actually thought I'D found the solution to my sleep problem after speaking with my neurologist,but alas it came back last night for some unknown reason.Managed to get to sleep at 5am and slept on and off til midday,just hope it hasn't started as before.

I wish I had an answer for you. A self-hypnosis disc might help. If you PM me your address I can send you one.

Heretic

If you PM me your address I can send you one.

Good idea. Please move your private discussion off this thread and onto the personal messaging system. Thank you.  

I had one go at self hypnosis 2years ago Heretic when it bothered me a bit before and also an hypnotist tried but the dr then said I will not let my mind and body shut off as my mind is over active like it was when i was younger. You can have my address by all means in case anthing comes to mind

got your message Ivan.  

stuart torr. Thanks. I'm sure you understand that too much digression can destroy a discussion.
 
Richard Dawkins' answer to this question was that as he'd had children, his "demise" didn't matter, since his genes would go on after him. Also, that being dead will be no different from having been previously unborn.
 
I can identify with all of that. As an atheist, I'm not afraid of death. I am, however, worried about what the process of dying might entail.

Perhaps seeking the why and the wherefore of life might help.

rid·dle 2 (rĭd′l)
n.
1. A question or statement requiring thought to answer or understand; a conundrum.

2. One that is perplexing; an enigma.

v.rid·dled, rid·dling, rid·dles

v.tr.
To solve or explain.

v.intr.
1. To propound or solve riddles.

2. To speak in riddles.

[Middle English redels, from Old English rǣdels]

Ivan i'm not afraid of any of it,I can only take it come what may.

stuart torr wrote:Ivan i'm not afraid of any of it,I can only take it come what may.

Fear doesn't matter in the slightest, whether you fear or not doesn't change the facts on the ground. How you handle your fear makes all the difference both to yourself and to those around you.

Heretic

Like I say when I go to bed at night Heretic,if I wake up in the morning that's another day to face,and well that's another day over,and closer to coffin.

stuart torr wrote:Like I say when I go to bed at night Heretic,if I wake up in the morning that's another day to face,and well that's another day over,and closer to coffin.

Sorry Stu but if you think like that then you are dead already. Think instead of the wonderful bundle of joy that visits you on Sundays and how one more day brings Sunday closer. It's very easy when you see yourself as having no stake in society to think of yourself as worthless, no job, minimal income, to sick to even do even voluntary work. The fact is that you have a value that is far greater than any value you can assign to yourself and that is in the lives of everybody you interact with whether you know them well or not. Immortality comes from all those tiny interactions, a word of advice, a kiss on the cheek, the push of a swing, even whether you buy The Times rather than The Guardian. Everything we do affects the future, some times more importantly and other times less so.

Whatever happens get closer to one more Sunday and one more Sunday because Sundays might mean everything to someone.

Heretic

In youth one thinks of the future and all the good things that lie ahead, as one gets older ahead appears shorter and what lies ahead not so attractive, unless of course you are a Christian and the prospect then appears brighter than ever.

The one thing that is absolutely certain is that we are not going to have to deal with our inevitable demise. Will it to your heirs, do!

polyglide wrote:unless of course you are a Christian and the prospect then appears brighter than ever.

Woohoo! Eternal slavery to a megalomaniacal and dictatorial god! Goodbye free will, hello automaton! Yeehaw!

Now you know why I am an atheist Shirina.

polyglide wrote:In youth one thinks of the future and all the good things that lie ahead, as one gets older ahead appears shorter and what lies ahead not so attractive, unless of course you are a Christian and the prospect then appears brighter than ever.

You need to work on that sales pitch.

THE TRUTH DOES NOT NEED A PITCH, JUST AN UNDERSTANDING.

No need to shout.
Anyway, you miss my point. You were basically selling Christianity (NB: NOT LITERALLY SELLING IT) on the basis your faith allows you to look forward to death. What a dismal outlook.

As, as good a Christian as I can be, my adea of life as it is, is, I would like to be around when God deals with Satan, I have no qualms about suffering in the meanwhile, Iam not actually afraid of death, I have seen it in many ways, however, I do enjoy life in the ways still left open to me and would like to continue doing so.

Still not really winning me over.

Dan I am trying my best to be as honest as all my experiences suggest I should be.

polyglide wrote: I have no qualms about suffering in the meanwhile

This is why, at the end of the day, Christianity is immoral.

Shirina wrote:

polyglide wrote: I have no qualms about suffering in the meanwhile

This is why, at the end of the day, Christianity is immoral.

No - Jesus said sensible things, mixed up with notions drawn from the way people thought at that time, and I reckon he and Paul were stumbling towards the key idea that man was what 'God' was, man projected onto eternity. It is the capitalist crooks who pretend to 'believe' who are immoral.

Man suffers because of man and there is no one else but himself to blame.

polyglide wrote:Man suffers because of man and there is no one else but himself to blame.

Agreed.

polyglide wrote:In youth one thinks of the future and all the good things that lie ahead, as one gets older ahead appears shorter and what lies ahead not so attractive, unless of course you are a Christian and the prospect then appears brighter than ever.

I'd rather cope with reality than delude myself, at least I'll have squeezed the juice out of this life and not deluded myself that here is something else. Try it, I can guarantee it's far more rewarding than you think.

I have enjoyed both joy and unhappyness in my life and lived life to the full, experienced the good in people and the bad but the one thing that has been constant is my belief in God which has made the almost unbearable bearable.

Try it.

I understand what you mean PG, but one thing that has been constant in my life apart from the unkindness of ex partners,is the kindness of strangers on some forums that I have been on and those are the people that i'd like to meet in life to say hello andd shake hands with.