How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

First topic message reminder :

Epicurus tried to tell us not to worry about death saying...

“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.”

which is often summed up by the very pithy

“I was not, I was, I am not, I care not. (Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo)”

The first quote is part of a much longer quote from a surviving letter he wrote.

“Accustom yourself to the belief that death is of no concern to us, since all good and evil lie in sensation and sensation ends with death. Therefore the true belief that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life happy, not by adding to it an infinite time, but by taking away the desire for immortality. For there is no reason why the man who is thoroughly assured that there is nothing to fear in death should find anything to fear in life. So, too, he is foolish who says that he fears death, not because it will be painful when it comes, but because the anticipation of it is painful; for that which is no burden when it is present gives pain to no purpose when it is anticipated. Death, the most dreaded of evils, is therefore of no concern to us; for while we exist death is not present, and when death is present we no longer exist. It is therefore nothing either to the living or to the dead since it is not present to the living, and the dead no longer are.”

It has to be born in mind that he was not an atheist as such. He did believe in God(s) but, from any practical point of view, he clearly felt that had nothing to do with us and no impact on our lives which, IMHO, makes them a somewhat redundant part of the universe.

So how DO atheists view dying? Are we all into the Kubler-Ross model (which by the by does nothave a lot of research and evidence to support it but it has almost passed into folklore)?



This rather came together as a thought when one of the posters on another site announced he was dying. Apart from rushing out to make a will I did start to think about dying. Given there is no heaven, no afterlife, I won't be reincarnated as a hero, a lion, a worm ... basically NOTHING then how do I actually feel about death. It is really going to piss me off. I want to live forever because there is so much that I do not know which is why I have just applied to do a mathematics degree. I tell myself there is time. Actuaries tell me that also. I should live ten years if I am sensible but the odds are against more than twenty.

Theists can comfort them selves with their belief. Elsewhere I have put forward this as a reason for the development of spirituality and religion. A psychological crutch to enable developing humanity to get up in the morning. If life, from an intellectual point of view (you get born; take some shit for a while then die) is rather futile this crutch becomes crucial.

So how do we deal with the concept? Epicurus says we shouldn't worry about it. Kubler-Ross says we don't worry about it until it become in your face real and then we go through a rationalisation process.

As atheists what are we going to do?

I understand exactly what you are saying Shirina, and from where you are coming from so to speak. I use to be a nurse and had to care for patients very similar to your aunt, is she not on any medication love?

Bellatori wrote:

polyglide wrote:...the point is if thre is no life beyond out earthy existance then we might just as well not have existed.

Now you approach wisdom. This is why improved intelligence may not be a survival attribute. Dinosaurs lasted millions of years whilst the biggest mammal was the size of a shrew without the need for intelligence. I posted elsewhere about the 'Why should we get up in the morning' reason that religion developed along with intelligence. It is a survival attribute. But it is like a tail used for swinging through the trees and for balance. There comes a point in the development of a species where things become vestigial e.g. appendix. They are no longer required. This is the position of religion now. In fact I would posit that its influence is actually malign on the  survival of homo sapiens.

Very interesting, and of course just like an appendix religion can be a dangerous festering puss filled time bomb that's a mortal danger to the hosts. However unlike the appendix it can just as likely kill others as well. Any chance we can produce a quick cure? Some shots maybe, injections not liquor, or maybe some deep therapy?  

If it's shots i've got the gun, a 44 magnum dirty stu.  

god make goods the jus dies andd gos to hell

One thing is for sure igbo, go on spell checker as you are awful. 

Did you think that acting thick you would not get caught out igbo/spin.  

stuart torr wrote:Did you think that acting thick you would not get caught out igbo/spin.  

Seems to of gone quiet - that is not like 'spin' of old is it?

Heretic

No Heretic it isn't, but apparently he has been going on every forum just lately,except the main one if you get what I mean. to try and prove how clever he is,think thats why he is avoiding the big one.

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote: Very interesting, and of course just like an appendix religion can be a dangerous festering puss filled time bomb that's a mortal danger to the hosts. However unlike the appendix it can just as likely kill others as well. Any chance we can produce a quick cure? Some shots maybe, injections not liquor, or maybe some deep therapy?  

"....  a dangerous festering puss filled time bomb ...."

The RSPCA have been informed.

 :yeahthat:  

Well Heretic spin is back on the big forum. Alas I do not know when to take on my old adversary any more. Posters turn against me if I am too harsh on him, what do I do let him walk all over me?.Admittedly he does not seem like the spin of old, I just do not know what to do. 

stuart torr wrote:Well Heretic spin is back on the big forum. Alas I do not know when to take on my old adversary any more. Posters turn against me if I am too harsh on him, what do I do let him walk all over me?.Admittedly he does not seem like the spin of old, I just do not know what to do. 

I would give him enough rope to hang himself. If you were to come across as very gentle while he returned to form I suspect (that's a nice word 'suspect') that he would go for the jugular and you might find people coming to your defence. I tactic out of many possible but it might be worth a shot - one thing that stands against it is the way people perceive this last incident.

Another thing you might try is to apologise, whether you feel in the wrong or not, people might then expect a positive reaction from spin. If he gives it then all's to the good, if he doesn't then you are no longer the villain. It sometimes takes a strong man to allow himself to appear weak.

Heretic

Or maybe some real attention to the facts rather than paralogism you favour.

Or maybe some real attention to the facts

I believe every science academy on the planet recognises common ancestry as an evidence based fact, please pay attention.

polyglide wrote:Or maybe some real attention to the facts rather than paralogism you favour.

You're projecting.

Thank-you Heretic, very wise words from the pool.

No Shirina, what I am trying to do is save your soul.

 

Stu, you should stop banging your head, sorry, carry on it may do you some good.

polyglide wrote:Or maybe some real attention to the facts rather than paralogism you favour.

Paralogism = a piece of illogical or fallacious reasoning, especially one which appears superficially logical or which the reasoner believes to be logical.

Can you not say what you want to say without raiding a thesaurus?

Sorry but I cannot see which post you are answering.

Heretic

I have no need to raid anything, I do not believe in theft of any kind.

We all know you are joking, only you do not.  

Now you are a mind reader as well as a delinquent.

Well PGtips you do not get many delinquents at my age, oh dear how old do you think I am seriously now.

stuart torr wrote:Well PGtips you do not get many delinquents at my age, oh dear how old do you think I am seriously now.

I'd have a guess at 53.

:->>

Heretic

Now Heretic you have been looking at what i've written on the other site have you not ha,ha.   

stuart torr wrote:Now Heretic you have been looking at what i've written on the other site have you not ha,ha.   

Try looking to the left, just under your Avatar.

Heretic

Given everything away, especially for a delinquent.   

Now that Peter has died I was wondering what people are thinking. I have been reminded of all the losses I have had, not a great number but more than enough, and all the emotions and thoughts that I experienced are rekindled and experienced anew. I really do not want to go to any more funerals and something that worries me is that I am the oldest of my family left alive and I know that people are looking at me and thinking I will be next though they would never say that aloud.

Extinction of all that I am seems so final. I can understand why religions started in order to exploit this final act (and why they are despicable for doing so).

Heretic

polyglide wrote:I have no need to raid anything, I do not believe in theft of any kind.

I hate to break it to you but theft does exist.

As usual you do not understand the implications or the relevance or meaning of the written word as accepted by any intelligent person.

polyglide wrote:As usual you do not understand the implications or the relevance or meaning of the written word as accepted by any intelligent person.

I knew your reply would be along those lines.
Incidentally, it was a joke.

Other peoples deaths are a reminder of our own mortality Heretic, we all have to go sometime my friend. As each day passes we get a day closer, I am in the same position as yourself but a few years younger.

stuart torr wrote:Other peoples deaths are a reminder of our own mortality Heretic, we all have to go sometime my friend. As each day passes we get a day closer, I am in the same position as yourself but a few years younger.

I gave up smoking about two months after my Wife died and last year I went down from 17 stone to 13 stone but have since put most of it back on. I will be targeting that again next year. These activities to protect my longevity is not for any desire to extend my life for it's own sake but because I realised my children would need me well into the future as they don't have their Mother whom I always thought would survive me by quite a large margin. I am pleased that my brothers and sisters have taken an interest in my children in the last few years as it gives me some reassurance for the future if I'm not about. I have always seen myself as an independent sort of person but it's surprising how people rally around when they're needed.

All is well with the world, apart from the obvious, so I cannot complain.

Heretic

Take care my friend.

stuart torr wrote:Take care my friend.

We all need to do that, careful is sometimes everything.

Heretic

[quote="polyglide"]No Shirina, what I am trying to do is save your soul.[/quote]

I find this statement to be the epitome of arrogance. Who are you to try to save anyone's 'soul'? It's not your job! Your job is to love all people as Christ commanded. That's it. Anything more than that, you are in the remit of God's responsibilities. Judgement, and you have plenty of that and bearing false witness (promoting scientific untruths when your knowledge of science is next to nil). These are 2 things that make a mockery of your Christianity. Your derision of the atheists on this forum is a test of your faith yet the best you can come up with is insults. You demonstrate no love or kindness on this forum.

Are you sure you're a 'real' Christian? I don't see it.

Heretic wrote:...I can understand why religions started in order to exploit this final act...

I cannot remember who, on the Amazon site, recommended "The Faith Instinct by Nicholas Wade" but I found it to be a very good and thought provoking primer on the origin of religion. What seems clear to me now is that religion has lost its original evolutionary role which was important for social cohesion and has now, as I once stated before, like the appendix and a prehensile tail, rather lost its role and seems to have found an alternative niche which is neither beneficial nor of survival value.

As I look at religion I fear that for reasons of politics, China and Russia will step back and allow a war between Muslim and Christians which seems to me almost inevitable the way things are going. They will find, however that eventually the drive for world dominance by Islam will not be sated by trying to destroy the west and their initial compliance will be their undoing. I am only glad that I will not have to live to see the final conflagration.

Bellatori wrote:

Heretic wrote:...I can understand why religions started in order to exploit this final act...

I cannot remember who, on the Amazon site, recommended "The Faith Instinct by Nicholas Wade" but I found it to be a very good and thought provoking primer on the origin of religion.

I cannot yet find it in my local library (piratebay) but have found another book on the topic Supernatural Selection HOW RELIGION EVOLVED Matt J. Rossano . Given my interest in religion I find it incredible I haven't sought out something on this before now. The blurb on my link (that you will need bittorrent software such as utorrent to download) says:

[The existence of God has been part of human discussion for centuries. Believers point to evidence of design and rationality as convincing proofs of divine presence. Rossano, head of the psychology department at Southeastern Louisiana University, looks instead to notions borrowed from anthropology and sociology to construct a purely nonreligious view of the evolution of religion. Favoring science over sentiment, he takes great comfort in the idea that £pieces of our evolutionary puzzle are now falling into place.¥ He suggests that religion, which he describes as an £evolutionary adaptation,¥ arises from intergroup competition and is the result of the inevitable struggles that occur when groups compete for the same prizes (in this case, adherents to their message). To true believers, this is a grim assessment of the religious notions that underlie their lives. Casual readers will find this book tough going and, in some instances, overly technical. But with patience, most will find food for thought. ]

Until I can find a copy of the book you mention I will start here. Thankyou.

Heretic

Sorry but I don't know the site's attitude to bittorrent as I don't know where the servers are located. If in the states I think I'm ok, but if UK based I might of stood on toes there and would understand deletion of my last post.

Heretic

Bellatori, how do you know that you will not live to see the final conflagration,? It may happen sooner than you think my friend.