How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

First topic message reminder :

Epicurus tried to tell us not to worry about death saying...

“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.”

which is often summed up by the very pithy

“I was not, I was, I am not, I care not. (Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo)”

The first quote is part of a much longer quote from a surviving letter he wrote.

“Accustom yourself to the belief that death is of no concern to us, since all good and evil lie in sensation and sensation ends with death. Therefore the true belief that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life happy, not by adding to it an infinite time, but by taking away the desire for immortality. For there is no reason why the man who is thoroughly assured that there is nothing to fear in death should find anything to fear in life. So, too, he is foolish who says that he fears death, not because it will be painful when it comes, but because the anticipation of it is painful; for that which is no burden when it is present gives pain to no purpose when it is anticipated. Death, the most dreaded of evils, is therefore of no concern to us; for while we exist death is not present, and when death is present we no longer exist. It is therefore nothing either to the living or to the dead since it is not present to the living, and the dead no longer are.”

It has to be born in mind that he was not an atheist as such. He did believe in God(s) but, from any practical point of view, he clearly felt that had nothing to do with us and no impact on our lives which, IMHO, makes them a somewhat redundant part of the universe.

So how DO atheists view dying? Are we all into the Kubler-Ross model (which by the by does nothave a lot of research and evidence to support it but it has almost passed into folklore)?



This rather came together as a thought when one of the posters on another site announced he was dying. Apart from rushing out to make a will I did start to think about dying. Given there is no heaven, no afterlife, I won't be reincarnated as a hero, a lion, a worm ... basically NOTHING then how do I actually feel about death. It is really going to piss me off. I want to live forever because there is so much that I do not know which is why I have just applied to do a mathematics degree. I tell myself there is time. Actuaries tell me that also. I should live ten years if I am sensible but the odds are against more than twenty.

Theists can comfort them selves with their belief. Elsewhere I have put forward this as a reason for the development of spirituality and religion. A psychological crutch to enable developing humanity to get up in the morning. If life, from an intellectual point of view (you get born; take some shit for a while then die) is rather futile this crutch becomes crucial.

So how do we deal with the concept? Epicurus says we shouldn't worry about it. Kubler-Ross says we don't worry about it until it become in your face real and then we go through a rationalisation process.

As atheists what are we going to do?

I understand what you mean PG, but one thing that has been constant in my life apart from the unkindness of ex partners,is the kindness of strangers on some forums that I have been on and those are the people that i'd like to meet in life to say hello andd shake hands with.

polyglide wrote:I have enjoyed both joy and unhappyness in my life and lived life to the full, experienced the good in people and the bad but the one thing that has been constant is my belief in God which has made the almost unbearable bearable.

Try it.  

Have. Honesty is better - try it!

I doubt very much if you could recognise anything with your dim view of life.

PG,as a disabled person and living on my own too,you should see the council tax that I have to pay this year,your lord could not lend me a few bob could he so that I can afford food?

You have my deapest sympathy, I have just returned from holding a dance for 40 disabled persons of varying ages, which my wife and I do every Tuesday.

When people moan about anything I invite them to the dance and so they can see they have nothing to moan about.

I give to charities that I feel will use the procedes in a proper manner.

I am not poor nor rich, other than in the latter case, when knowing God you cannot be any richer.

The wealth of some people is enough to make even the most unsypathetic person sick to the teeth.

Man has departed so far from what would have given him a perfect life that he has to continually fight to combat all the ills he has caused.

I will pray that God will see your needs and act according to the circumstances.

polyglide wrote:You have my deapest sympathy, I have just returned from holding a dance for 40 disabled persons of varying ages, which my wife and I do every Tuesday.

When people moan about anything I invite them to the dance and so they can see they have nothing to moan about.

I give to charities that I feel will use the procedes in a proper manner.

I am not poor nor rich, other than in the latter case, when knowing God you cannot be any richer.

The wealth of some people is enough to make even the most unsypathetic person sick to the teeth.

Man has departed so far from what would have given him a perfect life that he has to continually fight to combat all the ills he has caused.

I will pray that God will see your needs and act according to the circumstances.

Better to fight, like Jesus, to overthrow this filth!

The world is too far gone, there are not enough people who care.

Those who fight, fight for their own ends and give no thought to anything else.

Those who believe in God fight with words that mainly fall on deaf ears.

I cannot see any future, irrespective of any other consideration, for mankind at all in the long term, he has strayed too far from what is right.

polyglide wrote:
Those who believe in God fight with words that mainly fall on deaf ears.

Totally rather than mainly in the case of prayers.

Totally when it is anything to do with the bible too in my case Norm

It is folly to deny that which you cannot prove to be wrong.

PG,everybody who has ever read the bible knows that genesis is totally false to start with,and at least 99% of the rest of it was written by people who were not there when these things happened and has any body seen god? please tell me who has because they will go in the history books.

polyglide wrote:It is folly to deny that which you cannot prove to be wrong.

The assumption one can draw from this is you think it is not folly to believe in something which cannot be proven.   

Of course it is not folly, it is what life is all about, sorting the truth from the evolutionist nonsense.

So you have seen god then PG, blimey which news channel was it on as I must have missed it,do tell me please.

I have seen God's works and have seen the Devils works and I know which I prefer.

What is gods national insurance number then PG,and satans as they cannot work without one,or they will not get their pensions will they.

The devil has all the best tunes.

You sing Dan and I will play.   

One day you will sing another tune.

Just watch you don't snap your banjo string.

His banjo only has one string Dan cos he plays the same tune none-stop does he not,it's beginning to get boring after a while. yang yang yang yang.  

One string is better than none.

PG,why do you really go on so,as I've got an eight stringed guitar.

Then learn to play it properly.

I will when I have time, on my deathbed.

Then I hope it is well into the future.

However, I suggest, How Great Though Art, as a fitting end.

polyglide wrote:Atheists will have no choice, the chance is here and now and not later.

so this little finite life draws an infinite punishment. That notion has no justice or common sense to it.

You may learn something from this clip.


Is your belief in hell hurting you and your child?

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/third-metric-belief-in-hell/530cc84c78c90a1a6400009b

The bible indicates that the vast majority of us will end in hell. Most of us are on the wide road to hell and only a few of us will be on the narrow road to heaven.

Even the most righteous of us would need to be rather egotistical to think that we somehow made the grade for heaven. Even if we did, I cannot see most of us keeping our sanity too long as we watch our family members, husband and wives, --- not to forget our own children, --- in purposeless torture while we bask in heaven with God. I do not think the human nature could maintain any kind of happiness through that. Perhaps you do.

Do you feel comfortable teaching that doctrine to your children and telling them that they and most of their friends will end in hell?

Is your belief in hell hurting you and those around you?

Do you think that your belief is hurting you?

If you teach it to your child, do you think it is hurting him or her?

Regards
DL

GREATEST, I teach my child what she is being taught in school, when she asks me what I believe I say tell her the truth no gods no heaven no hell it is up to her to decide.

stuart torr wrote:GREATEST, I teach my child what she is being taught in school, when she asks me what I believe I say tell her the truth no gods no heaven no hell it is up to her to decide.

A good practice. I find the indoctrination of children to be child abuse. Way too many times have I heard of the damage adults feel they were put through as children.

I wrote this and might do an O P on it.

Is your belief in hell hurting you and your child?

http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/third-metric-belief-in-hell/530cc84c78c90a1a6400009b

The bible indicates that the vast majority of us will end in hell. Most of us are on the wide road to hell and only a few of us will be on the narrow road to heaven.

Even the most righteous of us would need to be rather egotistical to think that we somehow made the grade for heaven. Even if we did, I cannot see most of us keeping our sanity too long as we watch our family members, husband and wives, --- not to forget our own children, --- in purposeless torture while we bask in heaven with God. I do not think the human nature could maintain any kind of happiness through that. Perhaps you do.

Do you feel comfortable teaching that doctrine to your children and telling them that they and most of their friends will end in hell?

Is your belief in hell hurting you and those around you?

Do you think that your belief is hurting you?

If you teach it to your child, do you think it is hurting him or her?

Regards
DL

Oops forgive the duplicate.

I forgot where I was and am heading for the coffee pot.

Regards
DL

My mother was a staunch Apostolic, a pastor used to stay at our house on his rounds.

He used to terrify me with hell fire etc;

As I grew up I thought this is not right.

So I considered the alternatives to what life is realy all about.

i considered evolution and on all the evidence regarding actual creation dismissed it.

The only alternative was that an intelligence of a great order must be involved.

The Old Testament to me, after due consideration is not relative to our times, as the birth of Jesus indicates.

After carefull consideration of all that has happened in my life and all the experiences I have had I have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus came to save the human race.

THE way I teach is totally different to anybody else rest assured.

polyglide wrote:My mother was a staunch Apostolic, a pastor used to stay at our house on his rounds.

He used to terrify me with hell fire etc;

As I grew up I thought this is not right.

So I considered the alternatives to what life is realy all about.

i considered evolution and on all the evidence regarding actual creation dismissed it.

The only alternative was that an intelligence of a great order must be involved.

The Old Testament to me, after due consideration is not relative to our times, as the birth of Jesus indicates.

After carefull consideration of all that has happened in my life and all the experiences I have had I have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus came to save the human race.

IOW, Stockholm syndrome made you love one who would be synonymous with Hitler of Stalin junior.
Jesus is worse because if you believe in the trinity, the one who would not stone a prostitute used genocide on many innocent children and babies.

You forget where the concept of hell came from. The N. T..

Regards
DL

I do not believe in a literal hell fire.

It is a means of describing a very unpleasant state that no one should put themselves in a position to experience.

polyglide wrote:I do not believe in a literal hell fire.

It is a means of describing a very unpleasant state that no one should put themselves in a position to experience.

I do not blame you for scrapping half of your theology and making up your own version and religion.

You make a piss poor apologist. That is why I tend to ignore you. Every time you feel the heat, you change your theology. Pathetic.

Regards
DL

You mean it is problamatic for you to hear the truth.

polyglide wrote:I do not believe in a literal hell fire.

It is a means of describing a very unpleasant state that no one should put themselves in a position to experience.

Sounds like Sunderland.

polyglide wrote:You mean it is problamatic for you to hear the truth.

Regards
DL

2/10 barely reached that sorry.

It takes allsorts.

What liquorice