How are us atheists going to deal with our own inevitable demise?

First topic message reminder :

Epicurus tried to tell us not to worry about death saying...

“Death is nothing to us, since when we are, death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.”

which is often summed up by the very pithy

“I was not, I was, I am not, I care not. (Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo)”

The first quote is part of a much longer quote from a surviving letter he wrote.

“Accustom yourself to the belief that death is of no concern to us, since all good and evil lie in sensation and sensation ends with death. Therefore the true belief that death is nothing to us makes a mortal life happy, not by adding to it an infinite time, but by taking away the desire for immortality. For there is no reason why the man who is thoroughly assured that there is nothing to fear in death should find anything to fear in life. So, too, he is foolish who says that he fears death, not because it will be painful when it comes, but because the anticipation of it is painful; for that which is no burden when it is present gives pain to no purpose when it is anticipated. Death, the most dreaded of evils, is therefore of no concern to us; for while we exist death is not present, and when death is present we no longer exist. It is therefore nothing either to the living or to the dead since it is not present to the living, and the dead no longer are.”

It has to be born in mind that he was not an atheist as such. He did believe in God(s) but, from any practical point of view, he clearly felt that had nothing to do with us and no impact on our lives which, IMHO, makes them a somewhat redundant part of the universe.

So how DO atheists view dying? Are we all into the Kubler-Ross model (which by the by does nothave a lot of research and evidence to support it but it has almost passed into folklore)?



This rather came together as a thought when one of the posters on another site announced he was dying. Apart from rushing out to make a will I did start to think about dying. Given there is no heaven, no afterlife, I won't be reincarnated as a hero, a lion, a worm ... basically NOTHING then how do I actually feel about death. It is really going to piss me off. I want to live forever because there is so much that I do not know which is why I have just applied to do a mathematics degree. I tell myself there is time. Actuaries tell me that also. I should live ten years if I am sensible but the odds are against more than twenty.

Theists can comfort them selves with their belief. Elsewhere I have put forward this as a reason for the development of spirituality and religion. A psychological crutch to enable developing humanity to get up in the morning. If life, from an intellectual point of view (you get born; take some shit for a while then die) is rather futile this crutch becomes crucial.

So how do we deal with the concept? Epicurus says we shouldn't worry about it. Kubler-Ross says we don't worry about it until it become in your face real and then we go through a rationalisation process.

As atheists what are we going to do?

Bellatori, how do you know that you will not live to see the final conflagration,? It may happen sooner than you think my friend.

No man knows how the end of the earth as we know it will be, the one thing for absolute certainty is that it will.

If you follow the Christian faith then you will not know the time or the actual means but all the signs are that God is not far off being able to deal with all evil.

The one thing all atheists do not take into consideration is Satan.

Every time the evolutionists think they have the answer something turns up, as it has recently to disprove their once certainties, {in their opinion] and they then come up with other theories and take no note of their former theories of which they claimed were facts.

polyglide wrote:N

The one thing all atheists do not take into consideration is Satan.

A moment's thought shows this to be entirely false. Atheists do not take into consideration Satan, Jehovah, Shiva, Viracocha, Odin, Offler, Beelzebub or any other supernatural mythical creature. A further moment might indicate why.

polyglide wrote:No man knows how the end of the earth as we know it will be, the one thing for absolute certainty is that it will.

If you follow the Christian faith then you will not know the time or the actual means but all the signs are that God is not far off being able to deal with all evil.

The one thing all atheists do not take into consideration is Satan.

Every time the evolutionists think they have the answer something turns up, as it has recently to disprove their once certainties, {in their opinion] and they then come up with other theories and take no note of their former theories of which they claimed were facts.

Christianity is no different.

Science, at least, discards old theories for better theories and works on a consensus.

Christianity has thousands of "theories" about its own faith, but instead of discarding old theories for new and better theories, Christianity breaks up into different denominations. Thus we currently have some 30,000 different Christian denominations of various sizes all claiming to have the right and true idea of how to worship God, how to get into Heaven, what the afterlife is like, etc. etc.

Some 30,000 different theories and ideas all running concurrently with each other in this religious maelstrom of chaos.

Fortunately science doesn't work that way, so we don't have denominations that argue geocentric universes with heliocentric theorists who themselves are arguing with people who believe nothing is orbiting anything (yes, they do exist). Science hashes out the differences and eventually comes to a consensus so we aren't forced to arbitrarily pick which scientific denomination has the right of it.

Best to look at the mess in your church before looking at the mess in my laboratory.

polyglide wrote:No man knows how the end of the earth as we know it will be, the one thing for absolute certainty is that it will.

If you follow the Christian faith then you will not know the time or the actual means but all the signs are that God is not far off being able to deal with all evil.

The one thing all atheists do not take into consideration is Satan.

Every time the evolutionists think they have the answer something turns up, as it has recently to disprove their once certainties, {in their opinion] and they then come up with other theories and take no note of their former theories of which they claimed were facts.

New year, same old shite.

Happy New Year, by the way

One thing is for sure regarding the end of the world, if and when it comes that is, I will be long gone,and kicked my bucket. Heaven and hell you can keep them, me I will just be ashes scattered wherever.

As far as I am concerned many Churches have lost all credibility.

They have compromised on nearly all aspects of their stated beliefs in order to maintain the membership of those who want to make things as easy and as carefree for all, irrespective of any other consideration.

These are not true Christians.

Christians will go to many churches available to them these days due to the number that have closed in recent years, soon there will be only so many available the more they close as the reduction in the belief in christianity dwindles too.

polyglide wrote:As far as I am concerned many Churches have lost all credibility.

They have compromised on nearly all aspects of their stated beliefs in order to maintain the membership of those who want to make things as easy and as carefree for all, irrespective of any other consideration.

These are not true Christians.

   

Which of the 41,000 or so Christian denominations represent true Christianity?

exactly Dan,could not have said it better myself.   

It is not denominations that count, it is the people who actually believe in Christianity and do their very best to abide by Christian teachings that matter and unfortunately, they are becoming less and less to the detriment of all concerned.

More b/s PG, ARE YOU FULL OF IT TODAY?

Come on Stu, think, think, think, anyone can give silly remarks, just reply in a sensible manner.

I can give many come backs that would make you cry, but I am attempting to make you realise the possibilities for a better life and future.

polyglide wrote:It is not denominations that count, it is the people who actually believe in Christianity and do their very best to abide by Christian teachings that matter and unfortunately, they are becoming less and less to the detriment of all concerned.  

Your refusal to answer yet another straightforward question is duly noted, Polly.

What exactly is the question.

Laughter is to be enjoyed at the appropriate time and not to try to mask gross stupidity and the inability to comprehend even the most simple statwements.

Yep, like I said.

I must go and give you time to contemplate your gross ignorance.

polyglide wrote:It is not denominations that count, it is the people who actually believe in Christianity and do their very best to abide by Christian teachings that matter and unfortunately, they are becoming less and less to the detriment of all concerned.  

Each of these denominations are different, if they were the same then there would be one rather than however many. The people in these denominations believe different things and since only one set of beliefs can properly be described as Christianity then all the rest are something else. I know you will say that you are in the tiny percentage that is Christian so , pray tell, what do we call all the other suckers?

You talk of abiding in Christ's teachings but in you're next breath you will say that it is not possible to live by Christ's teachings. I have said elsewhere that any truth that cannot be lived might as well be a lie and I hold this up to what you say and it might as well be a lie as it has no value.

You also seem to be saying that the effort in trying to do what cannot be done makes us better people, well if that is true we might as well move mountain to Mohammed.

Heretic

Hi Heretic, I do understand how you look at matters and at face value you may have a point or two worth considering but I consider them from a different stand point which obviously makes a difference.

To live a life without sin, [sin according to the Bible] is a vertual impossibility, in this I agree.

However, as in all such cases one can only do ones best.

God is well aware of all our circumstances and to say if you cannot do something it is a waste of time. then many things humans attempt unsuccessfully would not in the first place have taken place when in the second attempt been successful

No man will ever live without being becoming the victim of sin, Satan will see to that.

However, I cannot see how anyone can think that having a profound belief in God and living by the teachings of Christianity can do anything but good for mankind, even if along the way we all become the victims of sin.

polyglide wrote:To live a life without sin, [sin according to the Bible] is a vertual impossibility, in this I agree.

I don't think it's impossible.

All one has to do is refrain from using contraception, don't get an abortion, don't engage in homosexual acts, and reject evolution. If you do those things, you'll have a back-stage pass to Heaven.

Right?

Because those are the only things religion really concerns itself with, so ... I thought ... yeah ...

polyglide wrote:However, I cannot see how anyone can think that having a profound belief in God and living by the teachings of Christianity can do anything but good for mankind, even if along the way we all become the victims of sin.  

Cannot do anything but good for mankind? So the idea of a world being controlled by a church does not seem a bit perverse to you. How about a country? A little better but still wrong. How about a town? A whole town controlled by a church? No matter how small a group it still seems perverse to put a church in charge.

Christianity once had a whole continent under it's control, Europe and the whole place was a travesty, full of wars, full of suspicion and hatred. Christianity had so much confidence in all things that it openly persecuted, hunted and killed those that openly disagreed with it and this would probably of continued to this day if 57 articles had not been nailed to a cathedral door. But what of this 'ray of hope'? Didn't they start their own witch-hunts and so on to the current day. In The US of A there are towns effectively run by a church. What happens if an atheist moves to town and refuses to be converted? If they are employed then they will be sacked. If they run a business then they will have no customers. If they rent a home they will be asked to leave.

This is what happens when Christianity has power.

Can you still not see how anyone can think that having a profound belief in God and living by the teachings of Christianity can do anything but good for mankind?

Heretic

I would not let any church take control of anything, in every church there are those who use and abuse as well as the faithful.

If everyone was of a like mind, all for each other and no matters of jealousy and avarice or selfishness existed, there would be no neeed for any church.

This was the way God intended.

God refered to churches in a manner that is not that which is accepted today.

polyglide wrote:I would not let any church take control of anything, in every church there are those who use and abuse as well as the faithful.

So you agree that they are untrustworthy? Both the Church? And the Christians?

Too much to hope for wasn't it.

We are going to hear some nonsense about those that abuse the church not being True Christians but there being no means of identifying them in order to throw them out. The fact is that if you cannot identify them (in order to throw them out) then the rest of the world will tar all of you with the same brush. Corrupt. In cloud cuckoo land and away with the fairies.

polyglide wrote:If everyone was of a like mind, all for each other and no matters of jealousy and avarice or selfishness existed, there would be no neeed for any church.

The church obviously doesn't know what to do with greedy, jealous or greedy people and it certainly seems unable to be the catalyst for change, is that what you're telling me?

polyglide wrote:This was the way God intended.

The best laid plans 10/10

Implementation 8/10 at best.

polyglide wrote:God refered to churches in a manner that is not that which is accepted today.

So come up with a new word. One alternative chapel.

Heretic

no need to come up with a new word Heretic, there has been one in use for years, shithouses.

You are well aware of the answer to those in the Curches of today who are not there for the right reasons because you have answerd it.

In all walks of life you will find theives, liars, and those who indulge in all manner of perversions, you only have to consider our own MPs, that does not mean that the whole is corrupt nor that there should not be MPs and the same applies to all walks of life.

When I said if everyone was of a like mind, that is what I meant, not some just pretending.

Of course a true anything is trustworthy if what it involves is for the best, it is the pretenders that cause all the problems.

Time will tell and the answers will not be long in comming.

polyglide wrote:You are well aware of the answer to those in the Curches of today who are not there for the right reasons because you have answerd it.

So identify them and throw them out. It's the TV-evangelists at one end of the spectrum stealing from widows and orphans and at the other end of the scale Miss Ordinary who is only there to look for Mr Right (but more likely to find Mr Wrong). If somebody is there for the wrong reason they are likely to dissuade many many from joining and here is the difficult bit they might not know themselves that they are there for the wrong reasons.

polyglide wrote:In all walks of life you will find theives, liars, and those who indulge in all manner of perversions, you only have to consider our own MPs, that does not mean that the whole is corrupt nor that there should not be MPs and the same applies to all walks of life.

Yet when our MP's misbehave or our police we know what we need to do and are scandalised when they are not chucked out on their ear. We get really upset when they seem to get rewarded for their crimes. Yet those in the church are rarely if ever brought to book because the adverse publicity might 'damage the church'. Perhaps if the church did what was right, whether the miscreant was a pope or a layman, without being prompted by the public or press then it might retain a little bit of credibility.

polyglide wrote:When I said if everyone was of a like mind, that is what I meant, not some just pretending.

You mean the perfect (complete, entire, finished)?

polyglide wrote:Of course a true anything is trustworthy if what it involves is for the best, it is the pretenders that cause all the problems.

This is merely a truism.

polyglide wrote:Time will tell and the answers will not be long in comming.

Only taken two thousand years so far and I would not be surprised if it took another two thousand before people got so sick of waiting they burned the churches down because they felt lied to.

Heretic

He who laughs the last.

...thinks slowest.

polyglide wrote:He who laughs the last.

Dan Fante wrote:...thinks slowest.

He who laughs first ......... is a scouser.

Scouser


Heretic

But has the last laugh.

polyglide wrote:I would not let any church take control of anything, in every church there are those who use and abuse as well as the faithful.

If everyone was of a like mind, all for each other and no matters of jealousy and avarice or selfishness existed, there would be no neeed for any church.

This was the way God intended.

God refered to churches in a manner that is not that which is accepted today.

But if we were all of like mind, we would just be robotic, devoid of diversity - like a mass-produced item stamped in the same factory from the same mold.

I thought God didn't want us to be robots. Isn't that why he gave us free will? It seems rather redundant and pointless if God gave us free will to avoid making robots out of humanity while ... secretly hoping we all become robots. If that was the case, then he may as well have created humans to be mewling, praising, worshiping sycophants from the very beginning. That's what God wants anyway.

When my mother-in-law was dying she asked me 'What am I going to do? Where am I going to go?' I couldn't answer, so I shrugged, and she pointed hopefully upwards with a questioning look on her face.

I would have liked to have been able to invite round a priest who whole-heartedly believed, who could give her the last rites, because they are very beautiful whether or not one is a believer.

methought wrote:I would have liked to have been able to invite round a priest who whole-heartedly believed, who could give her the last rites, because they are very beautiful whether or not one is a believer.

To lie to the dying is a difficult issue. To offer comfort, to inform them they will be remembered, to let them know that they will continue to be loved, these are noble things to do. To tell them that they are going to heaven, Valhalla or to Nirvana when we know it doesn't exist this is so easy to want to do but it is wrong and when the truth is told we know it too.

Heretic

You can have as much diversity as possible if all carry out the diversities in a like manner and they are all in accordance with what God intended.

God did not give any restrictions on anyone, he gave them choice and man has made many errors in his choices.

The only restrictions were those God said would prove fatal.

polyglide wrote:The only restrictions were those God said would prove fatal.

I was reading just the other day about a guy who put on a cotton-wool blend shirt and died right there on the spot.

Another poor fellow was found dead after shaving off his sideburns, the razor still in his hand

Worst of all was the ghastly news concerning the depopulating of Scotland. Doctors say that millions of Scottish males were found dead wearing kilts, apparently for violating the Biblical command not to wear clothing of the opposite gender. This decree is in negotiations, however, since Scotsman claim that kilts are NOT skirts and therefore not feminine. Set to testify on the Scotsmen's behalf is an entire Roman legion wearing their blouses and miniskirts ... err, I mean the proper uniform for a Roman legionnaire. Heavenly sources say that this controversy could tie up the verdict for months. Meanwhile, relatives of the deceased are figuring out ways to preserve the millions of corpses long enough for the trial to run its course.

China is experiencing a massive food shortage as farmers across the nation dropped dead in their fields. Oddly, only farmers who planted two different crops in the same field were affected by this strange plague which doctors assure is not contagious.

Some are now suggesting that all of these cases are related - people are advised to refain from engaging in any of these behaviors because thus far they have been proven fatal 100% of the time.

No more mixed fried rice then.

Shirina wrote:

polyglide wrote:The only restrictions were those God said would prove fatal.

I was reading just the other day about a guy who put on a cotton-wool blend shirt and died right there on the spot.

Another poor fellow was found dead after shaving off his sideburns, the razor still in his hand

Worst of all was the ghastly news concerning the depopulating of Scotland. Doctors say that millions of Scottish males were found dead wearing kilts, apparently for violating the Biblical command not to wear clothing of the opposite gender. This decree is in negotiations, however, since Scotsman claim that kilts are NOT skirts and therefore not feminine. Set to testify on the Scotsmen's behalf is an entire Roman legion wearing their blouses and miniskirts ... err, I mean the proper uniform for a Roman legionnaire. Heavenly sources say that this controversy could tie up the verdict for months. Meanwhile, relatives of the deceased are figuring out ways to preserve the millions of corpses long enough for the trial to run its course.

China is experiencing a massive food shortage as farmers across the nation dropped dead in their fields. Oddly, only farmers who planted two different crops in the same field were affected by this strange plague which doctors assure is not contagious.

Some are now suggesting that all of these cases are related - people are advised to refain from engaging in any of these behaviors because thus far they have been proven fatal 100% of the time.

Those bacon sandwiches are to die for.

Lack of understanding is no excuse for demented comments.

You deveate from the meaning of anything put before you, please read and then get someone to explain the implications.