Religious fascism or just common sense?

by AwfulTruth Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:14 am

BBC Article

You may have heard of the controversy surrounding the advert that was to appear on the side of some buses, which read:

'NOT GAY! Post Gay; Ex-Gay AND Proud. GET OVER IT!'

The banning of this ad has been based on the idea that such an advert would cause widespread offence, not just to gays, but also amongst those who find this kind of ideology offensive and unacceptable.

I listened this morning to the BBC's 'This World', where two of the protagonists behind the ad, were interviewed, along with a gay vicar who was diametrically opposed to the mindset of these people. They respondents were Mike Davidson (anti-gay) from Core Issues LINK, Colin Coward (gay man), Director of Changing Attitudes LINK and Rev Lynda Rose (anti gay) from Anglican Mainstream LINK.

During the interview the vicar rightly pointed out that these people have a history of verbal abuse towards gay people, and he also took offence to their habit of attempting to talk over him, while he was supposed to be speaking.

What annoyed me the most was that the interviewer/journalist failed to question them as to whether they might actually be religious fascists. This seems to be a very common sense question: are they simply persecuting gay people because they hold fascistic, hateful, ideas about being gay and gay people? Also, it is very interesting to note that Mike Davidson has been struck-off the membership of the professional body The British Psychodrama Association. Apparently they decided he was seriously breaking their code of conduct and did not wish to be associated with views they deem as being extremist and not based on sound evidence LINK to Ex-Gay Watch.

Moreover, they believe that people who are gay become gay because they have made a moral decision to be gay, either through circumstance or through being made to be gay and so need to go straight again.

They firmly believe that the state of being gay can be cured, as it is a perversion that is an abomination to God, and that gay people can become heterosexual via therapy and repentance. Indeed, Colin Coward refuted this ideology but once again that hoary old trope, in the form of that biblical quote that all bigots hurl at you when losing the plot, was brought out of the hat. They conveniently, apparently, did not wish to bring out any of the others tropes, including the one that says its OK to stone adulterers to death and OK to have more than one wife...yawn!

I do wish I had been at that interview as I would have confronted them with what I believe is wrong with them, and not what they believe was wrong with me.

It was simply staggering how very nasty and unpleasant these people actually were and it sent shivers down my spine that people could be so offensive, so abusive and so very deluded.

Being gay is NOT an illness; it is a natural manifestation of nature mirrored throughout the animal world in which there is irrefutable proof that gay animals (animals that pair with their own gender and do not breed) perform a dynamic function within animal social groups. For example, flamingo social groups have up to 30% of same sex pairs, all of whom serve as surrogate parents for unwanted eggs. Observers have recorded female egg layers pushing eggs towards male couples (who also make nests in readiness), so that the 'gay' birds can adopt, hatch and nurture the chick inside the egg and thereby preventing the egg from dying.

WIKI
The Telegraph
Gay Animals Out of the Closet?
Psychology Today

As for being cured, well, as a lifelong gay man I can assert here, most definitely, that at NO point in my life did I ever 'choose' to be gay, or for that matter, I have never made a moral choice to become gay. It is not an optional extra or a decision open to me because I simply am what I am.

Scientific opinion clearly does not see homosexuality as a perversion, but now asserts that this state of being is actually a normal state as a variation of human nature. Sexual proclivity is essentially then, genetic. Hard-wired as being gay, or bisexual or heterosexual, is much more what the truth here is all about.

Difference is NOT a foreign country; it is merely a manifestation of the broad variety of nature's beings, including the human variety.

The real evil here, for me, is not the gay element, but actually the religious fascism element.

Religious fascism is an evil that dares not speak its name - so who really needs to get over it?

by oftenwrong Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:11 pm

Re-arrange these words into a well-known phrase or saying:

a it's teacup in all storm a

by AwfulTruth Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:32 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Re-arrange these words into a well-known phrase or saying:

a it's teacup in all storm a

It's not that, mate: its all about people being pushed around by the bullies.

What would you say if the ads were about treating men for being masculine/macho? Or if some misogynist was suggesting women should be made to dress like men? Similar vein, in any respect.

Correct me if I have not understood your missive correctly - sometimes the nuance can be lost in transit. sunny

by Shirina Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:19 pm

Well, the good news here is that the bus company refused to put those anti-gay signs on their buses. That seems to be the real controversy.

The only reason why that religious group decided to run that sign was because the gay community ran a pro-gay sign a few weeks earlier. The religious group even made their sign look identical to the pro-gay sign.

The problem is simple - something the religious group should understand. It's one thing to display a sign that supports a positive opinion about yourself and your group. It's something else entirely when you display a sign that expresses a negative opinion about someone ELSE's group.

by AwfulTruth Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:01 pm

Shirina

Good post - your points are spot on. Idea

by witchfinder Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:30 am

Organisations like "Core Issues" and "Anglican Mainstream" do have a right to their opinions in so much as if they genuinely believe that been a gay person is contrary to Christianity, then fair enough.

When these organisations go further, and begin public campaigns suggesting that gay people can be somehow reprogrammed or cured, then this is not acceptable, indeed it verges on been a hate crime.

Personaly, I am convinced that Christian organisations with such opinions are doing the cause of Christianity a great deal of harm, the majority of the British public these days are not anti-gay, most people have a gay friend(s).

Organisations such as Core Issues will attract a lot of enemies, but very little in the way of support other than those who allready support them.
If they could only realise that yet again, the two main Christian Churches in the country are hammering nails into their own coffins.

In a few years from now when another survey or census reveals its findings, some people will wonder why Church attendences are continuing to fall, and the answer is - start living in the REAL world.

by AwfulTruth Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:52 am

Witchfinder

Well said - it is such a monumental indictment on the church that is has now become one of the bastions of hate and bigotry.

The big smoking gun of evidence here is the way in which these religious homophobes go right out of their way to exact their offensive persecution campaigns that people like me, and our supporters, find so heinously offensive.

That they are oh so richly inured to the harm and offence they cause is, for me, hugely indicative of an abusive personality disorder, where the perpetrator becomes disengaged with their victims, whom having been turned by them into 'other' in their own minds, now seek to verbally attack without any thought as to the morality of what they are doing to others, just because homosexuals have been deemed fair game, and so the open season continues.

In their theatre of cruelty, reality is not their concern because their reality is essentially a warped, distorted dystopia; a bizarre and grotesque world of the hunter and the hunted - metaphysically, metaphorically and, sometimes, physically.

Indeed, their ethos is the death of justice and the championing of hate.

by polyglide Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:35 am

I cannot understand why there should be any of the contravercial material around, the law in our country gives the homosexuals the same rights as anyone else, why do they not just get on with their lives and ignore anything that does not adversely affect them instead of constantly moaning about one thing or another.

At times thay are their own worst enemy

by witchfinder Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:19 pm

polyglide

I can understand your sentiment, but I would suggest that you direct your statement NOT to homosexual people, but instead to those who constantly wish to create a problem, ie the various Christian organisations who just cannot leave people alone.

It is organisations like Anglican Mainstream which have created and caused this topical dispute, not homosexual people.

by AwfulTruth Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:18 pm

polyglide wrote:I cannot understand why there should be any of the controversial material around, the law in our country gives the homosexuals the same rights as anyone else, why do they not just get on with their lives and ignore anything that does not adversely affect them instead of constantly moaning about one thing or another.

At times thay are their own worst enemy

Polyglide

No offence, but your posts seem to clearly broadcast the notion that you are having difficulty with basic understanding, here anyway.

That you find it difficult to grasp certain concepts, viewpoints and intellectual inculcations may indicate a lack of emotional symbiosis on your part.

It also concerns me that you appear to be quite disengaged with other people's sensibilities, lack cerebral empathy and appear to be obsessed with making facile, repetitive judgements based on ignorance, misinformation and bizarre fixations with dogmatic idioms that bring nothing whatsoever to the table of discourse. confused

by polyglide Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:37 pm

It is clearly apparent that you have a problem with being homosexual, the best thing to do is accept what you are and get on with your life.

Making silly insinuations regarding other peoples opinions does your cause no good whatsoever, A homosexual is a homosexual just as a normal person is normal. Some have no problem with that and others do, thats life.

by AwfulTruth Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:48 pm

Listen, I have no problem at all with my 100% homosexuality.

It is part of me but NOT all of me. I retain the right to be a Human Rights activist. That is also a part of what I am.

Let's agree to disagree and stop this adversarial fencing.

by AwfulTruth Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:50 pm

This is a picture of the real me, by the way! I have more grey hair now.

by Adele Carlyon Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:38 pm

What's a "normal" person? Wink

by oftenwrong Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:52 pm

A question that might be more accurately answered elsewhere.

by astra Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:29 pm

What's a "normal" person?

Ask Marty Feldman that one! Very Happy

by Adele Carlyon Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:16 pm

hahaha! Abby Normal! I love young frankenstein

by AwfulTruth Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:16 pm

Normal is a man down the road in the bone yard - he died of boredom! :albino:

by Adele Carlyon Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:17 pm

I think normal is soooooooo bloody over-rated! I don't do normal! Razz

by blueturando Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:25 pm

Normal is boring....who wants to be that???? Not me!!!

by AwfulTruth Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:52 am

Agreed!

Blue, is this the view from your kitchen window? Shocked

The most interesting and intelligent people are very often the slightly eccentric ones - every time.

I am not saying that other people are boring or vacuous, just that some of us do need, even yearn and indeed need a bit of 'anti-boring' interaction on an intellectual and also on a physical level - by the 'physical' I mean physical contact like hugs, touching and stuff that is not necessarily sexual.

Having said that there is nothing wrong with good sex.

We human beings are really quite profoundly complex and we all have needs, emotions, feelings and an intellectual hinterland that needs feeding and watering, metaphorically speaking, otherwise we would all die of boredom.

Losing the will to live would be the ultimate triumph of destructive mediocrity over sentient life.

by oftenwrong Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:15 pm

Thank the Lord for providing us with superior beings to lighten our day.

by AwfulTruth Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:29 pm

:farao: Thank you my son, you will truly be seated at the side of the Almighty on the day of judgement - along with a few million others.

You will be saved! Wink

by polyglide Thu May 03, 2012 12:17 pm

A normal person is one who behaves in the manner generally accepted as normal.

An example of which I gave elsewhere.

You use a hammer to knock nails in.
You use a paint brush to paint.

That is normal.

You would not use the paint brush to Knock nails in nor the hammer to paint
that is not normal.

I trust to are intelligent enough to realise the implications, if not do not ask the quesions.

by Shirina Thu May 03, 2012 2:26 pm

A normal person is one who behaves in the manner generally accepted as normal.

So ... then no one is normal.

Because we ALL have quirks, foibles, eccentricities, and affectations that go against the grain. THAT'S what makes each human being unique.

The only way we could be truly "normal" is if we always did what everyone else is doing. Well ... is that what you do? All the time? Do you follow every fad, only watch the most popular shows, listen only to the chart topping music?

Because if you don't, you're not "normal." And you're not. No one is.

To isolate one specific thing, such as homosexuality, and say "that's bad because it's abnormal" is a ridiculous statement. Because we would then have to apply that to everything. "It's bad to actually like spinach." "It's bad to enjoy a movie everyone else thought was horrible." And I mean "bad" in a moral sense ... bad enough that people ought to be discriminated against and persecuted for liking spinach or enjoying lousy movies. Why not, right? It's abnormal.

by witchfinder Thu May 03, 2012 3:04 pm

In the United States there is the term "WASP" which means White AngoSaxon Protestant, and for some people, if you do not fit into this group, then you were regarded as been not a true American.

The term "normal" for polyglide I guess means a hetrosexual person, thereby insinuating that homosexual people are not normal people, perhaps polyglide feels that athiests, black people and Muslims are not normal people too.

Stand back and have a good long look at yourself, see how bigoted you realy are.

by oftenwrong Thu May 03, 2012 5:08 pm

I blame those pictures of shining Angels and glowing Christians which they used to hand out in Sunday School, for an illusion of the ideal life.

by Shirina Thu May 03, 2012 11:29 pm

glowing Christians

Oh so that's how the rapture will happen ... nuclear holocaust. When all the Christians get to heaven after being irradiated by 40 megaton thermo-nuclear weapons, they'll be glowing like a light bulb. Cool

by polyglide Fri May 04, 2012 11:23 am

And I was begining to think Shirina had at least a bit of common sense
until such remarks, as no one is normal, this a typical response from those who are not normal and wish to hide the fact.

by oftenwrong Fri May 04, 2012 12:32 pm

'ere. 'oo you callin' normal?

Religious fascism or just common sense? Big_head

by blueturando Fri May 04, 2012 1:13 pm

And I was begining to think Shirina had at least a bit of common sense
until such remarks, as no one is normal, this a typical response from those who are not normal and wish to hide the fact

What is Normal Polyglide???? Everyones normal is different to others

I find people believing in the fairy tales that is religion as being Abnormal, but you would disagree.....Please define NORMAL to us

by sickchip Fri May 04, 2012 2:40 pm

blue

What is Normal Polyglide?

If you check t'internet you will see there are a number of polyglide products, therefore I don't think any one in particular could be classed as 'normal'.

by Shirina Fri May 04, 2012 5:26 pm

until such remarks, as no one is normal, this a typical response from those who are not normal and wish to hide the fact.

I never made the claim that I was normal, so your point is irrelevant.

I know I'm not normal. I suffer from a nerve disorder called peripheral neuropathy. Most people don't. That makes me abnormal. People with medical conditions are abnormal, not only because most people do not have any one specific condition, but also because having a medical condition means your body is no longer in its "normal" state. So I guess anyone with medical conditions should be considered morally corrupt.

Oh wait! There was a time when people actually believed that. Of course, that was before WWII.

By the way, nice dodge and deflect tap dancing game you're playing.

by polyglide Sat May 05, 2012 11:48 am

You just cannot accept the truth and that is the basic flaw in all your posts.

When you disagree with anything then you bring in that which has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual point.

You have my deapest smypathy regarding your illness and I trust it gets better if that is possible.

However, to bring illness or anything similar into the normal problem is stupid.

I have expressed very clearly what is generally accepted as normal.

You would never ever say that anyone suffering an illness was abnormal
in the genaral run of things you would say they were unfortunate.

You use words that are accepted by the majority of people as to their meaning and no one would say an ill person was abnormal just as no one should call a homosexcual queer etc.

by oftenwrong Sat May 05, 2012 12:12 pm

Nothing if not consistent.

Nothing of particular novelty either, unfortunately.

by Shirina Sat May 05, 2012 4:02 pm

You just cannot accept the truth and that is the basic flaw in all your posts.

LOL! I'm still waiting for you to say something truthful. The basic flaw in all of your posts is that you're just not very good at this.

When you disagree with anything then you bring in that which has nothing whatsoever to do with the actual point.

Haha, it's not my fault that you cannot recognize correlations and connections even when they are quite obvious to anyone else.

Does anyone else think I make all kinds of irrelevant, non-topical statements in my posts? Perhaps I should create a poll and all the forum members can vote on it. Would you care to put it to the test? I am.

You have my deapest smypathy regarding your illness and I trust it gets better if that is possible.

Thank you, but unfortunately, there is no cure.

However, to bring illness or anything similar into the normal problem is stupid.

Hardly. You're trying to move the goal posts. You cannot say the term only applies to specific things ... things that you *want* it to apply to. That isn't going to fly with me. ANYTHING that isn't normal is "abnormal." That includes medical conditions. Hell, even doctors say things like, "He has an abnormal heart beat."

You would never ever say that anyone suffering an illness was abnormal

Heehee, so you're saying that the term "abnormal" is pejorative and insulting? Why else would we never say someone with a medical condition is "abnormal?" With that being the case, why, if you're not "for or against" homosexuals would you use a pejorative and insulting term to describe them? Hmmm?

You walked right into that one. LOL!

by polyglide Tue May 15, 2012 4:06 pm

I do not believe I brought illness into the matter of what is normal or abnormal.

Although if the doctor said you have an abnormal growth, would you want him struck off.

When talking about behaviour and the normal or abnormal in humans it has nothing whatsoever to do with abnomalities elsewhere.

What is abnoraml behaviour is abnormal behaviour however you try to dress it up.

And that is a fact.

by **Ivan** Tue May 15, 2012 4:15 pm

polyglide. I'd be grateful if you'd check your messages and confirm that you have received a PM from Shirina in her capacity as Global Moderator. Thank you.

by polyglide Tue May 15, 2012 4:23 pm

Ivan, I have tried to check what you request but been unable to do so.

by polyglide Tue May 15, 2012 4:26 pm

My message says I have no new message

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