Is the United Kingdom doomed?

First topic message reminder :

Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/majority-back-scottish-independence-193447501.html

Never mind the SNP. The real danger is if the DUP are in government

From an article by Owen Jones:-

"In a desperate, scorched-earth attempt to remain in power, the unionist Tories are willing to ensure the break-up of the UK, shamelessly fanning anti-Scottish resentment in England while fuelling the SNP juggernaut. But we have had all too much scrutiny of the SNP, some of it bordering on hysteria. Where, then, is the debate about the Tories’ likely partners, Northern Ireland’s Democratic Unionist Party? The idea of these bigoted throwbacks holding the balance of power should frighten even moderate Tories.

The DUP once championed the ‘Save Ulster from Sodomy’ campaign in a bitter attempt to prevent the decriminalisation of homosexuality. They oppose the right of women to an abortion, with Jim Wells (the DUP health minister in Northern Ireland) supporting a ban even for rape victims. Creationism is a powerful vein within the party. And even as public support for the death penalty is in steep decline, back in 2011 the DUP called for a parliamentary debate to reinstate it.

A Tory-led government would probably not just be reliant on the DUP, but UKIP too. They would make common cause with the large, rabidly right-wing contingent on the Tory backbenches. The hard right would have more political influence over the national government than at any other point in post-war British history. This would all but guarantee Scottish independence: Scottish MPs would be locked out of the new government, and the SNP would stick a new referendum in their 2016 Holyrood manifesto, and almost certainly walk such a vote amid widespread Scottish revulsion."

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/24/snp-dup-democratic-unionist-party-government-tories-anti-scottish-coalition-homophobic

oftenwrong wrote:-
Would some unkind people refer to such division as "Balkanisation" do you think, Ivan?

I think a valid comparison with Balkanisation only applies when divisions are made according to ethnically distinct homogenous groups. I wouldn’t have thought, for example, that the east midlands was sufficiently different from the west midlands for it to be noticeable. On the other hand, the Balkans has different races, different religions, and some people even using the Cyrillic alphabet. I suspect that England has been an entity for long enough, with a common language (and nominal religion), for regional government not to risk fragmentation.

It may not be a good idea, but I can’t think of another solution to the ‘West Lothian question’, other than to just kick it into the long grass again, even though the Tories are desperate to milk it for party advantage. I always come back to the fact that effectively we already have an English Parliament. It’s called Westminster, where 533 of the 650 MPs (82%) represent English constituencies.

And the tories seem to be suggesting that only 'English' votes count towards the Westminster Parliament, and that other votes should be discounted. I do not quite see how a minority tory government is to survive when outvoted by the British Peoples. Military rule, I suppose.

"Only English votes count towards Westminster" is that put forward by the very far right of the Tory party Penderyn? who also want independence for Wales too?
And leaving England alone instead of together in what was once the union of four countries, ie the Kingdom.

This is all been stirred up by the SNP, then whispering in the ear of Plaid Cymru for them to ask for more money for Wales and to start Wales off on the Independence trail.

We certainly live in interesting times

Very I am afraid.

Did anyone see the BBC panorama program this evening where statiscian Nate Silver was trying to predict the election result?

Well according to him, the Tories would be the biggest party after the next election, but still unable to govern without a coalition partner. So in that case Mr Miliband you might want to rethink your continued rebutalls towards a deal with the SNP

.....Surely he would work with the SNP to prevent another Tory government

stuart torr wrote:Very I am afraid.

Hi Stuart

I just was watching Clegg on the Agenda on catch up (ITV)

He's said that they wouldn't support the Tories over cuts to disability benefits.

Clegg has said many things in the past, most of which can be taken with a pinch of salt, especially his pledge on tuition fees. Whatever he has said now about disability benefits has no relevance on a thread about the threat to the unity of the UK, and this is not the place to start a private discussion.

My apologies.

I was just trying to get rid of his fears over cuts to disability benefits, since there were always fears that the LibDems would back them in a future coalition with the Tories.

Phillip J H wrote:Did anyone see the BBC panorama program this evening where statiscian Nate Silver was trying to predict the election result?

Well according to him, the Tories would be the biggest party after the next election, but still unable to govern without a coalition partner. So in that case Mr Miliband you might want to rethink your continued rebutalls towards a deal with the SNP

Sorry Phillip you have this one very wrong, the SNP want to put Ed between a rock and a hard place they will suck Ed in until its the right time then they will withdraw there support leaving Ed no other chioce than to call another G.E. or allow the Tories into power knackering the Labour parties name hence leaving England with a permanant Tory gov't and for that the Tories will give the SNP another Indy Ref which by then Scots will vote Yes.

Do not think I am looking on the black side of life I am not, but knowing how much the SNP want to rule Scotland on there own there would be no Tories & no Labour party for us Scots to vote for, please think about what I have said before you answer this post I will be looking forward to hear what you all have to say.

I'm inclined to agree with red here - my impression is that, impressive though she is, and seeming to have genuine left-wing credentials, nicola Sturgeon may still be a puppet of Alex Salmond, and the real power of the SNP may in fact rest with him - and he is someone I would not trust even if I could see him

I Believe the power certainly rests with him boatlady, a man to trust as far as you could throw, and that would not be very far now would it.

One presumes Ivan, that the home of the SNP being Glasgow?

Redflag wrote:This is all been stirred up by the SNP, then whispering in the ear of Plaid Cymru  for them to ask for more money for Wales and to start Wales off on the Independence  trail.

As has been clearly shown, we have been done out of vast sums by the Barnett formula. London eats everyone's money.

That is because they are greedy Penderyn.

Redflag wrote:This is all been stirred up by the SNP....

Harold Wilson once said "A week is a long time in Politics" and a lot certainly seems to have occurred since the referendum in Scotland just last September: Should Scotland be an independent country?

The final Vote then was
NO 2,001,926 (55.30 %)
YES 1,617,989 (44.70 %)

Now, a week away from a General Election, polls suggest that most of those Scots who voted "No" to independence have swung through 180 degrees and will return fifty or sixty SNP candidates to the Westminster parliament as their MPs.

Can it be true?

Afraid it looks like it OW, the independence has got a strong hold on them now has it not? they certainly want to be seperate from the rest of the UK.

The people of Scotland have been hoodwinked and do feel sorry for them when they wake up to the truth of the SNP, but hope they wake up in time be they vote for Independence. Because if they do not it will be too late and they will have austerity for the next 30-50 years.

Redflag wrote:-
This is all been stirred up by the SNP

I think this was all stirred up by Cameron on the morning after the referendum. Instead of showing magnanimity and trying to heal the divisions by holding out a hand of friendship to the Scots, he immediately announced that their MPs would be reduced to second class status with his plans for EVEL.

Cameron (or more probably Osborne or Crosby) no doubt planned to get Labour fully involved in the 'No' campaign, and we saw the way in which both Darling and Brown were used. By stirring the pot on the morning after the referendum, Cameron knew it would infuriate the Scots and drive them away from Labour and into the hands of the SNP. He never cares about the long-term consequences of anything, merely his own short-term survival, and he knew that a massive loss of seats for Labour in Scotland would leave the Tories with a better chance of being the largest party after the election.

Ivan wrote: .... Cameron knew it would infuriate the Scots and drive them away from Labour and into the hands of the SNP. He never cares about the long-term consequences of anything, merely his own short-term survival, and he knew that a massive loss of seats for Labour in Scotland would leave the Tories with a better chance of being the largest party after the election.

And Cameron's dastardly plan will work unless the Scots decide within the next few days that they're not going to fall for it.

Watch that space!

OW I have been praying for that for weeks, because if they don't they will end up with something else that will not be nice at all 30-50 years of real austerity.

Food for thought. This endorses what Redflag has been saying.........

If you think the SNP are a left-wing force, think again

Extracts from an article by David Clark:-

The real reason for being a Nat-sceptic is that, aside from nationalism, the SNP has no ideological core of its own and simply instrumentalises progressive ideas to advance the regressive goal of separatism. For the non-Scottish left there can be no question of a principled and trusting relationship with the SNP, because you can’t build a common project for social change with someone whose first and only purpose is to smash up the political community to which you both belong. The left in England and Wales may want the UK to work differently, but they definitely want it to work. Nicola Sturgeon and her party want it to fail.

The SNP’s ‘business friendly’ approach of sucking up to powerful tycoons like Donald Trump, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch is scarcely any better then Blair’s cloying embrace of the super-rich, and arguably worse. The party’s flagship post-independence economic policy of attracting multinational companies by slashing corporation tax and undercutting the welfare budgets of other countries is the sort of tax piracy beloved of the neo-liberal right. The SNP’s claims to be anti-austerity have been revealed as baseless. Only opposition to Trident sets it apart; hardly an act of principle given that an independent Scotland wouldn’t be able to afford nuclear weapons.

When Nicola Sturgeon says that she wants to help the Labour Party, she does so in the same spirit that Lenin once advised his British followers support the Labour Party of Arthur Henderson: “as the rope supports a hanged man”.

For the whole article:-
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again

Ah, the sweet smell of five more years of Opposition drifts through the air...

What made Miliband and the Labour party think that having their manifesto pledges engraved in a stone monument would impress or win voters?

Was it just a case of collective Brain Fade?

Are we not supposed to be a left wing site in support of Ed and the Labour party? the UK may be doomed as a whole due to the SNP,but Labours supporters should stick together should they not in support of Ed.

There is a point at which even well-wishers' patience runs out...

Better keep my mouth shut Phil, or I may put my foot in it again.

Are we not supposed to be a left wing site in support of Ed and the Labour party? the UK may be doomed as a whole due to the SNP,but Labours supporters should stick together should they not in support of Ed.

Left-of-centre views tend to get short shrift in the mainly right-wing press, but at least on a forum such as this we can express and discuss opinions, share articles and post links elsewhere (for example, on Twitter). However, although this site is described as ‘left-inclined’, it doesn’t belong to the Labour Party. Any views can be expressed here as long as they are legal, and as long as the posters adhere to the rules of the forum.

I appreciate that Labour members and supporters, including me, will wish to show support and some degree of loyalty, especially in an election campaign, but to expect or require posters to toe the party line with their comments is what happens in North Korea and has no place on Cutting Edge.

I was warching the last leaders debates here in Scotland I was not going to bother watching it but glad I did, a gentleman in the audience asked Sturgeon a question in regards too when the next referendum for Indepencece would be & of course she tripped out the same old story it would be down to the Scottish people. He then asked why the SNP had passed a motion saying that members could not ask questions of the SNP then he proceeded to ask her why the UNDERSPEND of £440,000 in Scotlands budget if that money is still there, if you have seen her flying around Scotland in her own Helicoptor.

So it looks like Scotland would not have a DEMOCRATIC country but a DICTATOESHIP if the SNP are left in charge, my suspision is well founded in regards to the SNP I hope all of Scotland was watching last night that should change the minds of the Scottish voters.

Ivan this was on BB1 Scotland if you can get it on iplayer

The Scots are so entrenched are they not Redflag, on breaking away from the union, and becoming independent that I think it will take more than a T.V. programme to change their minds i'm afraid.

Coincidentally, not so long ago:

MARGARET Thatcher is boosting support for Scottish independence from beyond the grave, the Scottish Daily Record can reveal.

The official campaign for independence have enjoyed a huge surge in donations since the divisive former prime minister died last Monday.   A source close to Yes Scotland yesterday revealed they received 10,000 donations last week and another 16,000 this week, adding: "We are putting it down to the Thatcher effect."

Thatcher's unpopularity north of the Border indirectly helped create the Scottish Parliament and it seems wall-to-wall media coverage of her destructive legacy has once again fired up Scots.   Yes Scotland and the pro-UK Better Together campaign are involved in a fundraising war ahead of next year's referendum.

The Thatcher boost for the indy coffers emerged as Labour and Tory MSPs clashed during a debate over her legacy.

Thatcher Labour's James Kelly branded her a class warrior whose policies led to some people "dying in an early grave".

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/THATCHER+EFFECT+A+BOOST+FOR+INDY%3b+26%2c000+pledge+money+in+days+after+...-a0326903205

So you think that will cost Labour seats in Scotland then OW?

What I forgot to mention on my earlier post was that SNP activists are telling the people on the doorstep is that this general election is a stepping stone to another referendum for Independence, so all of the CRAP that comes out of Sturgeons mouth is nothing more than LIES.

Just making sure that SNP vote SNP and not Labour then Redflag, so losing our seats where needed.

Can we really argue with this reasoning from Andrew Sparrow of ‘The Guardian’?  

“David Cameron was one of those politicians who, entirely legitimately, sought to persuade, and ultimately successfully persuaded, people in Scotland to vote against independence on the basis that Scotland’s voice could and would be heard within the Westminster system.

If Scotland chooses now, as it is democratically entitled to do, to make its voice heard by voting SNP, then it is completely outrageous and unacceptable for any Westminster politician to say to Scotland that that’s not acceptable. It is tantamount to saying your voice will be heard, as long as you vote the way we want you to vote. That’s not acceptable.”

Absolutely dispicable Ivan is it not.?

Ivan wrote:Can we really argue with this reasoning from Andrew Sparrow of ‘The Guardian’?  

“David Cameron was one of those politicians who, entirely legitimately, sought to persuade, and ultimately successfully persuaded, people in Scotland to vote against independence on the basis that Scotland’s voice could and would be heard within the Westminster system.

If Scotland chooses now, as it is democratically entitled to do, to make its voice heard by voting SNP, then it is completely outrageous and unacceptable for any Westminster politician to say to Scotland that that’s not acceptable. It is tantamount to saying your voice will be heard, as long as you vote the way we want you to vote. That’s not acceptable.”

The trouble is that the reaction to the tory scare was, as always, to grovel to Murdoch and his merry mates. Won't do - we have to fight 'em.