How long do you think the coalition will last?

by Ivanhoe Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:28 am

First topic message reminder :

I want people's opinion of how long they think this coalition will last. ?

by blueturando Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:31 pm

In fact most of the people I spoke to from all parties, though a deal would be done with Labour, but the Tory’s where prepared to sell their souls for a lot less than was Labour

Wrong Bobby....The Lib Dems didn't want to do a deal with Labour if Brown was going to remain in charge. If the the Lib Dems had formed a coalition with Labour, Brown would still be PM, so they wisely decided against it

by astra Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:32 pm

what else Nick Clegg could have done

he could have stuck to his principles, and had this sham of an administration bite the dust!

But no! So determined was he to have his 5 minutes of fame he sold what little soul he had to the Tory juggernaught.

I hope he lives easily with his lifetime of shame for what he has done to British Politics and to the British people.

by trevorw2539 Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:34 pm

Quote.
e-mail me your Adress and I will get membership forms for you to join the Labour Party

I've got spares if anyone wants one. Came from Party Headquarters with a welcome letter when I wrote. The letter is signed by the 'boss'. Someone called - er - if I can read the signature - Clement Attlee? Wink

by blueturando Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:35 pm

The left were marginalised by Blair....and I dont mean what the red tops call the looney left like Harry Harperson, but the socialist Left. In fact, are there many true socialists left in the Labour party except at grass roots level?

by blueturando Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:36 pm

I've got spares if anyone wants one. Came from Party Headquarters with a welcome letter when I wrote. The letter is signed by the 'boss'. Someone called - er - if I can read the signature - Clement Attlee?

Lol Trevor, nice one....funny, but then so true

by Ivanhoe Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:44 pm

astra wrote:
what else Nick Clegg could have done

he could have stuck to his principles, and had this sham of an adminitration bite the dust!

But no! So determined was he to have his 5 minutes of fame he sold what little soul he had to the Tory juggernaught.

I hope he lives easily with his lifetime of shame for what he has done to British Politics and to the British people.

Again, it was the British elecrtrate who put Clegg in that position.

by **astradt1** Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:06 pm

While Labour lost the election and the Tory's failed to gain an overall majority, the LibDems could have just let the Tory's form a government and then they, the libdems, would have been able to back or oppose the policies as they saw fit rather than tie themselves into what we have now.....

Remember Belgium went for more than a year without a government and they seemed to have managed......

Camoron would have been able to call an election at anytime saw fit, but he needed time to start the radical policies he is inflicting on the country....

by astra Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:17 pm

Again, it was the British elecrtrate who put Clegg in that position.

The British public did no more than tick a sliver of paper!

Clegg VOLUNTEERED for the firing line, as any one in politics does.

The British Public can only be blamed for giving Clegg a choice. The British Public cannot be blamed for Clegg making the WRONG choice..

by Ivanhoe Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:22 pm

astra wrote:
Again, it was the British elecrtrate who put Clegg in that position.

The British public did no more than tick a sliver of paper!

Clegg VOLUNTEERED for the firing line, as any one in politics does.

The British Public can only be blamed for giving Clegg a choice. The British Public cannot be blamed for Clegg making the WRONG choice..

The British public vote via the way they think, ie with their wallets. Yes, Clegg put himself on the line. But the British public can be blaimed for the State of this country since the 80's.

by astra Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:25 pm

AH!

SO!!

The politicians are PERFECT human beings, more so than the Dalai Lama!

How can the politicos be forgiven so easily?

by oftenwrong Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:31 pm

QUOTE: "The British public vote via the way they think, ie with their wallets."

I'm trying to think of the name of that Pensioner who obviously thinks with his wallet.

by **Phil Hornby** Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:12 pm

How long do you think the coalition will last? - Page 4 F99562BFD25E3C5AC577581340234B

(msn)

" I say - do you think that nice Mr Cameron is going to jump naked out of the cake...?!"

by trevorw2539 Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:36 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:(msn)

" I say - do you think that nice Mr Cameron is going to jump naked out of the cake...?!"

Doubt it. He hasn't got the Royal Assent yet. Smile

by witchfinder Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:40 pm

Its difficult to predict what is going to happen, but I do believe that the NHS reforms are going to come back and haunt both Cameron and Clegg, and I believe that it could very well end up been David Camerons "poll tax".

The next political milestone in this unholy alliance will be the local elections in May, in which the Lib Dems will get a very bloody nose, losing many council seats and councils, the tories will do badly but not as disasterous as the Lib Dems, Labour will do well.

As for the minority parties, the BNP is all but finished Very Happy

- the Greens will probably do a bit better than normal as quite a few former Lib Dem voters will support them, and UKIP could push the Lib Dems into 4th in many areas.

After the elections in May, will there be rebellion amongst the Lib Dems ?

by trevorw2539 Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:16 pm

witchfinder wrote:Its difficult to predict what is going to happen, but I do believe that the NHS reforms are going to come back and haunt both Cameron and Clegg, and I believe that it could very well end up been David Camerons "poll tax".

The next political milestone in this unholy alliance will be the local elections in May, in which the Lib Dems will get a very bloody nose, losing many council seats and councils, the tories will do badly but not as disasterous as the Lib Dems, Labour will do well.

As for the minority parties, the BNP is all but finished - the Greens will probably do a bit better than normal as quite a few former Lib Dem voters will support them, and UKIP could push the Lib Dems into 4th in many areas.

After the elections in May, will there be rebellion amongst the Lib Dems ?

Er. Will there be any left?

If the predicted bloodbath occurs in May it will be appropriate. The map will turn red. Wink

by Stox 16 Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:09 pm

Ivanhoe wrote:
Stox 16 wrote:
blueturando wrote:I don't think that would help Bobby, the majority of the public just don't support it and far be it for me to give away Tory secrets...I think the public would get behind the government to stamp out mindless violence or property distruction. The poll tax was different...no body wanted that (even if the current system is not that different) so the public got behind the protesters there. The only babana skin for Cameron is the NHS......Its bigger than Jesus

blue boy
am i dreaming? but you keep posting saying know one believes the Labour party or left...well is this not what your economy looks like after two whole years.....

Growth Forecast downgraded for the Fifth time by (OBR in November 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 2nd Time by Bank of England 1.4% August 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 3rd Time to 1.7% (Budget 2011)
Growth forecast Downgraded for 3rd Time to by Ernst & Young from1.7% to 0.9% Jan 2012
Growth forecast Downgraded for 2nd Time to by CBI to 1.3% July 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 4th Time to by CBI to 1.2% Sept 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 4th Time to by CBI to 0.9% Feb 2012
Growth forecast Downgraded for 3rd Time to by I.M.F to 1.3% July 2011
Growth forecast Downgraded for 4th Time to by I.M.F to 0.6% Jan 2012
Growth forecast in the Tory budget down for a 3rd time to 1.7% (Budget 2011
Growth forecast in the City as low as 1.2% 2011
Disposable income has seen its Sharpest fall in 30 years or 1980s (ONS)
Annual Earnings Growth remains at 1.9% in February 2012
GDP The last cycle of robust growth in potential output of 2.9% was 1997 to 2006 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
GDP when the Tory-Liberal coalition come to power ,the UK was growing at an annual rate of 4% (OBR)
GDP sluggish at just 0.5% for April 2011 (OBR)
GDP City Growth forecast for 2012 are 0.3% to 0.4% (FT Sept 2011)
GDP Growth for forecast set by bank of England at 2.0% 2010
GDP Contracted by 0.5% in the Q4 in 2010 (OBR)
GDP is 0.8% lower than in November 2010 (OBR)
GDP IS 0.2% lower than MARCH 2011 (OBR)
GDP Growth Contracted by 0.5% Q4 2010 (OBR)
GDP Growth April 2011 was Q1 0.5% (OBR)
GDP Growth July 2011 was just Q2 0.2% (OBR)
GDP Growth starts Jan Q1 2012 at just 0.2% (OBR)
GDP Growth December 2011 Contracted by 0.2% Q4 (OBR)
GDP April's figures have just clawed back last years 0.5% contraction in 2010 (OBR)
GDP is 1.1% lower than the OBR thought it would be in Sept 2010 (OBR)
GDP Growth is now lower than 1930s, 1970s, 1980s 1990s (OBR)
GDP UK is 3.6% blow its pre-financial crisis 2008 (H.M.Trasury)
National Debt hits £1.03 Trillion for the first Time Jan 2012 (OBR)
National Debt actual debt after repurchase by Bank of England is £650 Billion (Guardian on B of E figures)
National Debt Coalition & Bank of England QE for 2011 was £75 billion (OBR/Bank of England)
National Debt Coalition & Bank of England QE for 2012 was £50 billion (OBR/Bank of England)
National Debt total Quantitative Easing is £325 Billion in February 2012 (OBR/Bank of England)
National Debt private + public sector debt totals some 500% 2011 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
National Debt Tory Party forecast National debt will fall by just £54 Billion by 2015 (Tory party website)
UK Economic Decline is two and half times that of the entire Euro zone (ONS & H.M.Trasury) 2011
UK Economic Decline is 77% of the EU’s decline for 2011 (H.M.Trasury)
UK Economy shrank by 5.0% in 2009 the biggest calendar year fall since 1921 ( NIE)
UK Economy shrank by 6.3% in 2011 the biggest calendar year fall on record by October 2011 ( NIE)
UK Pound exchange rate has fallen by 21.0% against the Dollar 2011 (H.M.Trasury)
UK lose market share accelerated from 2008 to 2010. (Oxford Economic )
Government Borrowing Tory-Liberal coalition come to power stated an additional £111 Billion 2009 (OBR)
Government Borrowing Net borrowing was just £7.3 Billion in 2010 (H.M.Trasury)
Government Borrowing forecast up by £54 Billion (Budget 2011)
Government Borrowing overshot in Q4 by £127 Billion (OBR)
Government Borrowing overshot in Jan 2012 by £157 Billion (ONS)
Government Borrowing topped the £10 billion by just Feb 2011 (OBR)
Government Borrowing to be £10 billion higher every year from 2012 (OBR)
Government Borrowing in Jan 2012 was £13.7 billion for December 2011 overshooting (OBR)
Private Pension deficit up from £24.5 Billion to £31.7 Billion by Sept 2011 (ONS)
Private Pension Deficit £158 billion December 2011 (ONS)
Private Pension deficit £255.2 form £222 billion in Jan 2012 (N.M.A & ONS)
UK 10 Year bonds, the Historical high of 12.84% set in April 1990 (H.M.Trasury)
UK 10 year Bonds, Record low of 1.97% set in Jan 2012 (H.M.Trasury)
UK 10 Year Bonds, Yields decline by 1.47% from 1989 to 2012 (H.M.Trasury)
UK 10 Year Bonds, averaged 6.28% (H.M.Trasury)
Unemployment up to record 17 year high (ONS)
Unemployment record was set in 1981 at 2.6 million or 9.8% of the Workforce
Unemployment record was set in 1981 was past at 2.67 million or 8.4% of the Workforce January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment for woman rose for the 10th month in a row March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment increased by 20,000 the highest three month figure since Jan 1997 (ONS)
Unemployment increased by 16,000 for the last tree months of 2011. January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 7.7% of economically active population March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 8.4%% of economically active population 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment forecast in the budget set to rise to 8.1% in 2012 (Budget 2011)
Unemployment is was2.6 million in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment is now 2.6 million in December 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment is up to 2.67 million in January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment Claimants increased by 12,400 in March 2011 to April 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment Claimants increased 11 month in a row by 6,900 to a total of 1.6 million January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment Woman Claimants increased by 9,300 to 474,400 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment Men Claimants increased by 3,100 to 994,200 in March 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment 16-24 hit 1.043 million in Q3, the highest since records began in 1992. 2011 (ONS)
Unemployment 16-24 hit 1.35 million in Q1 Up 22,000 January 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment benefit payments rose by 1,200 to 1.6 million by December 2012 (ONS)
Unemployment benefit payments up to 1980s levels (ONS)
Business failures in 2010 was 23,000 (ONS)
Business failures in 2011 was 20,900 or 6.5% (ONS)
Bankers Bonus for £14 billion for 2011 (FT & Guardian & BBC)
Manufacturing was flat Feb 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing production out put 1.5% decline in April 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing touted as the engine of the economy fall by 0.3% in July 2011 (ONS)
Manufacturing jobless in Q4 2011 to Jan 2012 was up to 395,000
Manufacturing production Cable & Wireless Communication slumped nearly 17% in 2011 (FT)
BDOs output index dropped from Decembers 91.4% to February 2012 to 91.2%
Exports fell in Jan 2011 (HMCR)
Exports Vs Imports increased by 14.7% in October 2011 (HMCR)
Factory gate prices rose 0.9% between February & March 2011 (ONS)
Factory gate prices rose at an annual rate of 5.3% in May 2011 (ONS)
Factory gate prices in December 2011 to 4.8% (ONS)
Factory gate prices fell in January 2012 to 4.1% (ONS)
Factory gate Producers input price inflation in January 2012 is 7% (ONS)
Mortgage & Credit card debt will soar to £2,126 billion by 2015 (ONS)
Mortgage debt now accounts is around £21,000 per person April 2011 (ONS)
Home repossessions peak set in 1991 at 19,000 homes (council of mortgage lenders)
Home repossession forecast to rise to 45,000 in 2012 (council of mortgage lenders )
Construction industry suffered a 0.5% fall in output from November to January 2012 (ONS)
North sea Oil Tax up by £2 Billion for 2011, with HMCR taking 88% in Tax (ONS)
The Worst squeeze on living standards for 90 years
Consumer spending accounts for 65% of the UK economy April 2011 (OMS)
Consumer spending shows the biggest fell in total sales since the survey began in 1995 (KPMG)
Consumer spending has fallen by 1.7% for four consecutive Q in 2011. (ONS)
Consumer spending has rose by 1.9% Q1 January 2012 (ONS)
Personal Spending shows it first drop in personal spending power since the Thatcher slump in 1980s (KMPG)
Petrol down by 1p with VAT up by 2% in the Budget 2011
Petrol prices average increased by 52% up to March 2010
Food Prices rose 7.4% in the biggest rise since 2009 (ONS)
Food Prices rising at 4.9% rising faster than any other OECD in Jan 2012 member (UBS & OECD)
CPI Inflation increase to 3.3% December 2010 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
CPI has put the cost of living double its target from 4% in Jan 2011 to 4.4% in April 2011 (OBR & Oxford Economic)
CPI September 2011 rises by 5.2% (ONS)
CPI October 2011 fall by just 0.2% to 5.0% (ONS)
CPI January 2012 fell to 4.8% from 5.0% (Bank of England)
RPI has gone from 5.1% to 5.5% the highest since 1991 (ONS)
RPI Jan 2011 leapt to CPI 4% from 3.7% with Market Oracle putting real inflation at

Are really trying to tell me that any opposition cannot beat this banal government with data like this?....if you are Blue...you need to think again....why do you think the front bench of the opposition is not making a great be play of this data?.....could it just not be there is no GE around the corner?....its called keep your economic powder dry Blue....you do not win any elections right now...pointless...so let the Tory party carry on with all there hot air now...if all they have to show for two years is economic data like this and at best a 2 point lead in some poll.... I am over the moon...

I am more than happen with that....but would not be if I was a Tory party member....believe me..right now the UK media has be quite soft of the Tory party...got a feeling this will not go on for much longer....

Stox 16, The UK media have to be politically impartial. But I am equally wondering when the rot is going to turn the tables as State cuts continue, and unemployment rises, when and if the media worm will turn.

Also im wondering how long Clegg and Cameron and their respective party MP's scattered around the country, are going to continue getting away with the following, "you have to remember we were left a huge deficit by Labour".?.

This Deficit cutting was pushed by the media before the coalition was formed, with the three leaders of their respective parties orchestrated to answer this one question, with a mute audience on hand.

It was a circus.

Hello Ivanhoe
Well its always most interesting when I read about this so-called huge deficit left by the Labour Party...as here is the public debt to GDP from 1979 to 2011. if you look at it you will note that from 1979 to 1997 10 of the 18 years of Tory rule saw at public debt to GDP of over 40%. you will also note that only 2 year in the last 13 years saw the national public debt to GDP at over 40%. So while the Tory party run around tell everyone how bad the public national debt to GDP was... the real economic figures do not bear this out at all do they?... what you will also note is how the public debt to GDP took off after the world banking crisis?

So where is this so-called huge deficit in public debt to GDP then?? you will also note that the Debt to GDP was in fact very steady over most of the 13 years. unlike the 18 years of the Tory government..who where mostly in the 40% mark for most of there time in office...

Public Net Debt
Fiscal Years 1979 to 2011
Year GDP
£ billion Public Net Debt -total
percent GDP

1979 199.22 43.61 a
1980 233.184 42.11 a
1981 256.279 44.40 a
1982 281.024 44.55 a
1983 307.207 43.13 a
1984 329.913 43.59 a
1985 361.758 43.45 a
1986 389.149 41.81 a
1987 428.665 39.14 a
1988 478.51 34.98 a
1989 525.274 29.30 a
1990 570.283 26.69 a
1991 598.664 25.27 a
1992 622.08 26.70 a
1993 654.196 30.97 a
1994 692.987 36.05 a
1995 733.266 39.55 a
1996 781.726 41.20 a
1997 830.094 41.92 a
1998 879.102 40.14 a
1999 928.73 37.86 a
2000 976.533 35.37 a
2001 1021.83 30.57 a
2002 1075.56 29.33 a
2003 1139.75 30.45 a
2004 1202.96 31.82 a

2005 1254.06 33.81 a
2006 1325.8 34.92 a
2007 1398.88 35.74 a
2008 1448.39 36.25 a
2009 1395.87 44.19 a
2010 1453.62 52.25 a
2011 1526.5 59.56 e
Legend:
a - actual outturn
e - estimate in HM Treasury 2011 budget

I would also like to address this point of The UK media have to be politically impartial? Well so far the media has in my view distorted the true state of the UK economy for some time...now they either do not wish to look at the Government data or they just do not fully understand it..either way the HM Treasury figures published in the 2011 budget are either wrong or someone is telling pork pies...what I am happy to confirm is from my own company data and forecasting they show them to be be right...What they do show is the UK economy before the world banking crisis was running with no more of a public debt to GDP that was out of the ordinary. if anything it was being ran quite well...The take off of public debt can well be seen to of hit the roof after the banking bail out....now the media keeps saying this is not the case? well if there right then the Treasury is wrong...can you see what I am saying Ivanhoe? as only one can be right can they not?

by Stox 16 Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:31 pm

blueturando wrote:
Bluey, is this some new Tory strategy. If you want to oust a Government, The public should get behind them.

All I am saying Bobby is that the majority of the public do not and will not support voilence and property distruction. You only have to cast you mind back to the riots or the anarchists taking over the student fees demos to know this. I am not saying the pople will get behind the government directly, but they will get behind the rest of society as a whole.

The problem you have is that almost all of the people in the private sector are suffering and hurting as much, if not more as people in the public sector. The Private sector has no voice and therefore gets left out...All they see if the public sector promoting their own self interest (I know that's what unions are paid to do) mainly at the expense of the Private sector. What you need to do if you want action is to get all sectors together and have a country wide walk out. That would include private utility companies, supermarkets and other retailers....Then you would see real action from the government. All they see now is that they are fighting the same battle as Maggie did...and she won hands down, so what have they got to fear from the unions?

How interesting Blue...when you state...Private sector has no voice and therefore gets left out...All they see if the public sector promoting their own self interest.....Now I run my own company with 29 full time staff...let me ask you a question...why do you believe that public sector workers are up-set so much? just think about it..and when you reply I will answer you....But be very careful in your reply Blue...

by Stox 16 Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:39 pm

blueturando wrote:
In fact most of the people I spoke to from all parties, though a deal would be done with Labour, but the Tory’s where prepared to sell their souls for a lot less than was Labour

Wrong Bobby....The Lib Dems didn't want to do a deal with Labour if Brown was going to remain in charge. If the the Lib Dems had formed a coalition with Labour, Brown would still be PM, so they wisely decided against it

I think you will find it was Clegg who did not want a deal with Brown and most of the Lib/Dem's would of been more happy with a deal with Labour...not that it matters as most of there members have now left the Lib/Dems and joined the Labour Party anyway... it was a stupid move by Clegg I must say.. has he should of gone for a policy by policy government with the Tories as the largest party...would of come out of that much better than he has now...just my view

by blueturando Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:07 am

How interesting Blue...when you state...Private sector has no voice and therefore gets left out...All they see if the public sector promoting their own self interest.....Now I run my own company with 29 full time staff...let me ask you a question...why do you believe that public sector workers are up-set so much? just think about it..and when you reply I will answer you....But be very careful in your reply Blue... .

Hi Stox.....sorry I wont be careful in how I answer your point, I will just give you my honest opinion.
In my opinion many public sector workers are upset about cutbacks....cutbacks to jobs, cutbacks to pensions, cutbacks to wage increases....ALL these cutbacks have also been happening just as much, if not more in the private sector.
Again many people who work in the public sector believe wrongly that they deserve more benefits than people in the private sector because they do not get paid as much...and again this is a myth. Maybe this was true 20 or so years ago, but not in 2012.
So let me ask you this Stox.....what if your 29 staff belonged to a union and that union holds a ballot of all members from similar companies in your sector seeking a better pension and wage increases. None of your staff vote, but the ballot result comes in voting to strike. Are you happy for your business to close for a day or so....or longer while your staff go out on strike in support of other companies staff, or do you cave in and provide more money for your staff pensions and give everyone a pay rise whether your business can afford it or not........Be very careful with your reply Stox

.

by blueturando Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:59 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/29/capitalism-lefties-clueless-emma-harrison

Stox....It might help you and a few of the other lefties to read this excellent article

by Stox 16 Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:40 am

blueturando wrote:
How interesting Blue...when you state...Private sector has no voice and therefore gets left out...All they see if the public sector promoting their own self interest.....Now I run my own company with 29 full time staff...let me ask you a question...why do you believe that public sector workers are up-set so much? just think about it..and when you reply I will answer you....But be very careful in your reply Blue... .

Hi Stox.....sorry I wont be careful in how I answer your point, I will just give you my honest opinion.
In my opinion many public sector workers are upset about cutbacks....cutbacks to jobs, cutbacks to pensions, cutbacks to wage increases....ALL these cutbacks have also been happening just as much, if not more in the private sector.
Again many people who work in the public sector believe wrongly that they deserve more benefits than people in the private sector because they do not get paid as much...and again this is a myth. Maybe this was true 20 or so years ago, but not in 2012.
So let me ask you this Stox.....what if your 29 staff belonged to a union and that union holds a ballot of all members from similar companies in your sector seeking a better pension and wage increases. None of your staff vote, but the ballot result comes in voting to strike. Are you happy for your business to close for a day or so....or longer while your staff go out on strike in support of other companies staff, or do you cave in and provide more money for your staff pensions and give everyone a pay rise whether your business can afford it or not........Be very careful with your reply Stox

.

Hello Blue
First of all I said be careful as there are a great many pit fulls in what you are saying...

A myth. They are better paid, until you get to the very highest levels of management.
The Pensions Policy Institute, an independent research charity, puts average public sector salaries at £25,600 and those in the private sector at £25,300, although the PPI says salaries soared in the private sector when it came to the very top jobs. So we are only talking about 300 pounds on the average salaries to start with.

However...Making a comparison between average earnings in the public and the private sector does not tell us if people are being paid more for doing comparable jobs. The private sector figures include millions of low paid workers, particularly in the retail sector, for which there is no public sector equivalent. This brings down the median average earnings figure in the private sector, not because people are being paid less for doing the same work, but because different roles are being carried out. Equally, it is difficult to compare the wages of social workers, teaching support staff and firefighters with private sector roles, simply because these jobs only exist in the public sector. Now given the Government is there employer I think I too would be fighting to keep my £300 pounds more? as would you give this up...or does it not bother you?

Another myth. The average public sector pension is £7,000 compared with the average personal pension of £5,000. So we are talking about a difference of just £2,000 pounds a year. Would you not fight to keep it? think most people would?

Most private companies have give an average salary rise of between 2% and 3% while public sector workers have been in a two to three year pay freeze. do you think this too could have something to do with it...

as for my company...well we operate a partnership. with two staff partners who set on our board. all rises are put to all the company partners each year. it works very well. so cannot see the company partners wishing to do as you say...

by Stox 16 Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:46 am

blueturando wrote:http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/29/capitalism-lefties-clueless-emma-harrison

Stox....It might help you and a few of the other lefties to read this excellent article

its what you say...one persons view in an article...What does this tell me about the UK economy...nothing at all. its about Emma Harrison and her company..poorly run by the sounds of things...but has little to do with left of center economic data does it...so not very interesting too me at all...sorry blue

but Blue why not try some real Tory party economics in action for once...could help you on the Right wing....as its a great deal more important the Emma Harrison and her company. as its just one company while here is the whole UK economy that is being messed up by Gideon...

The magnitude of the blow suffered by the UK economy since the beginning of the financial crisis is very considerably minimized by not presenting it in terms of a common international yardstick. Gauged by decline in GDP, using a common international purchasing measure, dollars, no other economy in the world has shrunk even remotely as much as the UK .

As most countries produce only annualized GDP data it will be necessary to wait before a comprehensive global comparison can be made for 2011. However it is clear no substantial growth in dollar terms took place in the UK economy during that year – GDP at national current prices rose only 1.4 per cent between the 1st and 3rd quarters and the change in the pound’s exchange rate against the dollar during the year was a marginal 0.3 per cent. Therefore there will have been no significant recovery from the UK OBR data, and the gap between the UK and other European economies, which form the next worst performing major group, is too great to have been qualitatively affected by changes in the Euro’s exchange rate – the Euro declined against the pound by only 3.3 per cent in 2011.

fall in UK GDP in 2007-2010 was $562 billion compared to the next worst performing national economy, Italy, with a decline of $65 billion – i.e. the decline in UK GDP in the common measuring yardstick of dollars was more than eight times that of the next worst performing national economy. Table 1 shows the 10 national economies suffering the greatest declines in dollar GDP.

It is also extremely striking that the UK’s decline was more than two and a half times that of the entire Eurozone. The UK accounted for a somewhat astonishing 77 per cent of the EU's decline.

Expressed in percentage terms the situation is no better. of all economies for which World Bank data is available only Iceland, with a decline in dollar GDP of 38.4 per cent, suffered a worst percentage fall than the UK - even bail out economy Ireland, with a fall of 18.4 per cent, outperformed the UK economy.

Two trends intersected for the UK's performance to be so much worse than that of any other economy. First, contrary to the government's anti-European rhetoric, UK economic performance in constant price national currency terms has been significantly worse than the Eurozone during the financial crisis . Up to the latest available data, for the 3rd quarter of 2011, UK GDP was still 3.6 per cent below its pre-financial crisis peak compared to the Eurozone's 1.7 per cent below. Second, between the beginning of 2008 and the beginning of 2012, the pound's exchange rate has fallen by 21.0 per cent against the dollar compared to the Euro's 11.4 per cent drop in the same period. The multiplicative effect of the severity of the relative drop in constant price GDP and the fall in the pound's exchange rate accounts for the unequalled decline in UK GDP in dollars.

As at present the UK economy shows no substantial sign of recovery, the present UK government, which maintains a steadfastly ostrich like attitude towards Europe in particular, and most other countries in general, may argue that a measure in terms of dollars at current exchange rates is irrelevant – the UK currency is the pound and what counts is constant price shifts. Such an argument is false and an attempt to disguise the true scale of the decline of the UK economy.

by Stox 16 Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:21 am

trevorw2539 wrote:
witchfinder wrote:Its difficult to predict what is going to happen, but I do believe that the NHS reforms are going to come back and haunt both Cameron and Clegg, and I believe that it could very well end up been David Camerons "poll tax".

The next political milestone in this unholy alliance will be the local elections in May, in which the Lib Dems will get a very bloody nose, losing many council seats and councils, the tories will do badly but not as disasterous as the Lib Dems, Labour will do well.

As for the minority parties, the BNP is all but finished - the Greens will probably do a bit better than normal as quite a few former Lib Dem voters will support them, and UKIP could push the Lib Dems into 4th in many areas.

After the elections in May, will there be rebellion amongst the Lib Dems ?

Er. Will there be any left?

If the predicted bloodbath occurs in May it will be appropriate. The map will turn red.

not sure the whole map will turn Red...as that is almost impossible to do...what really matters are the key results in battle ground seats...this is what you need to look at...

by trevorw2539 Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:31 am

How long do you think the coalition will last? - Page 4 Empty

Re: After the coalition, what next - UKIP, BNP, Green Party?
by Stox 16 Today at 2:21 am

trevorw2539 wrote:

witchfinder wrote:Its difficult to predict what is going to happen, but I do believe that the NHS reforms are going to come back and haunt both Cameron and Clegg, and I believe that it could very well end up been David Camerons "poll tax".

The next political milestone in this unholy alliance will be the local elections in May, in which the Lib Dems will get a very bloody nose, losing many council seats and councils, the tories will do badly but not as disasterous as the Lib Dems, Labour will do well.

As for the minority parties, the BNP is all but finished - the Greens will probably do a bit better than normal as quite a few former Lib Dem voters will support them, and UKIP could push the Lib Dems into 4th in many areas.

After the elections in May, will there be rebellion amongst the Lib Dems ?

Er. Will there be any left?

If the predicted bloodbath occurs in May it will be appropriate. The map will turn red.

not sure the whole map will turn Red...as that is almost impossible to do...what really matters are the key results in battle ground seats...this is what you need to look at...

How long do you think the coalition will last? - Page 4 77-2

How long do you think the coalition will last? - Page 4 77-2

Stox 16

Posts: 525
Join date: 2011-12-18
Location: Suffolk in the UK

Agreed. But it will be a significant amount.

Once discussing a topic on the old MSN threads about class with a chap. He pulled to old one ''I've got blue blood in my veins'.

I commiserated with him, pointing out that, like the rest of humanity, my blood was red. Never heard from him again. Strange!

by astra Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:26 pm

Conservative MEP Roger Helmer has defected to UKIP as "UKIP better reflect Conservative values than Cameron"

Don't know that I'm so keen on the ukip now! Crying or Very sad

by **Phil Hornby** Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:31 pm

UKIP and the BNP are full of folk who would gladly vote Tory if the tablets wear off... Shocked

by Redflag Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:32 pm

astra wrote:Conservative MEP Roger Helmer has defected to UKIP as "UKIP better reflect Conservative values than Cameron"

Don't know that I'm so keen on the ukip now!

Have just seen that been announced on the TV news, it just goes to prove there is little difference between the Tories and UKIP.

by oftenwrong Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:55 pm

UKIP is the militant wing of the Conservative Party

by trevorw2539 Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:49 pm

Phil Hornby wrote:UKIP and the BNP are full of folk who would gladly vote Tory if the tablets wear off...

Sh. You'll give the game away. Laughing

by witchfinder Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:02 am

On the right of British politics you have the Conservative party nearest the centre, and the BNP the furtherest to the right, somewhere in between is UKIP, and they are most definately more right wing than the Conservative Party.

Some lesser known facts about UKIP are that they are extremely hostile to immigration and immigrants; They have openly declared that they would sweep away many employment rights including the right to claim unfair dismissal, and they have even indicated opposition to the minimum wage.

But what complicates matters in British politics, is the fact that though the Tory Party is "centre-right", it does contain within its ranks many members who would be more comfortable in UKIP.

The Labour Party modernised and threw out the far left, the Conservative Party has not changed, its zenophobes and "hang em & flog em" brigade are still all there.

by Rollo Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:24 am

UKIP are making serious ground and are no longer a 1 policy party. I had a listen to their spring conference yesterday and was quite impressed. They have made new intern Roger Helmer their minister for business and manufacturing, another good listen and rather amusing was Godfrey Bloom very good and very funny speech. You could look at all their policies here www.ukip.org one party we would not want is the greens, they would have us paying £8 a gallon and increases by same every year.

by **Ivan** Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:52 am

Welcome to the forum, Rollo; thank you for responding to my e-mail.

UKIP could well become the third party, as the Lib Dems disintegrate and lose any remaining credibility. However, I don't think that Roger Helmer - a man who wants all rioters shot on sight - is much of a 'catch' for them.

You may know Frances Fox, who is a member of 'Cutting Edge'. She contested Peterborough for UKIP in the last general election.

by witchfinder Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:58 am

Who knows what the future holds ?

One possible and very credible scenario is that the Tories become increasingly unpopular with hard line Tories, sounds odd but its allready happening.

The Liberal Democrats are to a degree acting as an "arrester" on many hard line Conservative ideas and policies, the right of the Tory party is becoming more and more restless with the inability of the present party to implement such things as abolition of the ECHR as one example.

The Tory MEP Roger Helmer been a good example of a party member who is dissolutioned with the present leadership, Mr Helmer has defected this weekend to UKIP.

There are some signs, and some evidence that UKIP are now pushing for third place in British politics, the opinion polls point to the possibility, as do several election results, the Lib Dems made their bed and now they must lie in it - as they say.

by oftenwrong Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:58 am

It's not really difficult for wannabe politicians to present themselves as preferable to those actually in Office. Look how the Tories puffed themselves up at the last General Election, and how they've had to make so many u-turns subsequently.
UKIP most decidely is a one-trick pony, because any of the other Parties is equally capable of performing the rest of their platform.

by **Ivan** Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:11 pm

The Liberal Democrats are to a degree acting as an "arrester" on many hard line Conservative ideas and policies

You are joking! This is the most right-wing government in living memory. The Lib Dems are allowing NHS privatisation, the removal of benefits from disabled children, the forcing of the terminally ill to take fitness-to-work tests and condoning virtual slavery in supermarkets. Now they want to privatise the police force.

The Lib Dems boast that the tax threshold has been raised because of them - but that's been more than offset by the hike in VAT, which hurts the lowest paid disproportionately, something which Clegg warned about and then supported.

How long do you think the coalition will last? - Page 4 4502514442_0fb135d0fa

How long do you think the coalition will last? - Page 4 4502514442_0fb135d0fa

by oftenwrong Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:24 pm

The Liberal Party and its children the Lib-Dems have consistently been most at ease sitting on the sidelines criticising the Party in power.
They haven't adjusted well to the reality of taking responsibility for their actions.

by witchfinder Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:19 pm

Ivan

I agree that the Lib Dems have stabbed us all in the back, I have stated so on many ocassions, and I have also stated that they have abandoned many of their liberal principles, I have refered to them as "turn-coats" and as part of the "unholy alliance".

But there are still some issues where the political gap bewtween Conservatives and Lib Dems is so wide, that it is not possible to bridge it.
I personaly never would have believed that the Lib Dems would ever allow privatisation into the NHS, and I find it astonishing that Vince Cable can stand up and defend errosion of employment rights.

But I am convinced that without the Lib Dems, the Tories would have gone much further, would have been even nastier, and the ECHR for example would be on its way out as we speak.

by **Ivan** Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:04 pm

Without the Lib Dems, the Tories would have been a minority government, unable to do any of the dastardly things that Clegg has allowed them to do.

And they wouldn't have called another election after six months. Firstly, that would have annoyed many voters. Secondly, if the Tories couldn't win a majority against a Labour leader as unpopular as poor old Gordon (who looks better by the day when compared to Cameron and his sleaze-ridden gang of thugs), they wouldn't have won a majority against another Labour leader.

by Redflag Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:19 pm

Ivan wrote:
The Liberal Democrats are to a degree acting as an "arrester" on many hard line Conservative ideas and policies
You are joking! This is the most right-wing government in living memory. The Lib Dems are allowing NHS privatisation, the removal of benefits from disabled children, the forcing of the terminally ill to take fitness-to-work tests and condoning virtual slavery in supermarkets. Now they want to privatise the police force.

The Lib Dems boast that the tax threshold has been raised because of them - but that's been more than offset by the hike in VAT, which hurts the lowest paid disproportionately, something which Clegg warned about and then supported.

Good post Ivan agree with all you have said, and now they want to privatize the Police Force with private companies that control the bouncers outside our Pubs and Clubs and they have been accused at times about taking the law into there own hands, what is going to happen to our Law and Order once they take over criminals getting away with murder lets hope they start with this Gov't.

by Ivanhoe Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:29 pm

Ivan wrote:Without the Lib Dems, the Tories would have been a minority government, unable to do any of the dastardly things that Clegg has allowed them to do.

And they wouldn't have called another election after six months. Firstly, that would have annoyed many voters. Secondly, if the Tories couldn't win a majority against a Labour leader as unpopular as poor old Gordon (who looks better by the day when compared to Cameron and his sleaze-ridden gang of thugs), they wouldn't have won a majority against another Labour leader.

""Without the Lib Dems, the Tories would have been a minority government, unable to do any of the dastardly things that Clegg has allowed them to do"".

Precisely Ivan.

by astra Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:29 pm

The highway code is going to have to be re written

"Show your Driving Licence to a police officer in Uniform" or words to that effect!

A police officer's uniform means nothing now, you can go to a fancy dress shop and pick up a half decent first look replica for 'COPPERS'

A policeman's lot is not a happy one!

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