To hate Jews is to hate God

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To hate Jews is to hate God.

If you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, then you must believe that God planned for it and set the conditions even before the earth was formed. If as most believe, the Jews were the cause of the sacrifice, then one must believe that God put the notion and desire to kill Jesus in the Jewish hearts. Jews then were God’s tools in carrying out God’s plan. Jews then should be venerated just as Jesus is because Jesus and Jews were required and caused by God to participate in the sacrifice. They were all doing God’s will and not their own.

Jesus was a Jew and to hate Jews means that Jesus is also hated. The church has historically persecuted Jews and only repented for their actions in 2011 with the pope acknowledging that not all Jews should be hated. Just those directly involved in the sacrifice of Jesus. Ignoring of course that they were charged directly by God to be and do what God wanted.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/jews-not-responsible-for-death-of-christ-pope-says-49267/

Why then have Christians historically hated Jews, and by inference, hate the Jew part of God/Jesus the Jew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

The weird twist to this history is that the Christian right who hates Jews the most, is now the ones pushing for funding of the Jewish homeland to fulfill prophesy.

Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL

NO Hitler like so many others, SAID he was a Christian.

I could SAY I was the King of Siam.

Many people claim they are Christians for there own ends that does not make them Christians.

A Christian is one who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings.

So what happened to god then if you only believe in in jesus? polyglide

I believe in God through Jesus.

Yep I did mean many SPLENDORED THING, SORRY.

polyglide wrote:NO Hitler like so many others, SAID he was a Christian.

I could SAY I was the King of Siam.

Many people claim they are Christians for there  own ends that does not make them Christians.

A Christian is one who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings.

Sorry, mate, but that argument simply does not work.   Other than it smacks of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy   I would also point out that those persons in the RC church who were crying 'Oh God, Oh God' as they buggered altar boys   probably thought they were heaven bound. A Christian is someone who believes they are a Christian. On a slightly mocking note   (not of you by the by  ) if we were to go by your definition we could probably number the Christians  in the world on our fingers and toes... and the number of Muslims would be countable on a thief's hands assuming you could find them  .

polyglide wrote:NO Hitler like so many others, SAID he was a Christian.

I could SAY I was the King of Siam.

Many people claim they are Christians for there  own ends that does not make them Christians.

A Christian is one who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings.

That's fine if you're also happy to accept that there are virtually no 'Christians' and the vast majority who claim to be are hypocrites. I can live with that tbh.

polyglide wrote:
Many people claim they are Christians for there  own ends that does not make them Christians.

A Christian is one who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings.

If people make untrue claims regarding their religion, what should I make of your claim about what defines a Christian?

polyglide forgot god's involvement a little yes Norm?

Shirina wrote:

Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD wrote:However one could premise that getting killed as a pacifist doesn't always negate any influence that pacifists views can have on future generations, Ghandi for instance.

Ghandi was fortunate enough to be dealing with a relatively moral civilization, that being, of course, the British Empire. If Ghandi had tried the same pacifist tactics against, say, the Nazis or the Japanese, he and everyone who followed him would have been wiped out.

Individual pacifism is okay, I suppose, though I wouldn't want to be reliant on a pacifist, especially if I were a child or other person who could not adequately protect herself.

There is evil afoot in the world, and by evil, I simply mean those who have decided to abandon the "social contract" that the majority of us adhere to. Nations like Nazi Germany, Tojo's Japan, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Saddam's Iraq, Mussolini's Italy, Khomeini's Iran, Kim Il Jung's North Korea, Stalin's Soviet Union ... these nations do not respect pacifism as it was regarded as pathetically weak. Like it or not, as much as I abhor violence as well, there is a time and a place for it. As a parent, for instance, you have a moral obligation to protect your children, and if violence is needed to do so, there is nothing immoral about it. What would truly be immoral is to stand back and allow your children to come to harm because you held too strictly to a belief system. It would be no different than those religious loons who refuse to take their children to the doctor because their belief states that modern medicine is bad.

Incidentally, during the 80's when the Soviets were rampaging in Afghanistan, the Taliban tried using terrorism against the Soviets. The Red Army lost a total of three men to terrorism. Why so few? Because the Soviets sent in professional assassins to take out the terrorists' families. The Taliban, believe it or not, both respected and feared this action and never again waged a war of terror against them. But what about the West? Well ... how many tens of thousands have we lost to Islamic terrorism? They perceive the West as too weak, too soft ... and unwilling to do what is needed to put and end to their attacks.

Over and over again, Western nations have been victims of more aggressive and less moral agents because those agents believed (not altogether wrongly) that the West is a paper tiger, too soft and pampered to deal with large casualties in any combat situation. The Japanese believed this, which gave them the impetus to attack Pearl Harbor; Al Qaeda believed it to; so did the North Vietnamese, which is why America had to pull out of there after 10 years of fighting. The NVA knew that if they killed enough Americans, we would throw down our weapons and go home.

Pacifism does not influence the people that are truly dangerous; it only impresses and influences those that were never your enemy in the first place.

I agree, as I did in that post, the sentence you've quoted was an afterthought really. One hears stories of tremendous heroism and sacrifice among the German population of people who allowed themselves to be destroyed rather than surrendering to Nazism, they fought even thought they knew they would be destroyed. Courage has a price, sometimes the ultimate price.

polyglide wrote:
NO Hitler like so many others, SAID he was a Christian.

I could SAY I was the King of Siam.

Many people claim they are Christians for there own ends that does not make them Christians.

A Christian is one who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings.
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You see you've offered an opinion, now they felt they were christians, some people might well feel you're not a christian. As far as I am concerned you're just cherry piking who you'll accept so you can validate your earlier spurious assertion that anyone who believes in Jesus will lead a decent life. You're even trying to qualify it now, by adding more requirements. There are a great many people who not only don't believe in Jesus as a deity, but don't believe in any deity and they still lead decent lives.

polyglide wrote:I believe in God through Jesus.

You believe that God is Jesus or otherwise you will be regarded as a heretic by 99.99% of Christianity.

Which is it?

Heretic

To hate Jews is to hate the Torah, Jesus preached the Torah.

Tosh mate, now as an atheist I do not believe in god or that jesus died on the cross, I do not hate jewish people or their beliefs. JC was supposed to have preached to moses and the jewish people on mount sinai was he not, and moses wrote it down including the ten commandments to form the torah. Which many jews worship too up until this day, am I right?

stu, I think you're getting your OT and NT all mixed together. Moses is OT and Jesus is NT. Jesus never preached to Moses. Moses went up into the mountains, landed in a very large mushroom patch and was thus entertained for the next 40 days and 40 nights by voices and glow-in-the-dark juniper bushes.

Looks like a recheck is needed snowy, but that's what a copy of the torah told me luv thanks for the info. 

Evening stu,

I believe most independent historians accept there is sufficient historical evidence to suggest Jeshua ben Joseph( Jesus) did exist, he was a Jewish Rabbi and he was executed by Pontius Pilate.

If one is going to invent a mythical figure one would not invent one with so many variations and contradictions, there were over 50 differing gospels and there are not over 30,000 Christian denominations for nothing, hardly a consistent fabrication.
Plus in one of his letters, Paul mentions meeting the brothers and sisters of Jesus as an off the cuff side issue, if he was lying to bolster the myth of Jesus he would have made the meeting central to his letter.

I believe he was crucified for sedition in Jerusalem by a well documented sadist called Pontius Pilate, Jesus was an apocalypticist, wandering about prophesying the end of the world and oppression, when Rome was both the world and the oppressor was going to get him noticed in an occupied Jerusalem during of all times Passover.

Tomorrow I am going to meet a friend of mine that I now see only a couple of times a year. He was a street preacher for about ten years and one of the most sincere people I have ever met. He used to tear himself apart over tiny differences in doctrine between churches. He is a radical after the manner of Jesus and I recall him being arrested (but not charged) on two occasions, once for protesting at an Orange Lodge Orange Lodgemarch In Liverpool, he had a banner claiming that the Orange Lodge were not Christians and he wondered why people threw bricks at him, he was arrested for his own safety. In like manner he was arrested for holding up a banner at the Popes visit to Liverpool claiming the Pope wasn't a Christian. He sounds like a nutter but he's a really nice guy.

After 10 years as a street preacher he went into the real world and trained and qualified as a nurse. Sadly he witnessed and reacted to a practice that he found unacceptable. I say sadly because going through the process of whistle blowing in the NHS (National Health Service) was so stressful that it lead to him suffering a nervous breakdown. He is now recovered, almost anyway, and nearly back to his old self.

The practice that he found so unacceptable was the ability of nurses in geriatric wards to decide without input from doctors which patients should get nil by mouth, in other words starve to death. Why the practice had not been stopped decades before could only be understood by the hell my friend had to go through in speaking against it. The same qualities that made him an effective street preacher gave him the tenacity to not let go as the entire bureaucratic structure of the NHS over a period of about eight years tried to silence him before eventually having to admit he was right and then stopped the practice.

We have been friends nearly thirty years and it was him that first gave me the nickname 'Heretic'. He is one of the most genuine people I know and know what kind of impact genuine people can have.

I have to believe that Jesus was a genuine person and he did what he did for all the right reasons. I sometimes wonder what kind of world it would of been (especially in Europe) if Jesus had not lived. No Christianity goes without saying, No Islam is a real possibility too.

Worth thinking about.

Heretic

In the recheck that I did it was god that preached to moses on mount sinai, giving the jewish people the 5 books of moses 613mitzyot and the 10 commandments in which to believe and worship, is it the pentateuch? that is from the torah page jewish scriptures etc is that wrong?

I have to believe that Jesus was a genuine person and he did what he did for all the right reasons. I sometimes wonder what kind of world it would of been (especially in Europe) if Jesus had not lived. No Christianity goes without saying, No Islam is a real possibility too.

I believe Jesus life and death was not the problem, the problem was his teachings were corrupted and politicised by Rome, and ultimately Catholicism, the religion of Jesus became a religion ABOUT Jesus.

A lot of religions become corrupted Tosh, you only have to look at the vatican to see that as the main example do you not i'm afraid.

Greatest I am wrote:To hate Jews is to hate God.

If you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, then you must believe that God planned for it and set the conditions even before the earth was formed. If as most believe, the Jews were the cause of the sacrifice, then one must believe that God put the notion and desire to kill Jesus in the Jewish hearts. Jews then were God’s tools in carrying out God’s plan. Jews then should be venerated just as Jesus is because Jesus and Jews were required and caused by God to participate in the sacrifice. They were all doing God’s will and not their own.

Jesus was a Jew and to hate Jews means that Jesus is also hated.  The church has historically persecuted Jews and only repented for their actions in 2011 with the pope acknowledging that not all Jews should be hated. Just those directly involved in the sacrifice of Jesus. Ignoring of course that they were charged directly by God to be and do what God wanted.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/jews-not-responsible-for-death-of-christ-pope-says-49267/

Why then have Christians historically hated Jews, and by inference, hate the Jew part of God/Jesus the Jew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

The weird twist to this history is that the Christian right who hates Jews the most, is now the ones pushing for funding of the Jewish homeland to fulfill prophesy.

Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah.  Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL

even if one doesn't believe any of that there is still the question of why some early Christians wished to blame the Jews for the death of Jesus and why Jesus was crucified.

he was only actively preaching, as far as we know, for at most 3 years and most of that in small settlements around Galilee. hardly bringing him into conflict with anyone of great importance or preaching anything that would get him killed by either the religious or the political power base. not like John the Baptist!

even his antics in Jerusalem during passover celebrations hardly seem to warrant more than being flogged and chucked into jail for a while. everyone knew that public execution had the potential to create martyrs so why bother especially at such a volatile time in Jerusalem! as far as we know his trial was not public so nothing said would have any direct consequence.

the only explanation i can think of is a personal grudge on the part of Caiaphas. but one hell of a grudge!

as for early Gentile Christians putting the blame on the Jewish nation for Jesus death that really looks to be racially motivated. maybe at least partially because Judaism was the only other monotheistic religion at the time and was present and well established in many cities. a case of getting rid of the competition.

Good afternoon timeout,

I think the reasons for blaming the Jews were twofold, first it was obvious by the time Mark was written no Jew was ever going to accept the quasi Messiah status of Jesus, it blatantly contradicted the Torah, the demonisation was just part of the separation process, Christianity began as a Jew only sect and this was rather inconvenient to pagan converts.
Secondly, one can see the problem of selling a demi-god myth throughout the Roman empire when it was the Romans who had executed him for sedition, hardly going to be popular or safe to sell this religion if Rome was to blame.

In my opinion the blaming of the Jews was negative campaigning and an attempt to legitimise the claims of gentile Christianity, the early followers of Jesus were Jews who desperately tried to squeeze Jesus into Judaism but he didn't fit, once this became definite it was time to exclude Jews from the process. By the time John was written at the end of the century there were probably no Jewish supporters of Jesus alive, now there was no need to placate his Jewish followers, he suddenly became a pagan demi-god.

No true Christian thinks he/she is without sin, what they do attempt to do is be as sin free as possible.

Even were you not a Christian, the principle would be of great benifit to the world as a whole.

You can argue till you are blue in the face and bring up all kinds of reasons to refute Christianity but those who have actaully seen God at work amongst all the evil that man has brought into the world have no doubts whatsoever.

polyglide,

I think most humans accept they are not perfect, we inherited our imperfections from our animal genes.

Nobody has seen God at work, and I mean nobody.

polyglide wrote:
You can argue till you are blue in the face and bring up all kinds of reasons to refute Christianity but those who have actaully seen God at work amongst all the evil that man has brought into the world have no doubts whatsoever.

I agree that you can't prove Jesus never lived / wasn't the son of God or that God doesn't exist. You may logically argue that, but that's a different matter. By the same token though, you can't prove the opposite either. The claim to have seen God at work is a rather empty one which cannot be proven either. You can interpret nature etc. as being God's work but you certainly can't prove it to be the case.

polyglide wrote:No true Christian thinks he/she is without sin, what they do attempt to do is be as sin free as possible.

What precisely is "sin," polyglide? Because Christianity is an awful, awful, awful place from which to decide what is sin and what isn't. The reason is because Christianity is obsessed with sex. THAT is the big sin - sexual indiscretion. Here's a really good example:

Here in America, we have a lot of TV evangelicals who are conning, bilking, and deceiving the elderly out of their retirement. With that money, these evangelicals buy fleets of luxury cars, live in opulent mansions, stay in five-star hotels, and live like royalty. Meanwhile, the elderly folks who send in their last nickel suddenly can't afford to keep the heat turned on or to buy their next meal. Not only is this practice flagrantly unethical, it is certainly not anywhere close to being Christian-like. But no one cares about that. No. The only time these TV evangelicals are ousted is when they are caught doing something sexual - like getting caught with a prostitute or engaging in a homosexual affair. THEN all of the sudden people sit up and take notice of the horrible, sinful preacher ... and only THEN is he forced to retire in disgrace.

And this is because Christianity blusters, bloviates, babbles, and blathers about sex, sex, sex, and more sex. Apparently Christianity doesn't give two shits about ethical behavior, true morality, and the much more harmful sins like cheating, embezzlement, theft by deception, and coersion - all of which are committed by many preachers both on the air and off. Nor is Christianity all that interested in things like domestic violence, pedophilia, rape, and certainly not murder. As long as the man has sex with his wife in the missionary position with the lights turned on, it's okay if the man comes home and "puts his little woman in her place" if she fails to submit to her husband like the Bible tells her to.

Christianity has been corrupted by sexual repression, and if the Bible wasn't so obsessed with sex, and if Christians had ignored the ramblings of St. Augustine (why was he so important anyway), perhaps Christianity MIGHT bring at least a few positive things into our world.

But as I said elsewhere, when Christians think of sin, they don't think of lying, cheating, violent acts, rape, or even murder. They think of banal and vapid sins like drinking too much, gambling, smoking a joint, going to parties, listening to rock 'n roll music, looking at a Playboy centerfold, or dropping an F-bomb. And of course the various sexual issues: fornication, cohabitation, adultery, sex before marriage, homosexuality, and contraception.

polyglide wrote:but those who have actaully seen God at work

Who are "those," polyglide? Holocaust victims? The children at Sandy Hook? The people at that mall in Kenya? I don't see God at work anywhere at all. It's despicable to me when some self-righteous Christian credits God for some trivial thing -- like this one Christian who credited God for getting a seat next to his son on an airplane. As if God found this person's seating arrangement so important that he had to directly intervene, but sat on his hands when real evil was afoot.

Nice try, there, polyglide ... but no cigar. No cigarette, either ... not even the cheap kind that you have to roll yourself.

polyglide wrote:No true Christian thinks he/she is without sin,

The only true Christian died on a cross between two thieves

polyglide wrote:what they do attempt to do is be as sin free as possible.

Really? I don't think so unless by possible you mean less (sin free) than the rest of society

polyglide wrote:Even were you not a Christian, the principle would be of great benifit to the world as a whole.

Again really? Given the lack of success that Christians have with your idea I think the rest of the world would be better off making it's, admittedly, slow progress

polyglide wrote:You can argue till you are blue in the face and bring up all kinds of reasons to refute Christianity but those who have actaully seen God at work amongst all the evil that man has brought into the world have no doubts whatsoever.

except that it all seems to be based on wishful thinking.

My experience of most Christians I know is they are very good at playing the good little church goer while everything is hunky dory in their life but the moment their world begins to fall apart they are more likely to resort to 'unchristian behaviour' than their secular counterparts. The evidence I have for this is in the single example where I could see Christians and no-Christians undergo the same hardship was during the period when a number of my friends were made redundant by the same employer. Two out of five of the Christians resorted first of all to overdrafts and loans to prop up their lifestyles before resorting to crime. The non-Christians faired much better with only one resorting to the tactics of those two Christians out of a sample of seven. Christians seem to cope well with minor stress when times are good and are living in Cloud-Cuckoo-Land better than a lot of non-Christians but when the pressure is cranked up they fare very much less well.

I know this is not a large enough group to be classified as anything more than a straw poll but I think there is beginning to be a trend showing itself. I don't know of any authoritative studies by un-biased organisations that shows the relative performance of Christians and non-Christians under stress but if someone knows of one please let me know.

Heretic.

There is a psychiatric reason for this, Heretic and it stems from people's expectations and delusions. When life is good, god made it so but when life is bad it is either the sinner or Satan that made it so and Christians become very quickly disillusioned when they find that their beliefs are not as real or true as the bible, the church or other Christians make them out to be. Faced with real life catastrophe, they wonder why all their prayer, remorse, begging doesn't return the desired result. It's because no one is there.

The 2 most selfish people I ever worked with were both self-confessed born again Christians.

snowyflake wrote:There is a psychiatric reason for this, Heretic and it stems from people's expectations and delusions. When life is good, god made it so but when life is bad it is either the sinner or Satan that made it so and Christians become very quickly disillusioned when they find that their beliefs are not as real or true as the bible, the church or other Christians make them out to be. Faced with real life catastrophe, they wonder why all their prayer, remorse, begging doesn't return the desired result. It's because no one is there.

The 2 most selfish people I ever worked with were both self-confessed born again Christians.

There is a part of me that was quite sad to realise that atheism was the only road forward for me, I sort of wished at the time that I could return to past certainties and plant my feet quite firmly on something. It took me a while to find my feet as an atheist, specifically what could I now rely on as a standard to live by.

In the end for me it came down to this. What were the qualities I most admired in other people boiled down to their basic constituents? The only answer I could come up with was this:- That the most important thing in a man was his ability to match what he did to what he said he would do. That was it, in a word integrity.

I had to find a way of achieving this and to begin with it was quite simple, say very little and commit to less. Slowly over time I began to have some confidence that I could achieve some things and was able to commit to those things. People did realise I had changed from the time I was a Christian as I no longer promised the earth and failed to deliver. I became someone, over the course of a few years, that people relied on because if I said I would do something it was as good as done already. I remember getting fed up of arranging to meet people and them showing up very late. I sorted this out by telling people I would always arrive early to a meeting but would disappear one minute after the appointed time if they had not showed up. I know they thought I was joking but when they had not arrived at the due time I did exactly what I said I would do and went off to do something else. Within a few weeks they started to show up at the appointed hour or usually before hand. One of them shared with me that though they were initially annoyed at me they had since realised that being on time to meet me led them onto being on time for everybody and they thanked me.

Integrity is such a small word but it can mean everything when we talk about a man or woman, if they have it then we admire them (even if we don't like them) but if they don't have it then we rarely waste any time on them.

Heretic

God answers all prayers.

He is most certainly there.

God does not give everyone what they ask, he replies in the manner appropriate to the circumstances, along with the agreement he has with Satan.

If someone has a loved one at the point of death and they ask for them to be spared, God may not grant the request for reasons we do not know but would give the one who made the request the energy etc; to deal with the unfortunate circumstance.

The small matter that prayer seems to have no effect on the outcome notwithstanding.

polyglide wrote:God answers all prayers.

He is most certainly there.

God does not give everyone what they ask, he replies in the manner appropriate to the circumstances, along with the agreement he has with Satan.

If someone has a loved one at the point of death and they ask for them to be spared, God may not grant the request for reasons we do not know but would give the one who made the request the energy etc; to deal with the unfortunate circumstance.

On another site I have just reminded people of two major US studies into the eficacy of prayer... NONE! but the saddest thing was that if the prayed for person Knew about the praying they often took longer to get well. This was put down to "Performance Related Stress". They felt they were letting down God and the praying people by not getting better quicker.

Poor God, he works hard for 6 days every week and on a Sunday just as he starts to put his feet up, millions of worshipers start calling him for favours


No rest for the wicked.

He must have done summat bloody awful eh Tosh?

stu wrote:He must have done summat bloody awful eh Tosh?

Killed his son.

 Deserved it then Dan eh.  

Killed his son.

There is some debate whether he killed his son or himself, or both, it's called theology.

I always try and put things into a little perspective when Christians start babbling on about God, the Universe, Earth, humans, Jesus and a bit of desert 2,000 years ago, here is an estimate of the number of planets in our universe.

With at least 200 billion galaxies out there (and possibly even more), we’re very likely talking about a Universe filled with around 10 to the power of 24 planets, or, for those of you who like it written out, around 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets in our observable Universe.

Now how can any rational mind think the universe was created for us.

Hi Tosh. That puts me in mind of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Blue_Dot

I know God works in mysterious ways, but why does it take an entire universe to create one species in his image, what is all the rest of the universe actually for?

Those that believe in theistic evolution must answer this, if God is powerful enough to predetermine the evolution of the universe, the sun, the earth, life and eventually humans, why did it take him 13.7 billion years to achieve his final goal ?

I mean it took him nearly 9 billion years to form the earth for goodness sake, sounds slovenly or slipshod to me, certainly a poor designer, too much wastage of time and effort.

Dan, one of my favorite clips, wasted on complete loonballs who think God created everything 6000 years ago just for them, religion has obstructed human enlightenment for over 2000 years.

Tosh wrote:I know God works in mysterious ways, but why does it take an entire universe to create one species in his image, what is all the rest of the universe actually for?

Those that believe in theistic evolution must answer this, if God is powerful enough to predetermine the evolution of the universe, the sun, the earth, life and eventually humans, why did it take him 13.7 billion years to achieve his final goal ?

I mean it took him nearly 9 billion years to form the earth for goodness sake, sounds slovenly or slipshod to me, certainly a poor designer, too much wastage of time and effort.

Ignoring all the things wrong with the concept of God outside the universe and I could bore you for quite a long post on the issue, then if we accept the premise God is also outside time, therefore all time happens simultaneously from his perspective.