To hate Jews is to hate God

First topic message reminder :

To hate Jews is to hate God.

If you believe in the sacrifice of Jesus, then you must believe that God planned for it and set the conditions even before the earth was formed. If as most believe, the Jews were the cause of the sacrifice, then one must believe that God put the notion and desire to kill Jesus in the Jewish hearts. Jews then were God’s tools in carrying out God’s plan. Jews then should be venerated just as Jesus is because Jesus and Jews were required and caused by God to participate in the sacrifice. They were all doing God’s will and not their own.

Jesus was a Jew and to hate Jews means that Jesus is also hated. The church has historically persecuted Jews and only repented for their actions in 2011 with the pope acknowledging that not all Jews should be hated. Just those directly involved in the sacrifice of Jesus. Ignoring of course that they were charged directly by God to be and do what God wanted.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/jews-not-responsible-for-death-of-christ-pope-says-49267/

Why then have Christians historically hated Jews, and by inference, hate the Jew part of God/Jesus the Jew?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ott15j2KwQ&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoHP-f-_F9U

The weird twist to this history is that the Christian right who hates Jews the most, is now the ones pushing for funding of the Jewish homeland to fulfill prophesy.

Most Jews do not believe that Jesus was the messiah. Is the Christian right just funding Jews to help drive them to destruction at the hands of God?

Jews tend not to read the O. T. the way Christians do. Are Christian interpretations of Jewish text superior or inferior to the Jewish interpretation of their own myths?

Regards
DL

Tosh wrote:I know God works in mysterious ways, but why does it take an entire universe to create one species in his image, what is all the rest of the universe actually for?

Those that believe in theistic evolution must answer this, if God is powerful enough to predetermine the evolution of the universe, the sun, the earth, life and eventually humans, why did it take him 13.7 billion years to achieve his final goal ?

I mean it took him nearly 9 billion years to form the earth for goodness sake, sounds slovenly or slipshod to me, certainly a poor designer, too much wastage of time and effort.

Ignoring all the things wrong with the concept of God outside the universe and I could bore you for quite a long post on the issue, then if we accept the premise God is also outside time, therefore all time happens simultaneously from his perspective.

As evolution has taken so long to develope, and ie get our species correct at last. Supposedly in his image at last too. It just took him rather a lot of attempts to get it right, until the final attempt.

then if we accept the premise God is also outside time, therefore all time happens simultaneously from his perspective.

Interesting conclusion, not sure it has any basis in logic, if god has no perception of time how did he create something he cannot perceive?

Bellatori wrote:therefore all time happens simultaneously from his perspective.

Which is a rather bizarre conundrum considering Christians frequently speak of "eternity." So if time is eternal and God sees all time simultaneously ... is that even possible?  

My heard hurts.

Tosh wrote:

then if we accept the premise God is also outside time, therefore all time happens simultaneously from his perspective.

Interesting conclusion, not sure it has any basis in logic, if god has no perception of time how did he create something he cannot perceive?

Time exists within the Universe. We know it is constrained by the physics of the Universe - you can travel forward in time by going very fast, time slows for you. Something outside the Universe is unconstrained by time and one can imagine that it would perceive the universe and its time as one object. Having no time means it would have no reference for duration so all time becomes singular. Everything happens at once. Does it make a kind of sense? Yes... Is it real whatever that can mean for status outside time and space... how can we know as we are inside time and space? Bear in mind that fields (and no I don't mean cows and grass) can exist even if there is no space and time though my knowledge of Maths is at its limit here. I did read a couple of books on this but frankly they went way over my head. It was probably the sort of thing Stephen Hawking chats about in his coffee breaks but for me...  

I think all of ours do by now.  

Ì think I get it, if the beginning is a point( singularity) then it remains a point( singularity) in the perception of God.

Tosh wrote:Ì think I get it, if the beginning is a point( singularity) then it remains a point( singularity) in the perception of God.

But can there be an infinite or eternal singularity?

Shirina wrote:

Tosh wrote:Ì think I get it, if the beginning is a point( singularity) then it remains a point( singularity) in the perception of God.

But can there be an infinite or eternal singularity?

Yoga and Hinduism (if I understand them correctly) see the universe as starting off as a point then expanding into infinity before then slowly decreasing back to a point again. It's a sort of breathing for the universe. Some physicists talk of big bangs followed by big crunches, I don't see it as being too different. What I do see as amazing is that the Hindu's got there first though we may in the future as idiotic as we now see creationism.

Heretic

Shirina wrote:

Tosh wrote:Ì think I get it, if the beginning is a point( singularity) then it remains a point( singularity) in the perception of God.

But can there be an infinite or eternal singularity?

Within the universe then yes because there is time within the universe. One of the  things I can visualise but some people have difficulty is what potentially is there outside the universe. Please note I did not say BEFORE the big bang because such a statement is meaningless if time only exists within the universe therefore there cannot be a before in the way that we see time.

Time in the manner we use it is man made.

A day is as a thousand years to God, indicating that there is no such thing as time.

polyglide wrote:Time in the manner we use it is man made.

A day is as a thousand years to God, indicating that there is no such thing as time.

But a day and a millennium are both units of time as we use it. Therefore God perceives time as we do. So there is such a thing as time.

The conclusion I draw is that God is easily bored (and prone to exaggeration).


Alternatively, any period of time is equivalent to any other for something that does not exist.

God does not perseive time as we do and the axample I gave proves that.

polyglide wrote:God does not perseive time as we do and the axample I gave proves that.

Unevidenced assertion is not proof. Neither is an inference which does not follow from the premise.

The manner in which the expression was made indicated that God does not percieve time as we do, the as, being the operative word.

Good morning Bellatori, you are going to drive my mind insane with this stuff.

One of the things I can visualise but some people have difficulty is what potentially is there outside the universe. Please note I did not say BEFORE the big bang because such a statement is meaningless if time only exists within the universe therefore there cannot be a before in the way that we see time.

I suggest both time and SPACE only exist within the universe, I would be very surprised if anyone could visualise " OUTSIDE OF SPACE ", it seems no less meaningless than " BEFORE TIME".

When SH made the statement, there is nothing South of the South Pole, he was referring to a spatial dimension( a point in time AND space). Einstein's general theory of relativity proved space and time were not absolutes but were dynamic quantities shaped by matter and energy in the universe, they are only defined WITHIN the universe.

Now I must lie down, my next door neighbour's dog is telling me to go out and kill people.

The manner in which the expression was made indicated that God does not percieve time as we do, the as, being the operative word.

polyglide,

God said he made the universe in 6 days, this is a perception of time, this proves god exists within time and perceives time as we do, this is not a coincidence.

polyglide wrote:The manner in which the expression was made indicated that God does not percieve time as we do, the as, being the operative word.

You mean that God is incapable of telling the difference between one day and 365,248 days? That's innumeracy. This particular god does not seem to be a particularly sound source of information.

polyglide wrote:Time in the manner we use it is man made.

A day is as a thousand years to God, indicating that there is no such thing as time.

God does not perseive time as we do and the axample I gave proves that.

Prove? Really? I see two claims, I see no evidence, let alone proof.

polyglide wrote:Time in the manner we use it is man made.

A day is as a thousand years to God, indicating that there is no such thing as time.

The same thing is true of pygmy shrews so I believe.

polyglide wrote:Time in the manner we use it is man made.

A day is as a thousand years to God, indicating that there is no such thing as time.

I sure wish you religious types would declare the origins or justification for what you say because otherwise you seem to be pulling 'crap' out of the air.

King James Version (KJV) 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I still disagree with what you're trying to say but now everyone can see why you say it. To just prattle on about stuff that people presume you have no justification for wastes their time and reduces your credibility.

Heretic

Heretic wrote:

polyglide wrote:Time in the manner we use it is man made.

A day is as a thousand years to God, indicating that there is no such thing as time.

I sure wish you religious types would declare the origins or justification for what you say because otherwise you seem to be pulling 'crap' out of the air.

King James Version (KJV) 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

I still disagree with what you're trying to say but now everyone can see why you say it. To just prattle on about stuff that people presume you have no justification for wastes their time and reduces your credibility.

Heretic

No offence here, but what credibility? He's entitled to believe whatever he wishes, and to go into any public forum and say so, but expecting others to respect anything beyond his right to believe it is not a right. I find his beliefs a little absurd, as is my right.

It is a truism that time seems to speed up as we get older. I'm sure we're all familiar with this strange phenomena. When you're a child, even an hour seems like a really long time, but as an adult an hour flashes past in an eyeblink -- well, unless you're at work or sitting in a waiting room. Then a strange temporal anomaly occurs whereby your perception of time slows to a crawl while time itself is still speeding by.

Therefore, if a thousand years is like one day to God, well, it only proves that God has been around so long that time goes by even faster for him. It shows that, were we to live for 3,000 years, our perception of time would continue to accelerate on a linear scale until we, too, would see a thousand years flash by in what would seem like a day.

Yeah, that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. Until a better one comes along.

Shirina wrote:
Therefore, if a thousand years is like one day to God, well, it only proves that God has been around so long that time goes by even faster for him. It shows that, were we to live for 3,000 years, our perception of time would continue to accelerate on a linear scale until we, too, would see a thousand years flash by in what would seem like a day.

Yeah, that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.   Until a better one comes along.

Shirina,

The half-quote that polyglide used implies exactly the opposite. "One day is as a thousand years" indicates subjective time passing very slowly. Perhaps God is a child?

Tantrums, no sense of proportion, egocentric...hmm.

I will second Sheldon's point of view on this one, ie polyglide's point of view is rather absurd at times and those times are quite often.

I never understand how polyglide knows so much about what God thinks or perceives? Does he have a bat-phone to God or something?

For a deity who never shows himself or speaks to anyone except through biblical scripture which is down to interpretation, (or some high-power hallucinogenics) how the heck does polyglide get to speak so authoritatively on God's behalf?

Maybe I've hit the nail on the proverbial head eh? (re: high-power hallucinogens?)

either that or he's dead and still dreaming there is such a person as he rots in his grave.

snowyflake wrote:Maybe I've hit the nail on the proverbial head eh? (re: high-power hallucinogens?)

Be careful, it might be a very small head and a very big hammer.

Heretic

see what I mean Heretic?

polyglide wrote:A day is as a thousand years to God, indicating that there is no such thing as time.

Just like when you go to Narnia? Are you making this up as you go, by the way?

If you believe in time, then just explain exactly what it is.

The way we calculate time is purely man made.

60 minutes to the hour etc;

Why not 120 minutes to the hour?.

polyglide wrote:If you believe in time, then just explain exactly what it is.

The way we calculate time is purely man made.

60 minutes to the hour etc;

Why not 120 minutes to the hour?.

The units of 60 date back to early Babylonian time. There is no particular reason for it other than 60 seemed to them to be a very useful number because it has so many divisors. The nature of time in terms of direction is determined by Entropy and the second law of thermodynamics.

polyglide wrote:If you believe in time, then just explain exactly what it is.

The way we calculate time is purely man made.

60 minutes to the hour etc;

Why not 120 minutes to the hour?.

There are practical and historical reasons why time units have evolved as they have but that's beside the point. I.e. how does the above explain in anyway how you 'know' how God's perceives time?

Are you making this up as you go, by the way?

Morning Dan, the old saying "there is no such thing as an original idea " certainly applies to the Bible.
The Jewish Scriptures are like a crossbreed of the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh and the Egyptian book of the dead, unsurprising since Abraham came from Ur and Moses came from Egypt.
The NT fares no better, Resurrections, Virgin births, water into wine etc are straight from the Dionysus myth,an immortal son of Zeus, in fact the parallels are uncanny.

Even the early Christian Elders could not ignore the earlier similarities and produced an excuse which borders on certifiable, seemingly God invented the earlier myths to test people's faith or some other such nonsense.

I think the main point is this, anyone who believes the Bible is inerrant and should be taken as the literal word of God, should not have their hands free. Evangelicals are in my opinion bat shit crazy, and their continued existence in the developed world in 2013 speaks volumes about the susceptibility of the human mind to believe anything.

My sister and brother in law took offense some weeks ago when I called their belief bordering on moronic, they think the moon landing was fake !!!
6% believe this to be the case, which is a significant figure in one way, seemingly 6% of any population are capable of believing anything extraordinary.

Tosh wrote:

Are you making this up as you go, by the way?

Morning Dan, the old saying "there is no such thing as an original idea " certainly applies to the Bible.
The Jewish Scriptures are like a crossbreed of the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh and the Egyptian book of the dead, unsurprising since Abraham came from Ur and Moses came from Egypt.
The NT fares no better, Resurrections, Virgin births, water into wine etc are straight from the Dionysus myth,an immortal son of Zeus, in fact the parallels are uncanny.

Even the early Christian Elders could not ignore the earlier similarities and produced an excuse which borders on certifiable, seemingly God invented the earlier myths to test people's faith or some other such nonsense.

I think the main point is this, anyone who believes the Bible is inerrant and should be taken as the literal word of God, should not have their hands free. Evangelicals are in my opinion bat shit crazy, and their continued existence in the developed world in 2013 speaks volumes about the susceptibility of the human mind to believe anything.

My sister and brother in law took offense some weeks ago when I called their belief bordering on moronic, they think the moon landing was fake !!!
6% believe this to be the case, which is a significant figure in one way, seemingly 6% of our population are capable of believing anything extraordinary.

You encounter a lot of people on the internet who will seemingly believe anything with one proviso: that it differs from the official version of events. Ironically, they tend to call anyone anyone who challenges this naive etc. ("sheeple" being a favourite name), even though they accept stuff when the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming and/or when they have very little to back up their claims. I totally accept that there are probably very high level conspiracies taking place whereby the rich stay richer (and get richer and so on) but that doesn't mean Elvis shot JFK (that's a satirical conspiracy theory which featured in the Viz many years ago which place 'the King' at the grassy knoll  ).

If this is not enough to cast doubt on the veracity of Scripture, there have been many early transcripts of the NT discovered which clearly demonstrate the King James Bible was altered, amended and errant !!

Google Professor Bart Ehrman, a former evangelical biblical scholar whose research of the original Greek manuscripts convinced him the NT could not be inerrant.

Dr. Ehrman gives Critical Academic Analysis of the Bible Errors & Contradictions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twX5HlBDZEI

Dan, humans want to be different, our individuality is a key part of our status and identity, the very fact people like Uri Geller and David Icke are multi millionaires tells you how strong this instinct can be in some humans. It goes way beyond gullibility, bad reasoning, anti-authority or lack of education, it is a psychological desire to be somehow unique from the mainstream.

I researched the religiosity of the Bible Belt, the biggest threat comes from the internet educating the uninformed, guess where evangelical apologists concentrate their efforts, the internet, it is all about money in America.

When I hear the 9/11 conspiracy theories I worry about the human mind, and it makes me wonder if we can be trusted with the freedoms we crave, maybe the elite are right to keep the masses under a tight control, heaven knows what we would get up to.

I have a question for polyglide, did Jesus die before(John) or after( Mark) the passover meal?

Tosh wrote:Dan, humans want to be different, our individuality is a key part of our status and identity, the very fact people like Uri Geller and David Icke are multi millionaires tells you how strong this instinct can be in some humans. It goes way beyond gullibility, bad reasoning, anti-authority or lack of education, it is a psychological desire to be somehow unique from the mainstream.

I researched the religiosity of the Bible Belt, the biggest threat comes from the internet educating the uninformed, guess where evangelical apologists concentrate their efforts, the internet, it is all about money in America.

When I hear the 9/11 conspiracy theories I worry about the human mind, and it makes me wonder if we can be trusted with the freedoms we crave, maybe the elite are right to keep the masses under a tight control, heaven knows what we would get up to.

Yes, you do worry about the mentality behind people so willing to believe stuff.
Incidentally, I've actually seen Uri Gellar as an after-dinner speaker. He was absolutely abysmal. What an utter Charlatan.

Tosh wrote:If this is not enough to cast doubt on the veracity of Scripture, there have been many early transcripts of the NT discovered which clearly demonstrate the King James Bible was altered, amended and errant !!

Google Professor Bart Ehrman, a former evangelical biblical scholar whose research of the original Greek manuscripts convinced him the NT could not be inerrant.

Dr. Ehrman gives Critical Academic Analysis of the Bible Errors & Contradictions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twX5HlBDZEI

Looks interesting. I'll try and have a look at that later.