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Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

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Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by witchfinder on Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

French satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo" has published pictures of the prophet Mohamed as a cartoon character in its latest issue, the magazine also stated that the prophet was the editor in chief for that particular issue, the result is the petrol bombing and destruction of the magazines offices in Paris.

It is strictly forbidden in Islam for anyone to make or create images of the prophet Mohamed, to do so is regarded by Muslims to be disrespectful and is an insult, therefore one has to ask - why ?, why did this magazine feel it necessary to knowingly and deliberately upset a section of French society. ?

Personaly I am a none believer, I am from a Christian background, and though I will frequently criticise Islam, the Catholic Church, Jewish hard liners and American bible bashers, I would not go so far as to purposely disrespect or poke fun at someone elses beliefs, this is called tolerance.

I am glad we live in the United Kingdom where the preaching or publishing or promotion of religious hatred and intolerance is forbiden by law - in some nations you are allowed to preach hatred and hide behind the wall called "freedom of speech", in some nations there is no hiding place.

We have seen the reactions of some Muslims before when this has happened, it begs the question - was this magazine looking for publicity knowing they would attract attention, perhaps their sales figures were down.





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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:19 pm

polyglide wrote:Hi, Stu,
          The earh is part of the universe and presumably was created by God at the time of his choice. I have always thought that our universe, not forgetting we do not actaully know how big it is , is not the be all and end all, it would not make any sense.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:The earth is 4.54 billion years old, the universe is 13.8 billion years, this roundly refutes the myth of genesis in the bible where all the stars are created in one go. Quite obviously the people who wrote that were unaware that stars have a finite existence, they are born, live and die, just like us. It is also fairly obvious that a being with limitless power wouldn't need to waste nearly 15 billion years to create everything and then create us just 150000 years ago, especially if as religion claims and Genesis says we're supposed to be the reason for the universe existing.

As we see things there must be an end to everything and a start.
         
I nor anyone else can comprehend the size of the universe  nor if it has an end and if it does have an end what is on the other side etc; and what is the size of that on the other side etc;  I cannot even think about there being no end to anything because if that is so it must be moving continually through something and what is that which it is moving through etc; etc;

          kind regards, have to go and recover.

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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:27 pm

I know how old they are or roughly Sheldon, it tears the big book to shreds does it not, the thing is I believe is the religious group that polyglide belongs to that has different dates to this and says the universe was created by the big bang but at different times to what we have evidence for.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:57 pm

stuart torr wrote:I know how old they are or roughly Sheldon, it tears the big book to shreds does it not, the thing is I believe is the religious group that polyglide belongs to that has different dates to this and says the universe was created by the big bang but at different times to what we have evidence for.

Certainly as far as a literal interpretation is concerned stu, scientific facts are irreconcilable with the biblical myth of genesis, but we shouldn't be too harsh. We are looking at it with benefit of scientific knowledge that have taken millennia to amass, the authors of Genesis were taking a stab at explaining the universe and their existence without any of that knowledge. It also has a certain beauty, as long as you accept it is an ancient myth and don't start tying yourself in knots to twist into line with the facts of the actual chronology of the universe, and the earth and our solar system. If polyglide wants to believe the universe was created 6000 years ago (and the light from the stars created en route) then a vast amount of self delusion is required, but religious beliefs all require this to a greater or lesser extent in my experience.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:43 pm

I understand that Sheldon,that is why I try and ask my questions to polyglide as gently as possible, because of the religious belief of that particular religion makes things so hard to believe in the scientific results.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:28 am

Respecting someone's right to believe something is not the same as respecting the belief itself. This I think is the point of this thread. No belief or idea should ever be free from criticism no matter how deeply held.

It's fundamental to any free society that everyone have freedom of speech and expression. I find religious beliefs and the claims they're based on rather puerile, but I don't just post irrelevant ad hominem the way polyglide has done in almost every post. I take the time to reason my criticisms where possible with proper evidence.

Polyglide is the one who has claimed to be 100% certain and to possess expert debating skills. Why then does my criticism so often prompt petty insults and bare claims in place of proper evidence and reasoned debate?

What's more he hasn't the courtesy to acknowledge post content, and often ignores entire posts whilst pretending he's responding to it. Instead resorting to simple proselytising and nothing more. This is not a website to preach his beliefs it is for all views on religion to be discussed.

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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:33 am

Polyglide wrote: The earh is part of the universe and presumably was created by God at the time of his choice. I have always thought that our universe, not forgetting we do not actaully know how big it is , is not the be all and end all, it would not make any sense.

Any evidence for either claim?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:32 am

Perhaps PG is simply stating an opinion, in which he has faith.
Without the assumptions about the role of a deity, perhaps for some people life as we live it makes no sense - I wonder if evidence is really required to back up what is, after all, a statement of faith?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:24 am

Perhaps, but he makes assertions that contradict scientific evidence. He also claims scientific evidence to support his beliefs which simply doesn't exist. He also denies scientific facts.

I'm afraid he also resorts quite often to ad hominem when posters offer critical views of his beliefs. He doesn't have to discuss his beliefs after all. He chooses to do so in a public forum that is at least leaning towards secular views.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:27 am

His (Polyglide's) opening post in this thread was quite promising unless I'm mis-remembering, he advocated that anyone should have the right to free speech. However since then he has seemed less tolerant of that right when it highlights the flaws and spurious claims and logic of his own beliefs.

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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:13 pm

I am afraid that some believers think that their belief is their evidence Sheldon, and god is their anti scientific belief.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:19 pm

This is their choice of course. I'd only object if they are trying to suppress criticism of their beliefs or in any way deny the rights of people who don't share their beliefs, or advocate prejudice against any group or minority.

A person may believe what they wish, it's impossible to stop anyway, but those beliefs don't grant them any special rights.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:24 pm

True Sheldon but it is what they think in their different beliefs is it not.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:06 pm

Dr, Sheldon,
There are thousands of obvious things that do not need any scientific expalnation.

The lack of some people being unable to understand that being one.

You put an egg into a ffying pan and hey presto, you have cooked egg.

No scientific evidence needed.

You are lost in mist of scientific bull.

As I have explained all scientists have done is approach a subject and verify that which God created.

You are unable to think for yourself and rely on what scientists tell you.

I look at the evidence and have my own opinion.

I could have worked out myswelf that everything was created by energy and that anything heavier than air would drop to earth or that anything floats by displacing it's weight before going under etc;

No scientist has come up with the source of life, no scientist has come up with the extent of the universe, no scientist can explain the human brain, [or lack of] nor how old the universe actually is, [ it varies continually between many millions of years] etcf;

These are the things I am interested in and not pet subjects of scientists.



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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:08 pm

spelling mistakes noted.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:32 pm

Polyglide if an item is in space, it would not drop to earth would it? it would float off in to the universe would it not? planes that are driven by engines fly across the world without falling to earth unless the engines fail? rockets fly into space and float without coming back do they not?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:22 pm

Stu,
When we talk about nature, that is what we consider not the fact that nature can be overcome by mankind's actions.

When we talk about gravity it is how it affects earth, we are also aware that it has similar effects on other planets etc;

Dark matter will not be the only matter scientists have yet to discover, ultimately the answer will be blowing in the wind.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:48 pm

Polyglide, gravity has an effect on all the planets pull around the earth, earths revolving and movement causes that gravitational pull does it not?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:05 pm

You put an egg into a ffying pan and hey presto, you have cooked egg.

PG - I put my egg in the frying pan an hour ago, and it's still raw - what did I do wrong?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by oftenwrong on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:19 pm

Abracadabra?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:34 pm

polyglide wrote:Dr, Sheldon,
                There are thousands of obvious things that do not need any scientific expalnation.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:I thought you didn't make claims? That certainly looks like a claim to me, and what's more like all the rest you don't even attempt to evidence it. It's a little sad you don't see how silly a claim it is as well.

The lack of some people being unable to understand that being one.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:One what?
               
You put an egg into a ffying pan and hey presto, you have cooked egg. No scientific evidence needed.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Another claim, and another demonstrably incorrect claim what's more. Laughably so, unless you think humans were born with the ability to produce fire, metal cooking utensils, and knowing how to cook.  

**(petty insults, and BS deleted to save bandwidth)**
               

You are unable to think for yourself and rely on what scientists tell you.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:LMAO, after your idiotic claim to be 100% certain that your bronze age superstition is true that's hilarious.
               
I look at the evidence and have my own opinion.
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Scientists of course never rely on evidence.  Razz  and the laughs keep coming.

I could have worked out myswelf that everything was created by energy and that anything heavier than air would drop to earth or that anything floats by displacing it's weight before going under etc;
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:Yet you can't spell, understand basic English, use basic grammar, or grasp the difference between subjective opinion and empirical evidence which has withstood the most rigorous scientific scrutiny.

No scientist has come up with the source of life,
Dr Sheldon Cooper wrote:So what? If science hadn't challenged your religion for the right to be the sole arbiter of truth we'd still think we lived in a geocentric universe, and on a flat earth.It's science that cures disease, and creates technologies that enable us to industrialise agriculture so we can feed everyone, and houses us, and clothes us, heats our homes in winter, cools them in summer, prevents illness, heals the sick, helps us care for the weak, provides clean drinking water, helps predict natural disasters.

Your lot would still be shoving virgins into volcanoes if it weren't for science.

**(A collection of irrelevant BS and bare claims removed to save bandwidth)**  
[/quote]

Is there any point in my pointing out that none of that has any relevance to the thread title or my previous posts, and is in fact just yet another risible proselytising rant?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:38 pm

boatlady wrote:You put an egg into a ffying pan and hey presto, you have cooked egg.

PG - I put my egg in the frying pan an hour ago, and it's still raw - what did I do wrong?

What was your frying pan made of? polyglide's is made of chocolate as he doesn't need science to explain how metal conducts heat.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:39 pm

Sheldon try as you wish my friend but polyglide will not accept the facts as you put them, and as we know them, as he says that it is all theory. Laughing Laughing He obviously has not read and accepted the findings of the more up to date scientists work that can actually prove these things, I believe his religion is stopping him from doing this.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:45 pm

I also thought that Polyglide had not switched any heat on to cook his egg, as if by magic eh?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:07 pm

stuart torr wrote:Sheldon try as you wish my friend but polyglide will not accept the facts as you put them, and as we know them, as he says that it is all theory. Laughing Laughing He obviously has not read and accepted the findings of the more up to date scientists work that can actually prove these things, I believe his religion is stopping him from doing this.

I am still not entirely convinced he's being serious stu.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:10 pm

stuart torr wrote:I also thought that Polyglide had not switched any heat on to cook his egg, as if by magic eh?

Well he seems to be claiming that heat transference requires no scientific explanation, I wish we'd known this as it might have save us wasting time on developing metallurgy and we could have carried on cooking on piles of rocks.

He must be joking, mustn't he? Rolling Eyes
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:12 pm

I am afraid he is mate, as posters have crossed him before and have had the same response.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:14 pm

Laughing Laughing Laughing it is just hard finding dry wood in winter is it not.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:38 pm

stuart torr wrote:Laughing Laughing Laughing it is just hard finding dry wood in winter is it not.

Funny you should say that stu as I have made a large log store and can now store 4m3 of logs and another 4m3 in the garage. Of course science has nothing at all to teach us about heating our homes, ahem... Rolling Eyes No
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:47 pm

Well science did not help invent boilers/heaters did it Sheldon. scratch scratch
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:26 pm

polyglide wrote: You put an egg into a ffying pan and hey presto, you have cooked egg.  

Well I'm not a genius like you poly, so maybe things aren't as obvious to me, but wouldn't you need some sort of heat first?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:31 pm

Maybe a drop of oil also Sheldon? and a spatula?
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:14 am

We're all being very naughty sunny
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:25 am

Well I'd say we were showing remarkable restraint given the bombastic nature of the asinine claim we were presented with.

And let's face it no one could possibly be more restrained or objective than me.

Whaaaaat? Is it only poly who can make palpably false and self agrandising claims Then? Laughing
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:45 am

lol!
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:51 pm

You do know how to cook eggs also then boatlady? Laughing Laughing
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by Dr Sheldon Cooper PhD on Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:17 pm

So would frying bacon, like the egg in poly's grandiose claim, also negate scientific explanation? What about sausages, beans, tomatoes, potatoes, and toast? Or boiling water for tea?

Now that I consider it objectively I have arrived at the inescapable conclusion that I'm Hank Marvin.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by stuart torr on Wed Apr 15, 2015 3:29 pm

Sheldon but would you not need electricity for your microphone when singing and recording your LPs etc? Laughing Laughing
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:15 am

DR, Sheldon,
I gave you credit for realising that a fire would be needed with the egg being fried, it just proves how wrong one can be.

As usual you miss the point in question.
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:40 am

But, PG, the process of frying an egg is a process that can only be explained by reference to scientific theory.

The action of heat on whatever an egg is made of is explained by scientific theories - if we want to know why cracking an egg into a hot pan results in the liquid egg becoming a solid, we need a scientific theory to explain this - it is possible the process was discovered by accident back in the mists of time, but the application of scientific theory has enabled us to further refine the process, rather than continuing to rely on the rather random act of accidentally putting an egg too near the fire - which is how I think the possibility of cooking eggs may have first arisen
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by polyglide on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:59 am

boatlady,
Your points are taken.

However, it matters not how or why or when, when using it as a reference.

There are thousands of actions that have and do take place that occur naturally and need no scientific explanation unless one so desires.

Science has played a major part in the developement of technology and the state of the world today is an example of just exactly what that means.

I should not have to explain just what the present situation is, if you read the news and consider what is in the papers every day one can only come to tone conclusion.

We have made a right mess of what could have been a paradise for all.

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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

Post by boatlady on Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:35 am

I may have entered this conversation too late to really make sense of what you are saying - it seems you may be wanting to say that science has spoiled the world; however, you have used as an example of a happier and simple time an activity (cookery) that depends fully on the application of scientific principles to succeed. In you analogy about putting the egg in the frying pan, you also need to explain what special conditions (a heat source for example) are required to render said egg palatable - this my friend is science
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Re: Freedom of expression vs. freedom from insults

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