Majority back Scottish independence

by **Ivan** Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/majority-back-scottish-independence-193447501.html

by oftenwrong Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:11 pm

Enjoy!

by Redflag Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:53 am

Tosh wrote:
Salmond is only behaving himself at the moment or until the Scots vote Yes, then Scotland would see the tartan Tory at its worst

Are you still at school, or am I expected to respond to this utter juvenile guff ?

Is it Salmond or Lamont proposing Tory style cuts in Scotland ?

and only last week he has been found out lying to the Scottish public

This is known as a logical fallacy.

Do you know your history ?? during the Napoleonic wars the fisherman of Hartlepool hung a monkey for being a spy.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:39 am

The Defence Minister is in Scotland today to discuss the future of Trident if Alex declares a nuclear-free zone. Maybe Faslane will be renamed Guantanamo but it does seem an ideal opportunity to scrap Trident and save a couple of quid into the bargain.

by Redflag Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:47 am

oftenwrong wrote:The Defence Minister is in Scotland today to discuss the future of Trident if Alex declares a nuclear-free zone. Maybe Faslane will be renamed Guantanamo but it does seem an ideal opportunity to scrap Trident and save a couple of quid into the bargain.

But would it be worth it in the end OW, if you take a look at the nut cases that the Arab Spring has gotten rid of and if you think there is no more hanging about ready to jump on a country that does not have the Ultimate deterrent get rid of Trident.

by witchfinder Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:56 am

I have a bit of an open mind on the nuclear deterant, on the one hand there is the cost at a time of austerity, but on the other hand it seems more and more nations are determined to join the nuclear club, and some of them are "dodgy" or "unsavoury" to say the least.

The Faslane base is home to around 4000 navy personnel and employs around 4000 civilian workers from the neighbourhood, this would obviously take a sizable chunk of money out of the Scottish economy.

It must be quite a dilemma for old Salmon face

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:10 am

I have queried before whether possession of a nuclear deterrent actually deters anybody. Rather it makes a target of us. If there ever is a Nuclear War, whoever starts it will want to take-out the opposition in their first strike.

by Redflag Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:27 pm

oftenwrong wrote:I have queried before whether possession of a nuclear deterrent actually deters anybody. Rather it makes a target of us. If there ever is a Nuclear War, whoever starts it will want to take-out the opposition in their first strike.

Would it not put them off trying to domineer by threatening with nuclear weapons if they know that we have them also and therefore it would be tit-for-tat.

by bobby Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:58 pm

Some years ago I remember reading " The nuclear arms race is like two National leaders, standing up to their necks in a pool of petrol arguing who has the most matches”

That said my personal belief is, If some Countries have nuclear weapons ans some don't, I want to be one of those who have it.

We used to have the safety net of 3 major powers each with nuclear weapons, and each of those 3 Nations hating each other. The problem each would have to face was the ones who fired the first Nuclear weapon would in return have Nuclear weapons fired at them, leaving both nations extremely weakened and at the mercy of the third. The Nations I speak of are the US, USSR and China. We are not in that position anymore as more and more Countries get Nuclear technology, What frightens me are Countries like Pakistan, India, Israel, Iraq (should they get it) and any other Nation who’s moral judgement could be thought of as suspect.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:16 pm

.... and it all began with, "My catapult is bigger than your catapult!"

by Tosh Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:16 pm

I do not see the Germans, Japanese, Dutch or Scandinavians cowering under their beds because they do not have a nuclear defence.

by bobby Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:01 pm

I do not see the Germans, Japanese, Dutch or Scandinavians cowering under their beds because they do not have a nuclear defence.

Well if you could see them, you wouldn't need those bleedin great big glasses.

by Boudica Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:10 pm

Tosh wrote:
Salmond and his tartan Tories

lol. if the SNP were acting like Tories then they wouldn't have squashed Labour and be sitting with a majority in the Scottish Parliamemt.

I must have missed that. I assumed we were all under a coalition because no one got a majority?

by ROB Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:57 am

United States Air Force Strategic Air Command B-52 Stratofortresses orbited continuously for three plus decades providing formidable nuclear defense to Germans, Japanese, Dutch, and Scandinavians. United States Navy SSBNs have patrolled continuously for five plus decades providing formidable nuclear defense to Germans, Japanese, Dutch, and Scandinavians.

by oftenwrong Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:40 am

Think of all that investment put to humanitarian use instead.

by Redflag Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:56 am

bobby wrote:I do not see the Germans, Japanese, Dutch or Scandinavians cowering under their beds because they do not have a nuclear defence.

Well if you could see them, you wouldn't need those bleedin great big glasses.

He only wears them to look Intelligent

by skwalker1964 Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:32 pm

The original post can be viewed at http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/barrosos-scotlandeu-announcement-is-good-news-for-ordinary-uk-people/:

I see Jose Manuel Barros, President of the EU Commission, has just announced that an independent Scotland would have to apply for EU membership and would not be able to carry over its membership as part of the UK to its independent status if the 2014 referendum goes in favour of independence. This runs contrary to claims by Scotland’s First Minister, Alex Salmond.

While this is a blow for those Scots with nationalist aspirations (with whom I sympathise, as I sometimes wish North East England could put itself out of reach of inevitably-damaging Tory governments), it’s great news for ordinary people in the UK as a whole.

As I wrote recently (http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/desperate-hypocritical-tories-try-to-get-scotland-to-secede/), the Tories know that they have a better chance of clinging to power if Scotland secedes, and in spite of their instinctive desire to maintain the Union (the only union they do like), they have recently started making announcements that demonstrate a tactical, hypocritical readiness to provoke Scotland to vote in favour of independence in order to improve their chances of continuing to enrich themselves and their friends at the expense of ordinary people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. While Scots might escape this robbery in the short term, in the long run they’re more vulnerable, as a smaller, single country, to being picked off by concerted, international neoliberal actions to bring them to heel.

The best option for all of us, in my opinion, is for ordinary people all over the UK to work together and fight back in a concerted, co-ordinated manner to consign the Tories to political irrelevance for the foreseeable future. It can be done, but only if we stick together.

In unity is strength.

by Redflag Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:22 pm

skwalker1964 wrote:The original post can be viewed at http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/12/10/barrosos-scotlandeu-announcement-is-good-news-for-ordinary-uk-people/:

I see Jose Manuel Barros, President of the EU Commission, has just announced that an independent Scotland would have to apply for EU membership and would not be able to carry over its membership as part of the UK to its independent status if the 2014 referendum goes in favour of independence. This runs contrary to claims by Scotland’s First Minister, Alex Salmond.

While this is a blow for those Scots with nationalist aspirations (with whom I sympathise, as I sometimes wish North East England could put itself out of reach of inevitably-damaging Tory governments), it’s great news for ordinary people in the UK as a whole.

As I wrote recently (http://skwalker1964.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/desperate-hypocritical-tories-try-to-get-scotland-to-secede/), the Tories know that they have a better chance of clinging to power if Scotland secedes, and in spite of their instinctive desire to maintain the Union (the only union they do like), they have recently started making announcements that demonstrate a tactical, hypocritical readiness to provoke Scotland to vote in favour of independence in order to improve their chances of continuing to enrich themselves and their friends at the expense of ordinary people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. While Scots might escape this robbery in the short term, in the long run they’re more vulnerable, as a smaller, single country, to being picked off by concerted, international neoliberal actions to bring them to heel.

The best option for all of us, in my opinion, is for ordinary people all over the UK to work together and fight back in a concerted, co-ordinated manner to consign the Tories to political irrelevance for the foreseeable future. It can be done, but only if we stick together.

In unity is strength.

But for the majority of Scots they will be glad to hear that news skywalker, but I know someone that will be pulling there hair out by the roots wee alec salmond and PMQs in Holyrood will be very interesting this week, two thirds of Scots never wanted separation skywalker and I have been trying to tell you all in England this fact and very glad you have said it better than I could. I never trusted Scam..er..on and his dick heads when they said they wanted to keep the Union together us Scots never vote Tory and your right and because there was no gain for the Tories here in Scotland so he would not mind if we left how about the next time the Tories get back into power a good date would be the TWELFTH OF NEVER. I will leave you with my own proverb

UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL

by oftenwrong Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:38 pm

It's difficult and probably unsafe for a Sassenach to make any comment on the Scots' right to self-determination, but it is a distraction from the Class War which the Tory-led coalition has unleashed on the workers. (The same applies to the irrelevant and self-interested UKIPs).

Unless the oppressed stand up for thermselves firmly and soon, Britain will return to something resembling a feudal system within five years.

by Redflag Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:18 am

oftenwrong wrote:It's difficult and probably unsafe for a Sassenach to make any comment on the Scots' right to self-determination, but it is a distraction from the Class War which the Tory-led coalition has unleashed on the workers. (The same applies to the irrelevant and self-interested UKIPs).

Unless the oppressed stand up for thermselves firmly and soon, Britain will return to something resembling a feudal system within five years.

Thank you OW maybe thats the problem the Scottish gov't have never given the people in England a say about the separation which in my book is unfair, because it would effect the people right across the UK, but I hope all on this forum will chip in and have there say and maybe come up with some ideas that I could pass on to the "Better Together Campaign".

I agree with the last line of your post it is scary but true, IMHO Scam..er..on wants to take us back to Charles Dickens novels and with his cuts to the normal man/women of the UK he will not be happy till then, I am also scared with what he is doing he could convince Scotland to vote yes at the referendum which is a real worry.

by keenobserver1 Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:08 am

If what Mr Barroso has declared is correct, and in the event that the Scottish people exercise their right to self determenation and vote in favour of independence..... would the remaining parts of the current United Kingdom also need to reapply for membership to the European Union?

The Act of Union was in place for a long time before the United Kingdom entered the Common Market/ EEC/ EU( whatever the hell it's called), therefore the membership of all parts of the United Kingdom would change by default.

So Scottish Independence could remove the whole of the United Kingdom from the EU.......

by Redflag Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:06 am

keenobserver1 wrote:If what Mr Barroso has declared is correct, and in the event that the Scottish people exercise their right to self determenation and vote in favour of independence..... would the remaining parts of the current United Kingdom also need to reapply for membership to the European Union?

The Act of Union was in place for a long time before the United Kingdom entered the Common Market/ EEC/ EU( whatever the hell it's called), therefore the membership of all parts of the United Kingdom would change by default.

So Scottish Independence could remove the whole of the United Kingdom from the EU.......

I tend to think there is some truth in what Barroso has said, he is worried about parts of Spain that want to do the same thing as Scotland and separate from Madrid and that has Mr Barroso very worried.

by keenobserver1 Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:59 am

Under current circumstances it would be prudent to assume that the EU would be trying to retain all member states, even if the status quo of said member states changes.

Otherwise the result of removing member states that opt for self determination will undoubtley cause the EU project to implode and create a bigger mess than the current one.

by oftenwrong Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:59 am

The only member of the EU which is not in deficit is Poland.

The Polish banking sector is the largest in central and eastern Europe as well being as the largest and the most highly developed sector of the country’s financial markets. It is regulated by the Polish Financial Supervision Authority. During the transformation to a market-oriented economy, the government privatized some banks, recapitalized the rest and introduced legal reforms that made the sector competitive. This has attracted a significant number of strategic foreign investors. Poland’s banking sector has approximately 5 domestic banks, a network of nearly 600 cooperative banks and 18 branches of foreign-owned banks. In addition, foreign investors have controlling stakes in nearly 40 commercial banks, which make up 68% of the banking capital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Economy

by Redflag Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:00 pm

keenobserver1 wrote:Under current circumstances it would be prudent to assume that the EU would be trying to retain all member states, even if the status quo of said member states changes.

Otherwise the result of removing member states that opt for self determination will undoubtley cause the EU project to implode and create a bigger mess than the current one.

More info has arrived today apparently the other 26 countries will have the say whether Scotland is still in if they vote for Independence, also it could take anything up to three years for Scotland to negotiate its terms and conditions for being in the EU.

by keenobserver1 Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:50 pm

Redflag wrote:
keenobserver1 wrote:Under current circumstances it would be prudent to assume that the EU would be trying to retain all member states, even if the status quo of said member states changes.

Otherwise the result of removing member states that opt for self determination will undoubtley cause the EU project to implode and create a bigger mess than the current one.

More info has arrived today apparently the other 26 countries will have the say whether Scotland is still in if they vote for Independence, also it could take anything up to three years for Scotland to negotiate its terms and conditions for being in the EU.

In the event that the other 26 countries decide that Scotland should be out of the EU on a vote in favour of independence, then the same would need to apply to the remaining countries of the United Kingdom as it would no longer exist.

by Redflag Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 pm

keenobserver1 wrote:
Redflag wrote:
keenobserver1 wrote:Under current circumstances it would be prudent to assume that the EU would be trying to retain all member states, even if the status quo of said member states changes.

Otherwise the result of removing member states that opt for self determination will undoubtley cause the EU project to implode and create a bigger mess than the current one.

More info has arrived today apparently the other 26 countries will have the say whether Scotland is still in if they vote for Independence, also it could take anything up to three years for Scotland to negotiate its terms and conditions for being in the EU.

In the event that the other 26 countries decide that Scotland should be out of the EU on a vote in favour of independence, then the same would need to apply to the remaining countries of the United Kingdom as it would no longer exist.

At the moment the UK consists of England Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland the only one to leave which we will not is Scotland so it would still leave the rest of the UK exactly where they are now in the EU keenobserver.

by keenobserver1 Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:27 am

Tony Blair may be featuring in the "Better Together" campaign against independence.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/blair-ready-to-battle-against-independence.19713881

It was nice being part of the United Kingdom for over 300years.......

by Redflag Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:01 am

keenobserver1 wrote:Tony Blair may be featuring in the "Better Together" campaign against independence.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/blair-ready-to-battle-against-independence.19713881

It was nice being part of the United Kingdom for over 300years.......

You have jumped the gun a bit there has not been a vote yet and the Scots will have THERE say, it is not Tony Blair that will be running the Better Together Campaign its Alister Darling so if Tony is to be involved it will only be in a MINOR role.

by keenobserver1 Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:14 pm

Redflag wrote:
keenobserver1 wrote:Tony Blair may be featuring in the "Better Together" campaign against independence.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/blair-ready-to-battle-against-independence.19713881

It was nice being part of the United Kingdom for over 300years.......

You have jumped the gun a bit there has not been a vote yet and the Scots will have THERE say, it is not Tony Blair that will be running the Better Together Campaign its Alister Darling so if Tony is to be involved it will only be in a MINOR role.

Not jumping the gun......if Blair becomes involved it will put a lot of people off.

by Redflag Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:00 pm

Not jumping the gun......if Blair becomes involved it will put a lot of people off.

If the cuts coming from the Tories which come into effect in April 2013 do not push the Scots to vote Yes I'm sure Tony Blair is the least of their problems. cheers

by oftenwrong Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:29 pm

Many people, mostly American, admire Tony Blair as a loyal friend and World Statesman.

Others regard his participation as the kiss of death on any enterprise.

Britons are still awaiting the verdict of the Chilcot Enquiry on the man.

by keenobserver1 Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:18 pm

oftenwrong wrote:Many people, mostly American, admire Tony Blair as a loyal friend and World Statesman.

Others regard his participation as the kiss of death on any enterprise.

Britons are still awaiting the verdict of the Chilcot Enquiry on the man.

I'm inclined to go with the "Kiss of death" scenario where Mr Blair is concerned......when do we hear the verdict of Chilcot?

by Redflag Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:00 am

keenobserver1 wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:Many people, mostly American, admire Tony Blair as a loyal friend and World Statesman.

Others regard his participation as the kiss of death on any enterprise.

Britons are still awaiting the verdict of the Chilcot Enquiry on the man.

I'm inclined to go with the "Kiss of death" scenario where Mr Blair is concerned......when do we hear the verdict of Chilcot?

You seem to forget Scotland is different to England we have more Pandas in Scotland than we have tory MSPs, the reason Scotland does not vote tory and has not for over 50 years.

by keenobserver1 Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:15 pm

Redflag wrote:
keenobserver1 wrote:
oftenwrong wrote:Many people, mostly American, admire Tony Blair as a loyal friend and World Statesman.

Others regard his participation as the kiss of death on any enterprise.

Britons are still awaiting the verdict of the Chilcot Enquiry on the man.

I'm inclined to go with the "Kiss of death" scenario where Mr Blair is concerned......when do we hear the verdict of Chilcot?

You seem to forget Scotland is different to England we have more Pandas in Scotland than we have tory MSPs, the reason Scotland does not vote tory and has not for over 50 years.

An interesting new revelation on why most Scottish people don't vote conservative,because we have got Panda's? Shocked

by oftenwrong Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Panda's, Unicorns, Virgins - all a measure of scarcity, keen(?)observer.

by WarwickH Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:18 pm

I lived in Scotland for 18 years and I'd estimate that Scots who would opt for independence for purely parochial or anti-English sentiments would be well below half. However, since the last election this has undoubtedly changed' Gone is a "perceived" left-leaning Labour government with strong Scots connections and roots, replaced by a savage right-wing ideology of elitist "English toffs" who epitomise everything any self-respecting Scot despises.
Alex Salmond, I'm sure, couldn't believe his luck when Cameron slipped into Westminster, he was struggling to convince his folk until then. Now, all he has to do is make no (more) blunders and let the English Tories push any undecided Scots into the Nationalist camp.
Only recently I became convinced that the pragmatic and canny Scots would go this way and we can thank David Cameron's government for the break-up of the United Kingdom. Something for your CV, Dave.
Apart from being an internationalist, who would rather be part of the UK and the EU, I think that both parties will suffer separation. I also recognise the loss of a whole swathe of Northern British lefties, without whom, getting rid of the monsters we're now saddled with will be that much harder.

by Redflag Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:38 am

Good post WarwickH. When Cameron got into power it worried me too, it will be the Tory gov't that pushes the Scots to vote for Independence in September 2014 with all the austerity that is not needed except for Tory Ideology, but there will be one good thing that will come out of it IF Scotland votes yes we will get rid of the 1 Tory MP and the 1 Tory MSP that we have here in Scotland.

The polls at the moment have not been anything to worry about with the yes campaign just over a third of Scots want Independence, what is your opinion of how things will end up after the 18th of Sept.2014 WarwickH ?

by WarwickH Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:56 am

I think it's going to be a close call with the "yes" campaign gaining ground all the time. They might be happy with "Devo max" and stick with "the best of both worlds"- some believe Salmond himself actually prefers this. Only that element will stop Scottish independence from happening.

by oftenwrong Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:00 pm

Scottish Independence may prove to be the ultimate Law of unintended consequences not unlike throwing a lighted match into a petrol station "to see what happens".

Meanwhile, the patient British Public are still awaiting the verdict of the Chilcot Enquiry on that Blair fellow.

by Redflag Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:10 pm

WarwickH wrote:I think it's going to be a close call with the "yes" campaign gaining ground all the time. They might be happy with "Devo max" and stick with "the best of both worlds"- some believe Salmond himself actually prefers this. Only that element will stop Scottish independence from happening.

What is Salmond all about when he got a majoity in Holyrood he was spouting referendum for Independence and trying to turn the screw on Cameron gov't, but that smug arrogant Posh boy did not think that scottish people did not have the brains to work things out and too know what is best for Scotland, but he does not seem very worried about losing the money from OUR Gas & Oil.

I think maybe at the start of 2014 we will have a better idea which way Scotland will vote .

by oftenwrong Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:17 pm

As you say, Redflag, time will tell. But any regular Poker player will back the imperturbable Salmond against blushing Cameron.

by Sponsored content