Is the United Kingdom doomed?

First topic message reminder :

Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/majority-back-scottish-independence-193447501.html

Big day today Redflag, good luck for Scotland.

stuart torr wrote:Big day today Redflag, good luck for Scotland.

Thanks Stuart by now you will know the result of Scotlands referendum and I am breathing a sigh of relief I have been a bit uptight the last few days. What was worrying me was what Salmond had in store for Scots if he got his way and can assure you the Scots would not of liked what he did, his only tax cut in his white paper was for the big Corporations 3p less than what there paying in England nothing for pensioners or the low paid.

So, according to Salmond, the appearance in Scotland of the major party leaders would assist the 'Yes' campaign would it? What might the victory margin have been , in that case, if they hadn't gone north to whip up support for 'No' ?

And the constant media politically-correct cries of 'too close to call' for weeks when the margin turned out to be 10% . They must think we are fools...

A simple process by comparison, Bobby.

Step 1 : take rocket
Step 2 : place firmly up Mr Miliband's bottom
Step 3 : light rocket...

( to be continued once effects of Steps 1, 2 and 3 above are assessed )

If loses election light, nice one Phil.

Extremely good % NO vote was it not Phil and Redflag, 55-5%.

I know I can smell it from here!!!

Despite being a bit more relaxed now that the result is known, and the UK will remain in tact with the bonus that Salmond has resigned.

There are a few points that Salmond should be appreciatted for -

The level of voter engagement in politics was outstanding

Although failing to deliver independence for 5.5million people, he may have improved things for 65million people.

Do you really want the UK SEPERATE? Well Keen? England, Scotland, Wales, and N.Ireland all separate countries? or the UK OF GREAT BRITAIN? OR

keenobserver1 wrote:Despite being a bit more relaxed now that the result is known, and the UK will remain in tact with the bonus that Salmond has resigned.

There are a few points that Salmond should be appreciatted for -

The level of voter engagement in politics was outstanding

Although failing to deliver independence for 5.5million people, he may have improved things for 65million people.

".... improved things for 65million people."

Or not. As the case may be. The thrust of the Scottish Independence campaign was a determination to eliminate the Tories from Scottish affairs. That hasn't worked, and Conservative Central Office is now hell-bent upon eliminating the impact of Scottish MPs upon the business of Westminster.

Any Labour Party vote in Parliament relies upon MPs who represent Scottish constituencies. Think on't.

.......Or not. As the case may be. The thrust of the Scottish Independence campaign was a determination to eliminate the Tories from Scottish affairs. That hasn't worked, and Conservative Central Office is now hell-bent upon eliminating the impact of Scottish MPs upon the business of Westminster.

It my be time for the West Lothian question to answered.

I would watch what you wish for keen, what Cameron wants is to stop Ed Miliband and the Labour party from having a majority in the HOC, so that he did not have enough MPs so that he could repeal all the Tory nasty bill so you would be stuck with the bedroom tax and the privaatization of your NHS.

Exactly Redflag, do you think keen is a blue supporter?

Redflag, I do not think there will be a tory M.P left in Scotland after the election.
All S.N.P OR Labour or ukip.

stuart torr wrote:Exactly Redflag, do you think keen is a blue supporter?

In a sporting manner?

Just asked in the other thread, what does a sporting manner mean?

".... what does a sporting manner mean?"

One of the things it presumably doesn't mean is first preparing a report on irregular payments to various members of FIFA, and then announcing that said Report will never see the light of day.

According to Salmond, up until Wednesday the Scots could not - and would not - be fooled by Westminster politicians.

By this weekend he suggest that the Scots were tricked into voting ' No' by the 'Westminster gang'.

Lord preserve us from politicians - they talk utter bilge and are a curse on our society...

Phil Hornby wrote:According to Salmond, up until Wednesday the Scots could not - and would not - be fooled by Westminster politicians.

By this weekend he suggest that the Scots were tricked into voting ' No' by the 'Westminster gang'.

Lord preserve us from politicians - they talk utter bilge and are a curse on our society...

Well said that man!!!!

Also get paid far too much for doing it.

Well it's US that voted for them!

Don't ever vote for 'em. You know it only encourages 'em.

Not all of us voted for 'em or them, did we?

Don't ever vote for 'em. You know it only encourages 'em.

Good plan - how do we get someone to run the country?

".... how do we get someone to run the country?

We can do it ourselves. No need for self-serving intermediaries.
The internet provides the means for consulting everybody on everything.

Someone has to coordinate, though, surely?

Don't get tricked, boatlady - this is just a means of ow gaining world domination.

Before we knew it he would be invading Pease Pottage...

Au contraire, mon brave! The Constitution of my World Domination League exempts from taxation places with unfeasible names such as Much Marcle, Toller Porcorum and Ryme Intrensica. Pease Pottage would naturally fall within the Gatwick Duty-Free zone, except on Tuesdays in Lent.

Ok - I'll let you off this time.

I was just testing your command of the immutable rules which you make up as you go along...

rules which you make up as you go along...

Regretfully, I have to bow to the Masters, Cameron and Osborne in that respect.

The Tories haven’t won a majority in an election since 1992. Since crawling into power in 2010, they’ve tried to gerrymander constituency boundaries, they’re making voter registration less straightforward (right out of the Republican Party handbook), and now we have EVEL – their plan for 'English votes for English laws'. Is this proof that they’ve given up on most of the UK and, as a last throw of the dice, are desperately trying to find a way of holding on to power in England?

The plan is to stop Scottish MPs from voting at Westminster on what are purely English issues. According to Yvette Cooper, very few issues involve England only. And as she argued, should only Welsh MPs be allowed to vote on Welsh matters? Should northern MPs be barred from voting on London issues? The stupidity could just go on and on.

Gordon Brown told the House of Commons: "You cannot have one United Kingdom if you have two separate classes of MPs". Speaking on the BBC, Cameron's former tutor, Vernon Bogdanor, has been withering about Cameron’s lack of grasp of our constitution, adding "Gordon Brown is absolutely right". The Westminster parliament is the UK parliament and any restriction on MPs' voting would be unconstitutional.

All they will do Ivan is to cause the SNP to demand another Independence Referendum, and he will not be so lucky next time Scotland will vote to leave the UK in overwhelming numbers and might I add Scottish Labour might join in the call to leave the UK if Cameron keeps on going down this route of EVEL.

Very true Redflag, Scotland would probably vote for independence if they had a second chance, especially with the labour party backing them, because cameron will never change, not even his underwear,

You will not get an argument from me on that Stuart, if you had heard the debate in the HOC about the extra powers for Holyrood since Scots voted NO on the 18th September.   The SNP MPs in the HOC where certain that Cameron was going back on his word in the vow printed in Scotlands Daily Record (sister paper to the Daily Mirror) these are the same MPs that tell Scots that everything that goes wrong in Scotland that Westminister is to blame because of their cuts in Scotland's budget.

Apologies for continuing to flog an old contention, but this does seem to be a very opportune moment for Parliament to adopt an actual written British Constitution.

Why English votes for English laws is a kneejerk absurdity

From an article by Vernon Bogdanor:-

English votes for English laws has been Conservative policy since Scotland voted for devolution. It was not Conservative policy when Northern Ireland enjoyed devolution, between 1922 and 1972, and Northern Ireland MPs – predominantly unionist – deprived Labour of working majorities in 1950-1 and 1964-6. Indeed, in 1965 the Conservative shadow home secretary, Peter Thorneycroft, insisted on the principle that “every member of the House of Commons is equal to every other member of the House of Commons”.

EVEL would mean that whenever a government depended on Scottish MPs for its majority, as could occur if Labour were narrowly elected in 2015, there would be a UK majority – Labour – for non-devolved matters such as foreign affairs and economics, but an alternative majority for devolved matters, which is a logical absurdity. A government must be collectively responsible to Parliament for all the policies that come before it, not just a selection of them.

It is not possible to separate English matters from Scottish. Even if all control of income tax were devolved to Scotland, the bulk of Holyrood’s revenue would still come from Westminster. There are therefore no specifically 'English' domestic matters involving public expenditure. But there is a deeper reason why EVEL is misguided. Its effect would be to separate two systems of government that must be brought together if the union is to be strengthened. The SNP has a settled policy of not voting on 'English' laws, for it is an openly separatist party. It is odd to find the Conservatives – a unionist party – seeking to follow.

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/24/english-votes-english-laws-absurdity-separatist

stuart torr wrote:Redflag, I do not think there will be a tory M.P left in Scotland after the election.
All S.N.P OR Labour or ukip.

Since you cannot get a fag paper between the Tories & Ukip policies Stuart I doubt very much if many Scots would vote Ukip, I know we have a Ukip MEP but all that proves is some Scots want out of the EU just like some in the rest of the UK.

If you want to kill off the United Kingdom, there is no better way

Extracts from an article by Gordon Brown:-

"As the price for keeping the American union together, California has just two members of the US Senate to represent its 38 million citizens, the same as Wyoming has to represent its 583,000 people. Similarly, the price New South Wales pays for Australian unity is one senator for every 580,000 people, in contrast to Tasmania’s one senator for every 40,000.

There is no democratic country whose main lawmaking body is made up of a first and second class of elected representatives. And there is no state in the world, federal or otherwise, in which one part of the country pays national income tax while the other part is exempt. Yet these are the two principal constitutional proposals that have come from the Conservative Party in its kneejerk response to UKIP’s English nationalism and an ill-thought-out drive to impose ‘English votes for English laws’.

By according a first-class status to England within Westminster and a second-class status to the rest, the constitution would be changed for ever. And the government would become a servant of two masters, with its ability to govern depending one day on the votes of the whole of the UK and the next day on English votes only.

Chaos would follow: for, once Scotland and then Wales and Northern Ireland became exempt from contributing to UK income tax – but still benefiting from it through Barnett formula allocations – English consent for pooling and sharing across the UK would quickly dissipate. Whether by malice or by mistake, the Conservatives would have done the Scottish nationalists’ job for them."

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/17/united-kingdom-english-votes-english-laws-ukip