Is the United Kingdom doomed?

First topic message reminder :

Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/majority-back-scottish-independence-193447501.html

Civil war if they shut the pubs, that is for sure.

Feelings are certainly running high.

The alternatives are both rather unattractive it seems to me - a right wing government is England as opposed to a nationalist and rather right wing Scottish government - still, there's always the ballot box

Let's hope they vote the right way then boatlady?

Surely the situation in Scotland cannot get as bad as northern Ireland? Is it really all over religion just over the border?
No-one is going to let it get that bad surely?
Redflag or Ivan please inform this little old Englishman.

Ivan wrote:What an unfortunate photo!  


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwMPUbcCMAA1-8J.jpg

At last a bit of truth about the referendum debate.

Redflag wrote:You have hit the nail on the head OW, it worries me that we will end up with a civil war no matter what the answer Scotland gives on  the 18th September to be honest something like Northern Ireland.

I doubt it will ever escalate that far.

As much as it is the opinion that the tories are hated in Scotland, they currently have a total of 15 seats in Holyrood, by comparrison Labour hold 37 seats. The SNP hold an overall majority of 65 seats out of the 129 available.

So as much as there is great humour in the fact that Scotland has more Panda's than Tory MP's, the Scottish Tories would seem more palatable to Scottish people with out their Westminster cohorts. I would anticipate this support to increase should Scotland choose to go it alone on Thursday.

stuart torr wrote:Surely the situation in Scotland cannot get as bad as northern Ireland? Is it really all over religion just over the border?
No-one is going to let it get that bad surely?
Redflag or Ivan please inform this little old Englishman.

No it's not all over religion in Scotland, in previous campaigns the politicians may have used the religious divide to play on peoples fears and emotions, but Scotland has changed dramatically.

It won't become a civil war, no matter what way the vote goes. On Friday it will be a case of we've made our bed, and we get on with it.

oftenwrong wrote:The proposal seems to be a Scotland totally dependent upon smoked salmon, whisky and Harris tweed for income.  Nobody thinks North Sea Oil will last for ever, but don't any educated Scots remember the Darién fiasco?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

I don't think anyone in Scotland is old enough to remember the Darien fiasco, despite the national press reporting that we have a greater percentage of elderly residents than anywhere else in the UK.

On the face of it though it looks like a crazy idea - lets take boat loads of pale skinned, ginger headed Scots to Panama and set up a trading colony and we will make loads of money and be rich for ever more, and control the worlds trade between the east and west.

However was it really so crazy?

What did Scotland get out of the adventure?

Bank of Scotland
Act of Union
Abillity to trade with all of the English Colonies
Fully re-imbursed for all the money lost in the scheme
Massive growth in trade and industry
Over 300 years as part of the Union
Influence over English affairs - both foriegn and domestic

stuart torr wrote:Let's hope they vote the right way then boatlady?

We will need to vote for the Right option as there is no Left option available.

keenobserver1 wrote:As much as it is the opinion that the tories are hated in Scotland, they currently have a total of 15 seats in Holyrood, by comparrison Labour hold 37 seats. The SNP hold an overall majority of 65 seats out of the 129 available.

So as much as there is great humour in the fact that Scotland has more Panda's than Tory MP's, the Scottish Tories would seem  more palatable to Scottish people with out their Westminster cohorts. I would anticipate this support to increase should Scotland choose to go it alone on Thursday.

There is only one Tory MSP in Holyrood that got into the Scottish Parliament via peoples votes ko, the rest of them got into the Parliament through something that is called the list here in Scotland we are given two ballot papers and its the second ballot paper is how some MSP get into Holyrood.

Redflag wrote:

keenobserver1 wrote:As much as it is the opinion that the tories are hated in Scotland, they currently have a total of 15 seats in Holyrood, by comparrison Labour hold 37 seats. The SNP hold an overall majority of 65 seats out of the 129 available.

So as much as there is great humour in the fact that Scotland has more Panda's than Tory MP's, the Scottish Tories would seem  more palatable to Scottish people with out their Westminster cohorts. I would anticipate this support to increase should Scotland choose to go it alone on Thursday.

There is only one Tory MSP in Holyrood that got into the Scottish Parliament via peoples votes ko, the rest of them got into the Parliament through something that is called the list here in Scotland we are given two ballot papers and its the second ballot paper is how some MSP get into Holyrood.

And through the "List" this indicates that there is a level of support for the Tories in Scotland, small but a level none the less.

In May this year I was really taken aback by Scotland voting for a Ukip MEP in the EU elections it goes to show there is people in Scotland that thinks immigration is a problem and quite a few thinks we should come out of the EU.

Redflag wrote:In May this year I was really taken aback by Scotland voting for a Ukip MEP in the EU elections it goes to show there is people in Scotland that thinks immigration is a problem and quite a few thinks we should come out of the EU.

In democracy the vote of an idiot counts the same as the vote of a genius.....

I am afraid gents that when it comes to the crunch, the votes will see the swing to the SNP, and they will have far more seats than 65.
Not being a Scotsman, I do not know whether that will be good for Scotland or not?
I only hope it is for the friends I have up there and on here.

stuart torr wrote:I am afraid gents that when it comes to the crunch, the votes will see the swing to the SNP, and they will have far more seats than 65.
Not being a Scotsman, I do not know whether that will be good for Scotland or not?
I only hope it is for the friends I have up there and on here.

After Thursday, as happened previously, the SNP will be a spent force that failed to deliver and it will take at least another generation to gather momentum again.

The current polls are badly skewed at present with the voting age for the referendum being lowered to 16. On the day more will vote with their head than their heart.

Well keen.
Does that mean that they will vote against the SNP?
Vote for what is good for Scotland?

keenobserver1 wrote:

oftenwrong wrote:The proposal seems to be a Scotland totally dependent upon smoked salmon, whisky and Harris tweed for income.  Nobody thinks North Sea Oil will last for ever, but don't any educated Scots remember the Darién fiasco?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme

I don't think anyone in Scotland is old enough to remember the Darien fiasco, despite the national press reporting that we have a greater percentage of elderly residents than anywhere else in the UK.

On the face of it though it looks like a crazy idea - lets take boat loads of pale skinned, ginger headed Scots to Panama and set up a trading colony and we will make loads of money and be rich for ever more, and control the worlds trade between the east and west.

However was it really so crazy?

What did Scotland get out of the adventure?

Bank of Scotland
Act of Union
Abillity to trade with all of the English Colonies
Fully re-imbursed for all the money lost in the scheme
Massive growth in trade and industry
Over 300 years as part of the Union
Influence over English affairs - both foriegn and domestic

Always fun to answer a rhetorical question, isn't it KO1 ? But in the aftermath of Darien, the new (German-speaking) King of England decided to give a helping hand to his reeling Northern neighbours by way of the shopping-list you mention. It's not realistic to expect gratitude to last for 300 years, but if (heaven forfend!) everything should go pear-shaped following a legal separation in 2016, Scots might bear in mind that the next King George isn't due to take charge for about fifty years.

I always enjoy your humour OW, as it generally based in some long forgotten fact.

stuart torr wrote:Surely the situation in Scotland cannot get as bad as northern Ireland? Is it really all over religion just over the border?
No-one is going to let it get that bad surely?
Redflag or Ivan please inform this little old Englishman.

The situation here is really bad stuart if the yes voters find out your voting NO all hell breaks loose, Jim Murphy was out talking to people in the streets and he was assaulted by a Knuckle Dragger who was charged and given a community service. If there is a NO vote things will be not very nice here all thanks to Salmond and his SNP party because that is where I will lay the blame after all this is over.

He does not seem a nice guy or party at all Redflag?
I really did not realise it was that bad, apologies from me to all Scots folk on the forum.
I have been supporting you verbally, but I wish I could add my vote for you also.

Nice ones Phil

I had a very enjoyable lunch today with my occasional business partner, who is never wrong about political matters. He is sure that - by a small margin -Scotland will retain the union.

Just in case that makes anyone feel any better...

Apparently the result of the Scottish referendum will be known definitively by early Friday morning.

Whatever the result, a degree of cooling will inevitably take place between England and Scotland now it is known for certain just how much the bride had been thinking about divorce.

stuart torr wrote:Well keen.
Does that mean that they will vote against the SNP?
Vote for what is good for Scotland?

On the day before I go to the polls to vote YAE or Nay in Scotlands referendum Stuart I will make a confession, if was anybody else that was asking me to vote Yes providing I was given anwers to my questions pensions and currency ect I would really concider saying yes, my reason would be that it is always some parts of England are determined to get a Tory gov't into Westminister, and I only hope this has been a hard lesson for those that voted Tory in 2010, you would of thought that 18 years of Thatchers Tory gov't was more than enough for the people of the UK.

On Alec Salmond I would not trust him as far as I could throw him (and that is not far). I will be voting NO tomorrow because Salmond would sell us off to the highest bidder, all he cares about is his hopes and dreams not what is best for the people of Scotland, they do not call him the Tartan Tory for nothing I imagine he is inbetween Tory & Ukip politics neither of them very nice. Just to cheer up my friends and family in England a whistleblower in Scotlands NHS has leaked a document that spells out a short fall of £400-£450 Million in the 2015/16 NHS budget. If I had not been in hospital at the end of May beginning of June 2014 I may not have believed it but the ward I was in was FILTHY and in three days I was in that ward never seen sight nor sound of a cleaner and the medical staff where none existent the only decent one was the young ward doctor the nursing staff reminded me of the ones we see in the TV news and newspapers that have been caught misusing the older generation in old peoples homes, I was moved to another ward (Thank God) because as ill as I was I was ready to sign myself out and my family backed me up on this move.

stuart torr wrote:He does not seem a nice guy or party at all Redflag?
I really did not realise it was that bad, apologies from me to all Scots folk on the forum.
I have been supporting you verbally, but I wish I could add my vote for you also.

Thank you Stuart it is impossible for you to really know what Salmond is all about, but I just hope the truth will come out about Salmond and that will heal any rift between us here in Scotland due too Salmond and his trouble making SNP party.

I am certain that Osborne is doing the calculations for the appropriate reductions as we speak, Bobby...just as sure as I am standing here on one leg, wearing a pink Sou'Wester adorned with a 'Vote Tory' rosette and with a rose clenched between my teeth...

Phil you come up with some beauts mate, always get me laughing

Phil Hornbey said: I am certain that Osborne is doing the calculations for the appropriate reductions as we speak, Bobby...just as sure as I am standing here on one leg, wearing a pink Sou'Wester adorned with a 'Vote Tory' rosette and with a rose clenched between my teeth...
Ah, so like me you do think they will take a reduction.

Yep - here, take this rose before it wilts...

Here's a bunch of them Phil, because if he takes a pay cut, I will run round the block starkers.

Thanks for the warning, Stuart...

Don't worry Phil, if you were there to see me, you would not be shocked, you would be.

Well The day of decision is here, as I now see it Herr Cameron is on a hiding to nothing whereas win or lose Alex Salmond comes out smelling of roses. If the vote goes in favour of independence, he will be seen by many as the man who removed Austerity albeit temporarily. Although in the cool light of day he will be seen as promising loads of money I doubt he has, and with independence wont be able to borrow at a reasonable rate.
Herr Cameron on the other hand will if the yes side win, be seen as the man directly responsible for the fragmentation of the UK. Even if the no vote wins he has had to pledge so many devolutionary powers to Scotland, the rest of the UK will want some of the same, so we all can look forwards to unsettled times ahead. The English wont put up with him promising more cash for the Scottish NHS whilst continuing with his "long term economic plan" with the remainder of the UK. He really has shot himself up the bum, because whatever happens Salmond has beat him. Salmond cant lose because the yes vote will get him basically what he wants and the no vote will give him more power without the danger of losing the currency support of Stirling, the Bank of England and the investment from the UK he would otherwise risk losing. Just like Herr Cameron, Salmond may be a total tosser, but a cleverer tosser than Herr Cameron.
Salmond has played a blinder which is more than can be said for Herr Cameron and his serial pledge signing buddy Clegg.

It does begin to look as if the Scottish referendum will be a game changer.
I still hope the 'no's' have it

bobby wrote:Well The day of decision is here, as I now see it Herr Cameron is on a hiding to nothing whereas win or lose Alex Salmond comes out smelling of roses. If the vote goes in favour of independence, he will be seen by many as the man who removed Austerity albeit temporarily. Although  in the cool light of day he will be seen as  promising loads of money I doubt he has, and with independence wont be able to borrow at a reasonable rate.
Herr Cameron on the other hand will if the yes side win, be seen as the man directly responsible for the fragmentation of the UK. Even if the no vote wins he has had to pledge so many devolutionary powers to Scotland, the rest of the UK will want some of the same, so we all can look forwards to unsettled times ahead. The English wont put up with him promising more cash for the Scottish NHS whilst continuing with his "long term economic plan" with the remainder of the UK. He really has shot himself up the bum, because whatever happens Salmond has beat him. Salmond cant lose because the yes vote will get him basically what he wants and the no vote will give him more power without the danger of losing the currency support of Stirling, the Bank of England and the investment from the UK he would otherwise risk losing. Just like Herr Cameron, Salmond may be a total tosser, but a cleverer tosser than Herr Cameron.
Salmond has played a blinder which is more than can be said for Herr Cameron and his serial pledge signing buddy Clegg.

Bobby I am hoping that the NO vote will win it myself Daughter & Grand Daughter all voted NO, but just a few days ago a whistleblower from the Scottish NHS leaked a document that said the budget for 2015/16 would be £400-£450 Million short and Salmond would have cut our NHS by around £500 Million if the answer to the vote was yes. I am hoping the NO vote gets more than enough to knock Salmond on his ass and too show the people that have been taken up by his spin to turn on him and to find him out for what he really stands for.

After the last two weeks the Tories can be in no doubt that Scotlands hatred for Tories is very much alive and growing stronger, I think the one MP we have here in Scotland will be gone after the 2015 general election.

Big day today Redflag, good luck for Scotland.