Is the United Kingdom doomed?

First topic message reminder :

Exactly what I’ve been predicting for a long time. I said that if the Tories, so hated in Scotland that they have only one MP, came to power at Westminster again, the Scots would decide that they’d rather go it alone. Apparently, Scottish independence now has majority backing north of the border and in the UK as a whole, according to a new poll.

Research by ComRes for ‘The Independent on Sunday’ and ‘The Sunday Mirror’ found that support for the move had risen sharply over recent months. The results are a boost for First Minister Alex Salmond as his Scottish National Party prepares to hold its autumn conference in Inverness.

In the UK overall, 39% of those surveyed agreed that Scotland should be an independent country - an increase of six points since May. The number disagreeing with the statement had fallen four points to 38%.
In Scotland, the proportion supporting independence was up 11 points over the period at 49%. Some 37% disagreed - down by nine points.

The SNP, which won an unprecedented overall majority in May elections, has promised to hold a referendum on independence towards the end of its five-year term.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/majority-back-scottish-independence-193447501.html

If you want to kill off the United Kingdom, there is no better way

Extracts from an article by Gordon Brown:-

"As the price for keeping the American union together, California has just two members of the US Senate to represent its 38 million citizens, the same as Wyoming has to represent its 583,000 people. Similarly, the price New South Wales pays for Australian unity is one senator for every 580,000 people, in contrast to Tasmania’s one senator for every 40,000.

There is no democratic country whose main lawmaking body is made up of a first and second class of elected representatives. And there is no state in the world, federal or otherwise, in which one part of the country pays national income tax while the other part is exempt. Yet these are the two principal constitutional proposals that have come from the Conservative Party in its kneejerk response to UKIP’s English nationalism and an ill-thought-out drive to impose ‘English votes for English laws’.

By according a first-class status to England within Westminster and a second-class status to the rest, the constitution would be changed for ever. And the government would become a servant of two masters, with its ability to govern depending one day on the votes of the whole of the UK and the next day on English votes only.

Chaos would follow: for, once Scotland and then Wales and Northern Ireland became exempt from contributing to UK income tax – but still benefiting from it through Barnett formula allocations – English consent for pooling and sharing across the UK would quickly dissipate. Whether by malice or by mistake, the Conservatives would have done the Scottish nationalists’ job for them."

For the whole article:-
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/17/united-kingdom-english-votes-english-laws-ukip

Have to agree with all you have said in your post Ivan, at the moment Nicola Sturgeon leader of the SNP is banging the war drums only this time Scots will not listen to reason hearing what the Tories are saying regarding extra powers for Scots Parliament if call me Dave goes back on his word it will not be just Scotland thart leaves the Union Wales and Northern Ireland will join in the cry for Independence.

Leaving Cameron with egg all over him and the Tory party, he is DESPERATE to get back into power in 2015 just so he can cover up what he has done to the UK over the last 5 years.

Tam Dyell, poser of The West Lothian question, is quoted in today's Independent as recommending a total closure of the Scottish parliament.

Well, that would solve many of the current preoccupations of the Westminster village.

EVEL or just stupid: Are there any good answers to the West Lothian question?

From an article by Conor Pope:-

“The promise of greater devolution to Scotland has led us straight into the constitutional nightmare of who makes what laws. The road to Hell is paved with Holyrood intentions.

The Tories, of course, jumped at the chance, and have quickly proposed English Votes for English Laws (EVEL), which would prevent Scottish MPs from voting on matters that do not affect their constituents. While this may appear a simple solution, often in politics the simplest solutions are not the most desirable; sort of an inverse Occam’s Razor.

It is, simply put, the lazy option. While an easy answer on the face of it, EVEL would in fact throw up more constitutional problems than it solves. It would create different tiers of MP within a single chamber, with the implication that not all of those elected to the UK-wide Parliament have the best interests of the country at heart. You don’t have to take my word for it – constitutional expert Vernon Bogdanor goes into much greater detail on the mess that would ensue.

There is also some truth in Labour’s accusation that the Tory plans are ‘a stitch-up’. As Bogdanor points out, the Tories never had much of a problem when unionist MPs from the devolved Northern Ireland helped them to majorities in the ‘50s and ‘60s.”

For the whole article:-
http://labourlist.org/2014/10/evel-or-just-stupid-are-there-any-good-answers-to-the-west-lothian-question/

The Tories thought that English Votes for English Laws would embarrass Labour, but the effect has been to foment local aspirations in the North of England, including demands for improved cross-pennine communications and fast train links from west to east, as well as the usual London-to-everywhere.

Salmond's greatest fortune was the quality of his opponents

From an article by Ian Dunt:-

It does not seem to bother Salmond that he lost the vote. During the campaign it was a "once in a generation opportunity for Scotland". He dropped that line as soon as he lost.

Salmond had become so obsessed with independence he failed to use the powers he already had to tackle poverty. This is how it goes with ideologues: they do nothing for you. Salmond was considered a highly accomplished politician, but in truth this speaks more to the dearth of quality in British politics than it does to his talents.

The SNP tracked carefully the promises of new powers during the campaign and from the off – from literally the day after the vote – they insisted the promise had been broken. They could not allow Scots to believe that new powers were available within the union. They knew the early days were crucial in defining the public's impression of the process, in the same way the coalition managed to convince voters of the lunatic proposition that the global recession of 2008 was somehow Labour's fault.

Cameron's decision to give a speech immediately after the vote and talk about EVEL was one of the most irresponsible acts by a British PM for a generation. In one swoop he vindicated all the SNP's arguments about the venal, self-interested nature of Westminster. There is no insult so severe that it sufficiently encompasses the moral failings of the Conservative Party. Once upon a time they cared about British legal and political tradition and the good of the nation. Now they vandalise it for political advantage.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014/11/14/salmond-s-greatest-fortune-was-the-quality-of-his-opponents

Has he not only been self interested though Ivan? blaming everybody else but himself for any faults within the SNP?

This week's ScotNats conference reveals the step-change which has occurred as a result of the referendum. Scots who voted (successfully) to remain part of the United Kingdom are being made to feel disloyal and therefore irrelevant. Ms Sturgeon is clearly expecting to be king-maker after the next election if no single Party obtains a majority of seats in Westminster.

Never a dull moment!

All fun and games eh OW

oftenwrong wrote:This week's ScotNats conference reveals the step-change which has occurred as a result of the referendum.  Scots who voted (successfully) to remain part of the United Kingdom are being made to feel disloyal and therefore irrelevant.  Ms Sturgeon is clearly expecting to be king-maker after the next election if no single Party obtains a majority of seats in Westminster.

Never a dull moment!

Nobody can make you feel anything. The question is what sort of alternative to independence is being put forward.

If somebody gave you a million pounds cash Penderyn that would MAKE YOU feel better would it not? so do not say "nobody can make you feel anything" please.

Getting back to the thread, I really do think that the UK is doomed.
Since letting people in my neighbourhood know that I was going to start buying newspapers again, and telling them they all seem to be Tory run, I have heard their opinions too, which has opened my eyes I can assure you.
All of them and I mean all of them,blame Labour's position on ED our leader, and they do not think that he will make a good P.M.
This has only been force fed down their throats by the newspapers that they read, and they actually believe it without question, that is how brain dead they are, and these people are the ones voting bloody Tory at the G.E.
It did not matter how much I tried to change their minds because they had their heels stuck firmly in.

Ivan wrote:Salmond's greatest fortune was the quality of his opponents

From an article by Ian Dunt:-

It does not seem to bother Salmond that he lost the vote. During the campaign it was a "once in a generation opportunity for Scotland". He dropped that line as soon as he lost.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014/11/14/salmond-s-greatest-fortune-was-the-quality-of-his-opponents

It was the conference this weekend of the SNP Ivan and Salmond and Sturgeon are still going on about Independence even though Salmond had said before the referendum that would be it done for a generation, now there hoping for a hung Parliament in Westminister hoping that they will hold the balance of power  it is just as I said in an earlier post the price for supporting a gov't will be another referendum and no renewing of our nuclear deterent in Faslane.    They do not care that 55% of Scots said NO so this just proves its what THEY want not what is best for Scotland, so I will be testing out the Labour MPs to see if I can get a house somewherew in England A.S.A.P.

When you only have one thing to sell - that's what you have to try and sell.

True OW even when it is b/s

stuart torr wrote:If somebody gave you a million pounds cash Penderyn that would MAKE YOU feel better would it not? so do not say "nobody can make you feel anything" please.

No, it wouldn't. Nobody can make you feel anything, ever: it is mere black magic thinking.

Oh Penderyn you do talk rubbish i'm afraid, if someone stabbed you what would you feel? pain one presumes? so that person would have made you feel pain.

A snippet from Scotland heard on BBC4 Radio this morning commented that a significant number of people recruited to membership of the SNP since the Referendum had apparently voted "No" in that referendum.

What's going on up there? Is membership of SNP to become a measurement of your Scottishness?

It does seem like it rather does it not OW, AS LONG AS THEY DO NOT KNOW HOW EACH OTHER VOTES, YOU ARE STILL OCH AYE.

oftenwrong wrote:-
A significant number of people recruited to membership of the SNP since the referendum had apparently voted ‘No’ in that referendum.

That’s because they’ve been persuaded that they were duped into voting ‘No’. On the day after the referendum, the triumphant Cameron foolishly came out with his EVEL proposal, which was somehow twisted by the ‘Yes’ brigade into meaning that the promise of more autonomy for Scotland had already been broken. As Iain Dunt wrote: “They knew the early days were crucial in defining the public's impression of the process, in the same way the coalition managed to convince voters of the lunatic proposition that the global recession of 2008 was somehow Labour's fault.”

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2014/11/14/salmond-s-greatest-fortune-was-the-quality-of-his-opponents

Doesn’t it also show that referendums can’t be guaranteed to settle anything, not even when the turnout is as high as that one in Scotland? Do we honestly believe that if a referendum is held on our membership of the EU, and if the vote is in favour of staying in, that all those UKIP and far-right Tory headbangers will simply give up and go away? Someone is bound to cry ‘foul’ – the turnout won’t be big enough, the result too close, or, as in the Scottish example, a feeling is evoked that the voters were cheated.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t837-is-it-undemocratic-to-be-opposed-to-an-eu-referendum

Whilst on the subject of feelings (though I’m not sure what it has to be with the possible break-up of the United Kingdom!), surely there are physical feelings (such as touch and pain) but also emotional ones, such as feeling love for someone or despair at a loss? I think I understand what Penderyn is saying, in that nobody can make us get angry or feel embarrassed or guilty about something; such emotional responses come from within us and are for us to manage. On the other hand, Maya Angelou, who died in May this year, didn’t quite agree: "People will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel". So, as Aldous Huxley wrote in ‘Brave New World’, “you pays your money and you takes your choice”.  

I am afraid Ivan that Penderyn did not explain himself quite right then did he, as what he said as you can see in his post is that nobody can make us feel anything.

stuart torr wrote:Oh Penderyn you do talk rubbish i'm afraid, if someone stabbed you what would you feel? pain one presumes? so that person would have made you feel pain.

How do you know? I'd probably feel a great urge to kick him in the balls, actually.

Waste of time posting to you is it not? because if you were stabbed by someone in the heart you would feel pain for a few seconds then you would be dead.

Maybe we should forget the semantics and just be kind to each other. There are plenty of Tories out there who are more deserving of our wrath!    

Getting back on subject, if the SNP should hold the balance of power after the next election (a far more attractive proposition than UKIP doing so), will it herald the end of the United Kingdom? Nicola Sturgeon has categorically stated that the SNP won’t prop up a Tory government, but that it might come to an arrangement with Labour; would that involve a demand for a second referendum within the next five years?  

Another issue would arise if the Tories somehow stay in power and Cameron does keep his latest ‘cast iron’ promise to hold an EU referendum. If England votes to leave (possible but unlikely), and Scotland votes to stay in (highly probable), how much chaos could that cause to the union? And who could blame the good people of Wales and Northern Ireland if they expected to be treated separately?

I know I’m biased, but the best outcome of all of this has to be a majority Labour government. Then we don’t have the uncertainty of an EU referendum and the problems which could follow from it, and the promises which were made for more devolution for Scotland can be honoured, which might just calm the current febrile political mood there.

Well let us just hope for that labour majority then Ivan, in the mean time I shall try and calm down.

stuart torr wrote:Waste of time posting to you is it not? because if you were stabbed by someone in the heart you would feel pain for a few seconds then you would be dead.

How do you know?   Ever been dead?

Twice actually Penderyn for your information, life support machine for 8 weeks, they had to bring me back twice using the electrodes.
Took over 11 minutes on the first time as my relatives were there when they drew the curtains whilst doing the resus, second time my relatives thought they had lost me as it took 17 mins and I still have the scars from the electrodes.
So please do not be so pedantic, as you do not know what answers you may receive do you?

Ivan I am trying to stay calm honestly I am, but I AM FACED WITH POSTS LIKE THAT.

Boys! Boys!

I am staying calm boatlady, England v Scotland soon.

stuart torr wrote:Twice actually Penderyn for your information, life support machine for 8 weeks, they had to bring me back twice using the electrodes.
Took over 11 minutes on the first time as my relatives were there when they drew the curtains whilst doing the resus, second time my relatives thought they had lost me as it took 17 mins and I still have the scars from the electrodes.
So please do not be so pedantic, as you do not know what answers you may receive do you?

Who stabbed you, and did it force you to feel something? My father, a great looker-forward to passages-up-to-light and friendly welcomes,, but in my own view was deeply disappointed after being clinically dead: nobody made him feel anything whatever, and he didn't.

I have forgotten what this had to do with the Breakup of Britain, but in my view the PR man Cameron will be forced to hold a half-witted referendum, the Home-Counties mugs will obey their presslords and vote to leave the European Community, carrying 'England', and the less-controlled countries will vote sense, and that's when the break-up will become inevitable.

stuart torr wrote:I am staying calm boatlady, England v Scotland soon.

Keep calm Stuart Egland beat Scotland 3 1 in last nights football match and I for one are happy about the score as it stops the SNP from bragging about being Scots.

Penderyn wrote:

stuart torr wrote:Twice actually Penderyn for your information, life support machine for 8 weeks, they had to bring me back twice using the electrodes.
Took over 11 minutes on the first time as my relatives were there when they drew the curtains whilst doing the resus, second time my relatives thought they had lost me as it took 17 mins and I still have the scars from the electrodes.
So please do not be so pedantic, as you do not know what answers you may receive do you?

Who stabbed you, and did it force you to feel something?   My father, a great looker-forward to passages-up-to-light and friendly welcomes,, but in my own view was deeply disappointed after being clinically dead:  nobody made him feel anything whatever, and he didn't.

I have forgotten what this had to do with the Breakup of Britain, but in my view the PR man Cameron will be forced to hold a half-witted referendum, the Home-Counties mugs will obey their presslords and vote to leave the European Community, carrying 'England', and the less-controlled countries will vote sense, and that's when the break-up will become inevitable.

I can't correct anything on here anymore. First para should read: 'My father, a great looker-forward to passages-up-to light and friendly welcomes, was deeply disappointed after having been declared clinically dead, because nobody made him feel anything whatever, and he didn't.'

I am staying calm Redflag, even though the provocation gets worse at times, nice to have posters like yourself around.
Great result was it not last night.

stuart torr wrote:I am staying calm Redflag, even though the provocation gets worse at times, nice to have posters like yourself around.
Great result was it not last night.

For me it was brilliant because it socks it to the SNP, if Scotland had won we would have never heard the end of it. I did not know you had been so ill stuart you also said this shower of evil vile SCUM is trying to stop your money after being so ill.

Well to a certain poster I have not been ill Redflag, because he is trying to wind me up at the moment.

stuart torr wrote:Well to a certain poster I have not been ill Redflag, because he is trying to wind me up at the moment.

Just go off for a while stuart have a cuppa & a ciggy if you smoke if not have a cuppa & a biccy then come back on when you have reduced your blood pressure.

Just popping on the other forum to clear those messages up, will not take too long, got my cuppa and ciggy at the same time.

Penderyn. I’m sorry you were unable to edit your message. We had a couple of idiots who threw tantrums and set about deleting or editing away their messages on an industrial scale until they were stopped. Removing messages can obviously destroy threads by making it impossible to follow what other members are writing about.

The forum staff take the view that, once posted, messages belong to the forum, although that doesn’t remove the responsibility of the poster if the messages are libellous, racist, homophobic or sexist. After what had happened, we decided not to allow posters to delete their messages and only to allow them to edit them for the first 15 minutes after posting. I have now increased that to one hour after posting, which should give sufficient time for anyone to change something they’ve written.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I would say:-
- Unless a message is very short, it’s best to write it elsewhere and then copy/paste it to here. Occasionally there have been glitches where messages have failed to post and are lost.
- Use the preview to check what you’ve written before sending it.
- If you do need to edit a message, there is no need to fill in that annoying ‘reason for editing’ box unless further messages have already been posted on the thread.

Message to all members using this thread – would you kindly have your private conversations via the personal messaging system? Can we please stick to the subject of the future (if any) of the UK? Thanks.

stuart torr wrote:Just popping on the other forum to clear those messages up, will not take too long, got my cuppa and ciggy at the same time.

Nice one stuart I gave up ciggys about one year ago but still want one but am determined not to give in to the craving.

Do not blame you Redflag.