Are Cameron and Osborne's days numbered?

First topic message reminder :

We seem to have had a thread about Milliband and time running out for his leadership but now there seem to be more and more knives coming out for Vatman and Dobbing, I'll let you decide who is who?

It now seems more and more of their own side (Tory MP's) are openly speaking out against them........

Latest...

Nadine Dorries: David Cameron And George Osborne Are 'Arrogant Posh Boys'


David Cameron and George Osborne are "arrogant posh boys" who do not understand the lives of ordinary people, according to Tory MP Nadine Dorries.

Speaking on the BBC's Daily Politics programme on Monday, the MP for Mid-Bedfordshire was asked if she thought the prime minister and chancellor were out of touch with voters.

"Unfortunately I think that not are only Cameron and Osborne two posh boys who don't understand the price of milk," she said. "They are too arrogant posh boys who show no remorse, no contrition and no passion to want to understand the lives of others - and that is their real crime."
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/23/nadine-dorries-david-cameron-posh-boys_n_1445068.html?ref=uk-politics&ref=uk

It seems I have stumbled into some sycophantic mutual appreciation society with a Royal " we " status.

Happy days are here again.

Ode to a Social Misfit

Got me worried, stressin, my vision's blurried
The question is will I live? No one in the world loves me
I'm headed for danger, don't trust strangers
Put one in the chamber whenever I'm feelin this anger
Don't wanna make excuses, cause this is how it is
What's the use unless we're shootin no one notices the youth
It's just me against the world baby


Me against the world

It's just me against the world

Ooooh yeah, ooo-hooo

It's just me against the world

Me against the world

Cause it's just me against the world baby

Hey!!

Me against the world

Ooooh yeah

I got nuttin to lose
It's just me against the world baby

I got nothing to lose

Applicable also to any member of the Tory-led Coalition

It is like having a debate with a ventriliquists dummy, this intellectual dwarf is incapable of using his own brain or tongue in any post about anything, he surfs the net for " brainy quotes " and actually believes he is clever.

Mind boggling deusion, just mind boggling, over 4000 posts of regurgitated quotes and he calles me a social misfit, its just freakin hilarious.

Politicians love morons.

" I really must stop smoking this stuff - it's doing me no good at all..."

* epic fail *.

(colourbox.com)

Is that a self portrait, fish ?

Tosh wrote:

if we want to have our own currency we will have to set up the Mechanism

Thank you for agreeing with me, please go away, I am losing my will to live conversing with you.

When did you become admin on this forum, unlike you I am not likely to be banned from the forum where as you are if you carry on with your CHILDISH DRIVEL, because your posts are so INANE. I can see by your reply's that you have been educated above your IQ level, so please post some more it will give the rest of fellow boarders a good laugh.

Tosh. Perhaps I should first address your personal comments. Shirina is the only person here who can make anyone “go away”, and usually that will be with the support of at least two moderators. I gave the title ‘sage’ to the father of the forum for two reasons: he’s often given me sound advice when I’ve sought it, and he displayed on the following thread so much knowledge that couldn’t be obtained just by surfing the net:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t39-extremely-difficult-quiz-questions

I don’t want Scotland to leave the UK, primarily because I don’t want to lose 40+ Labour MPs, which would make the election of a Labour government more difficult (though not impossible – Labour would still have won in 1997, 2001 and 2005). However, if I lived in Scotland I could be tempted to vote for independence to ensure that never again would I be subject to diktats from Tories in Westminster.

I find your other political comments rather superficial and would respectfully suggest you are more at home educating believers with your impressive knowledge of science and evolution.

I voted for David Miliband because voter surveys suggested he was ‘a winner’, but I’ve since realised that he was much too much of a Blairite for those in the Labour movement who want to recapture the spirit of 1945, when the country was last rebuilt after an attack from right-wing extremists. I’ve also been impressed in the last few months by the way in which Ed has grown into the job, and with Labour 10% ahead in the polls, I don’t see a problem.

I also don’t see ‘unions’ as a dirty word, in fact just the opposite. Unions fight for health and safety at work, which this government is determined to destroy (and that after Cameron apologised for the Hillsborough disaster!). When unions had greater clout, this country was more equal and people had greater job security; now British people work some of the longest hours in Europe, and for what? So that the fat cats can stash more of this country’s wealth overseas. My union spent hundreds of pounds when I needed its help, and I’ll never forget that.

You’re quite wrong to say that “as long as the economy is in trouble Labour stays in opposition”. The Tories catchphrase that “it’s all Labour’s fault” has lost all credibility, as the audience groans on ‘Question Time’ illustrate. This country was out of recession when this Tory-dominated government took power, yet the incompetent Osborne, who has no qualifications in economics and whose only previous experience of work was folding towels in Selfridge’s, has plunged us into a double-dip recession.

Labour didn’t “steer us” into anything. Gordon Brown bailed out the banks with hours to spare before ATMs stopped functioning - was there any alternative? He was widely acclaimed on the world stage for his leadership in tackling the global crisis, but Murdoch’s relentless media campaign (in return for a promise from the Tories of BSkyB and the break-up of the BBC) ensured that Brown was turned into a pariah by an easily-duped public.

Labour will win the next election comfortably, for reasons I’ve already stated. Please tell me who you think who didn’t vote Tory in 2010 will decide to next time? Those who thought the NHS was safe in Tory hands? Students who had their tuition fees trebled? The 700,000 public sector workers who have become unemployed? The disabled people who have had their benefits taken away? The people made homeless, maybe? And all while millionaires have been given a £40,000 a year tax refund! No way, and I don't even think another Falklands War (which we might well lose) would save Cameron's skin.

" I really must stop smoking this stuff - it's doing me no good at all..."
And I refuse to discuss what I have been doing with my right hand to make me need these glasses.

Television pictures from Syria today have shown military aircraft of that Country's government dropping bombs upon its own citizens.

Is it over-dramatising to compare the activities of a British Government which has chosen more subtle ways of making war upon its reluctant public?

Assad and Cameron/Osborne seem to have in common a distaste for the common people.

And I refuse to discuss what I have been doing with my right hand to make me need these glasses..

Sweetie, we had casual sex once, it did not work out, get over it.

Ivan I will respond to your bare assertions tomorrow, unfortunately for you my knowledge of politics, economics, unions and business exceeds my knowledge of science and evolution.

One small comment, Gordon Brown was in charrge of the banks he saved, his job was not to save them but to govern them, that is what government entails. As it happens he did not save the banks, the tax-payer did, and I object to paying the cost of poor governance.

"the banks he saved"


"he did not save the banks"

It must be so frustrating when one is contradicting oneself.

Morning Ivan,

I haven't a clue why you have interpreted my comment " go away " in the same vein as the resident village idiot nor do I care. Secondly, oftenwrong has been on forums for years,and for years he has disguised his intellect, anyone who creeps about forums posting cryptic conundrums and copy/paste quotes is obviously trying to be clever, and trying too hard. I have always found pretension rather an amusing idiosyncracy, it says a lot about a person's self image.

Self determination is a rational concept to any free thinking person, in my case I have had enough of the paralysing pendulum of political ideologies. Britain had two long periods of both parties in power and to be frank we are still miles behind the Germans and Scandinavians. In a nutshell we can do no worse to ourselves than has been done to us in the last 30 years, consensus politics suits the middle ground and most Scots are now in the middle, we have no interest in lunges to the left and right, we just want someone to empty our bins the same way twice.

Jingoistic nations like a statesman as their spokesperson, Ed lacks personality and authority, he reminds me of William Hague, it doesn't matter how intelligent he is, he is uninspiring and unelectable. If any opposition is not ahead in mid-term polls in the middle of the worst recession in history then they are politically inept, it is easier to criticise policy than implement it. I have no need to remind any political enthusiast how long a day is in politics, there is only one poll on one day that really matters.

Unions should have no say in the Labour party, period, its a vote loser, their sole function is to protect their member's rights and not get involved in political ideologies. The past role of the unions in politics is a dinosaur, one that most want extinct, nobody gives a monkeys about class labels, we are all working class.

Labour were running our economy for 10-11 years prior to the collapse, ample time to balance our economy, protect it from the inevitable fluctuations of global supply and demand, regulate the banks and tackle the malaise of the long term unemployed and sick. They did none of the above, it doesn't matter what caused the crisis, the simple fact is we as a nation were not prepared for it and suffered more than most. Modern elections are won and lost on the economy not the NHS or Education, and Labour are perceived as responsible for the current state of our economy, I am not saying I agree with this perception but it exists nonetheless.

Old style socialism is a dead meme, it evolved into the middle ground and the sooner old Labour stalwarts realise this the better.

It must be so frustrating when one is contradicting oneself.

You must be desperate to resort to pulling my statements out of context, next you will be editing my posts lol. Any idiot would realise I was reiterating Ivan's position and refuting it.

Just pathetic.

Socialism and Capitalism have one major weakness, they both ignore human nature, this is not a small problem for any system being run by humans for humans.

I had a great deal of respect for Gordon Brown until he said " no more boom and bust ", the global free market is built on this premise, and he cannot control the world, governments should know this and plan accordingly, it aint rocket science.

The welfare state is essential because of boom and bust, or as its known, supply and demand.

I haven't a clue why you have interpreted my comment "go away "

Tosh. As I said previously, only Shirina can make people “go away”. If you don’t want to talk to someone, you don’t need to insult them, you could just ignore them, but I get the impression that you find that very hard to do.

Jingoistic nations like a statesman as their spokesperson…it doesn't matter how intelligent Ed is, he is uninspiring and unelectable

An opinion poll yesterday had Labour 15% ahead, so it sounds as if Ed Miliband is electable. I remember people saying that Thatcher was unelectable in the late 70s – and she was personally less popular than James Callaghan – but it didn’t stop the Tories winning the 1979 election. Do you think that Attlee was more 'statesmanlike' than Churchill in 1945?

He reminds me of William Hague

Ed Miliband is nothing like that pillock in the baseball cap, the multimillionaire who shares rooms with young men to save money, the prat who told us that Gaddafi was on his way to Venezuela, the so-called minister who wanted to violate a foreign embassy a couple of weeks ago.

Old style socialism is a dead meme….and the sooner old Labour stalwarts realise this the better

Rubbish. There’s never been a greater need for the spirit of rebuilding which came after 1945, when the country had to recover from an earlier attack of fascism.

Unions should have no say in the Labour Party….their sole function is to protect their member's rights and not get involved in political ideologies

Unions set up the Labour Party and represent a hell of a lot more people than the corporate interests which finance and run the Tory Party. Of course unions will have political ideologies in a capitalist system where most companies are determined to pay as little to their employees as they can get away with.

Consensus politics suits the middle ground

That’s just superficial claptrap. Just who decides where this mythical 'middle ground' is? The centre of political gravity in the UK has moved a long way to the right in the last thirty or so years. In 1979, the standard rate of income tax was 33% and VAT was 8%, now both are 20%. That fact alone shows the switch in emphasis from direct to indirect taxation, which is a right-wing trait.

Labour were running our economy for 10-11 years prior to the collapse, ample time to balance our economy, protect it from the inevitable fluctuations of global supply and demand….we as a nation were not prepared for it and suffered more than most

When Labour came to power in 1997, debt was 43.76% of our GDP. Labour brought that figure below 40% and kept it there until the global credit crisis occurred. They also “fixed the roof while the sun was shining” – the school roof and the hospital roof, both of which had been neglected by the Tories, no doubt as a justification for future privatisation. There was nothing that Labour could have done to prevent us from suffering from the global meltdown, and we suffered from it more than most because Thatcher had turned us into primarily a financial service-based economy. Don’t you remember her remark: “Don’t worry if you don’t make anything, just make money”?

Labour are perceived as responsible for the current state of our economy

You’re behind the times. These idiots have taken a country which was out of recession by June 2010 into a double-dip. A YouGov poll found that only 1% of voters think that Osborne is the best Chancellor in the last 30 years. Who do you think was voted the best Chancellor?
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t319p30-favourite-tweets

Socialism and Capitalism have one major weakness, they both ignore human nature

Wrong. They both tap into human nature. Capitalism (especially the prevailing ideology of Milton Friedman) claims that humans are governed by self-interest. Socialism recognises that we can be better than animals and are capable of a degree of altruism.

We are all working class

LOL. Try telling that to the Windsors, the 20 millionaires in Cameron’s cabinet and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

Unfortunately for you my knowledge of politics, economics, unions and business exceeds my knowledge of science and evolution

You hide it well. If you really want to expand your apparently limited knowledge of modern-day politics and economics, try reading ‘The Shock Doctrine’ by Naomi Klein, a review of which can be found here:-
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t601-the-shock-doctrine-by-naomi-klein

"Any idiot would realise I was reiterating Ivan's position and refuting it."

"Any idiot"? sureley you mean every idiot? Because your inferiority complex (which is sad but plain to see) is forcing you to believe that every one is an "idiot" except yourself.
To counter when cornered for a careless error being noted (self contradiction) with abuse "idiot" is another confirmation of an iferiority complex.
This is attitude of yours is "pathetic" so take a good look in the mirror and give yourself a good talking to.

Ivan,

You are trapped in a time warp, even Dr Who would concede the average persons qualty of life and standard of living has vastly improved since 1979, this is why there is not a cigarette paper between the policies of all the major parties, they are all fighting over the middle ground.

Did Labour reduce indirect taxation in 13 years, yes or no ?

Did Labour repeal any anti-union legislation, yes or no ?

Did Labour increase or decrease Tory banking regulation, yes or no ?

Finally, if you think this country was on the road to recovery in June 2010 then you are living in another dimension, all parties accepted this was going to be a long haul out of a deep hole, a hole dug by Labours economic mismanagement.

Unlike America we could not embark on a Keynsian style fiscal stimulus, our government had been stimulating the economy for a decade through public sector spending, the cupboard was bare, the casino banking party was over and now it was time to clear up the mess.

I am familiar with the opinions of Naomi Klein and her mentor Noam Chomsky, their views represent American paradigms and the effect of free market globalisation on American democracy.

We are nothing like America for goodness sake, the only thing we have in common with them is a language.

To counter when cornered for a careless error being noted (self contradiction)

If you conside posting Ivans position and then refuting it a self contradiction, then you are a complete cretin, please stop digging yourself a deeper hole with your psycho babble.

Take your anal nit picking ass to some other unfortunates door, because I aint buyng, you hear sucker ?


Account suspended for 24 hours while the moderation team consider whether further sanctions are required. Ivan

Ah!!!! now we have the response of a real loser which of course is abuse.

"Take your anal nit picking ass to some other unfortunates door"

I really couldn't find a more unfortunate than yourself now could I?

Unable to "hear" I've gone deaf all of a sudden.

If someone is genuinely seeking martyrdom, are we selfish to deny it?

oftenwrong wrote:If someone is genuinely seeking martyrdom, are we selfish to deny it?

Definitely not OW, they where looking for trouble and they got it from Mel and Ivan, he/she is lucky they got away with the drivel for so long.

I suppose one must expect some occasional minor inconvenience from those who equate 'having the last word' with actually winning an argument...

Sometimes I really miss my late mother-in-law. But I always was a lousy shot.

Assad and Cameron/Osborne seem to have in common a distaste for the common people..

I wonder if Assad can sing this song like an Old Etonian?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKFTtYx2OHc

Tosh. Did Labour cut indirect taxation at all? Yes, they reduced VAT on gas and electricity to 5%, the minimum allowed under EU law. They also reduced the standard rate of VAT from 17.5% to 15% for a period of thirteen months (which included two Christmases) to inject over £12 billion into the economy. By contrast, as soon as they came to power, the Tories sucked money out of circulation when they increased VAT to 20% (despite saying that they wouldn’t) – that’s economic incompetence in a recession. You don’t cure anaemia by blood-letting.

The standard of living did improve for many people up to about 2008, but not for everyone. Heath panicked in 1972 when unemployment reached 1 million, but ever since it’s been much higher and communities such as those Welsh valleys which Thatcher decimated haven’t had a better standard of living. As to the quality of life, I would argue that has deteriorated, with UK employees working some of the longest hours in Europe and with less job security.

Labour repealed the Tory ban on union membership at the GCHQ intelligence services centre, and implemented a number of pro-union measures, starting with the minimum wage in 1998. Labour stopped employers from compulsorily retiring workers at 65 and brought in an entitlement to 28 days of paid leave annually. Take a look at the Employment Relations Act 1999, the Employment Act 2002, the Employment Relations Act 2004 and the Employment Act 2008 if you want all the details.

Some of the measures introduced in those Acts include:-
- Power to ensure national minimum wage compliance by employers
- A reduction in the qualifying period to claim unfair dismissal from 2 years to 1
- Statutory right to unpaid parental leave of 3 months for all employees
- Rights for fixed-term workers
- Maternity leave provisions of 6 months’ paid and 6 months’ unpaid for mothers (2 weeks’ paid paternity leave for fathers)
- Employee protection from detrimental action in circumstances relating to union membership
- Regulations for the activities of employment agencies
- Outlawing the practice of employers offering inducements not to be a member of a trade union
- Outlawing the blacklisting of trade unionists by employers

Great clip on YouTube, just a shame that people voted in such a disastrous way anyway in May 2010.

What makes Assad and Cameron very similar is that they are puppets of those people who REALLY make the decisions but who are rarely seen on television or mentioned in the Press.

Ivan wrote:Tosh. Did Labour cut indirect taxation at all? Yes, they reduced VAT on gas and electricity to 5%, the minimum allowed under EU law. They also reduced the standard rate of VAT from 17.5% to 15% for a period of thirteen months (which included two Christmases) to inject over £12 billion into the economy. By contrast, as soon as they came to power, the Tories sucked money out of circulation when they increased VAT to 20% (despite saying that they wouldn’t) – that’s economic incompetence in a recession. You don’t cure anaemia by blood-letting.

The standard of living did improve for many people up to about 2008, but not for everyone. Heath panicked in 1972 when unemployment reached 1 million, but ever since it’s been much higher and communities such as those Welsh valleys which Thatcher decimated haven’t had a better standard of living. As to the quality of life, I would argue that has deteriorated, with UK employees working some of the longest hours in Europe and with less job security.

Labour repealed the Tory ban on union membership at the GCHQ intelligence services centre, and implemented a number of pro-union measures, starting with the minimum wage in 1998. Labour stopped employers from compulsorily retiring workers at 65 and brought in an entitlement to 28 days of paid leave annually. Take a look at the Employment Relations Act 1999, the Employment Act 2002, the Employment Relations Act 2004 and the Employment Act 2008 if you want all the details.

Some of the measures introduced in those Acts include:-
- Power to ensure national minimum wage compliance by employers
- A reduction in the qualifying period to claim unfair dismissal from 2 years to 1
- Statutory right to unpaid parental leave of 3 months for all employees
- Rights for fixed-term workers
- Maternity leave provisions of 6 months’ paid and 6 months’ unpaid for mothers (2 weeks’ paid paternity leave for fathers)
- Employee protection from detrimental action in circumstances relating to union membership
- Regulations for the activities of employment agencies
- Outlawing the practice of employers offering inducements not to be a member of a trade union
- Outlawing the blacklisting of trade unionists by employers

Yes all good things achieved by the previous Labour government. However the Tories want to roll back these achievements back to the 80s (1880s perhaps). They have already undermined the National Minimum Wage by compelling those on the dole to work for JSA and the princely sum of £60 odd a week.

I must also offer my apologies for failing to post more often on this excellent forum. I tend to get bogged down with others as well.

Did Labour cut indirect taxation at all? Yes, they reduced VAT on gas and electricity to 5%, the minimum allowed under EU law. They also reduced the standard rate of VAT from 17.5% to 15% for a period of thirteen months (which included two Christmases) to inject over £12 billion into the economy. By contrast, as soon as they came to power, the Tories sucked money out of circulation when they increased VAT to 20% (despite saying that they wouldn’t) – that’s economic incompetence in a recession. You don’t cure anaemia by blood-letting.

Ivan...The uk rate of 20% is less or very similar to most EU countries, with many at 21 to 23%. They also charge VAT on food stuffs and water supplies and the UK does not....so does this make EU countries more Tory or right wing than our lot?....including the eu socialist governemnts

LWS wrote:

Ivan wrote:Tosh. Did Labour cut indirect taxation at all? Yes, they reduced VAT on gas and electricity to 5%, the minimum allowed under EU law. They also reduced the standard rate of VAT from 17.5% to 15% for a period of thirteen months (which included two Christmases) to inject over £12 billion into the economy. By contrast, as soon as they came to power, the Tories sucked money out of circulation when they increased VAT to 20% (despite saying that they wouldn’t) – that’s economic incompetence in a recession. You don’t cure anaemia by blood-letting.

The standard of living did improve for many people up to about 2008, but not for everyone. Heath panicked in 1972 when unemployment reached 1 million, but ever since it’s been much higher and communities such as those Welsh valleys which Thatcher decimated haven’t had a better standard of living. As to the quality of life, I would argue that has deteriorated, with UK employees working some of the longest hours in Europe and with less job security.

Labour repealed the Tory ban on union membership at the GCHQ intelligence services centre, and implemented a number of pro-union measures, starting with the minimum wage in 1998. Labour stopped employers from compulsorily retiring workers at 65 and brought in an entitlement to 28 days of paid leave annually. Take a look at the Employment Relations Act 1999, the Employment Act 2002, the Employment Relations Act 2004 and the Employment Act 2008 if you want all the details.

Some of the measures introduced in those Acts include:-
- Power to ensure national minimum wage compliance by employers
- A reduction in the qualifying period to claim unfair dismissal from 2 years to 1
- Statutory right to unpaid parental leave of 3 months for all employees
- Rights for fixed-term workers
- Maternity leave provisions of 6 months’ paid and 6 months’ unpaid for mothers (2 weeks’ paid paternity leave for fathers)
- Employee protection from detrimental action in circumstances relating to union membership
- Regulations for the activities of employment agencies
- Outlawing the practice of employers offering inducements not to be a member of a trade union
- Outlawing the blacklisting of trade unionists by employers

Yes all good things achieved by the previous Labour government. However the Tories want to roll back these achievements back to the 80s (1880s perhaps). They have already undermined the National Minimum Wage by compelling those on the dole to work for JSA and the princely sum of £60 odd a week.

I must also offer my apologies for failing to post more often on this excellent forum. I tend to get bogged down with others as well.

That is the worst about some people they are quite willing to say that Labour never done but can not bring themselves to say the things that the Labour party did, maybe we should start saying that Labour never handed over 49% of the NHS to the private health sector or brought in cuts to the low paid or vulnerable and did not have dinners at No10 or Chequers costing £250,000 with a policy change for dessert.

Blueturando said:Ivan...The uk rate of 20% is less or very similar to most EU countries, with many at 21 to 23%. They also charge VAT on food stuffs and water supplies and the UK does not....so does this make EU countries more Tory or right wing than our lot?....including the eu socialist governemnts

Hello Bluey.

The standard VAT rate in Austria is 20% The standard VAT rate in Belgium is 21% The standard VAT rate in Croatia is 25% The standard VAT rate in the Netherlands is 19% The standard VAT rate in France is 19.6% The standard VAT rate in Italy is 21% The standard VAT rate in Norway is 25%. The standard VAT rate in Spain is 21%

These ar just some of the European VAT rates, and yes you are correct in what you say. The thing is Blue, what is it you are trying to tell us. what you have stated albeit correct, doesn't mean much unless you tell us what lays behind your statement.

I am familiar with the opinions of Naomi Klein and her mentor Noam Chomsky, their views represent American paradigms and the effect of free market globalisation on American democracy. We are nothing like America for goodness sake, the only thing we have in common with them is a language.

Tosh. Naomi Klein is Canadian, and her book ‘The Shock Doctrine’ concerns much more than just the effects of globalisation on the USA. Milton Friedman’s ideas were incubated at the University of Chicago School of Economics, but sadly they have been implemented all over the world, starting with Pinochet’s Chile after 1973. Klein points out how those who want to implement unpopular free market policies now routinely do so by taking advantage of certain features of the aftermath of major disasters, be they economic, political, military or natural in nature.

‘The Shock Doctrine’ was published in September 2007, but it’s easy to see how Friedmanite policies have been followed by our rancid Tory-dominated government since May 2010. Klein argues that when a society experiences a major 'shock' (in our case the global credit crunch), there is a widespread desire for a rapid and decisive response to correct the situation. That provides an opportunity for unscrupulous politicians to implement policies which go far beyond a legitimate response to disaster.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t601-the-shock-doctrine-by-naomi-klein

That provides an opportunity for unscrupulous politicians to implement policies which go far beyond a legitimate response to disaster.

As an alternative to the popular "Good day to bury bad news".

The uk rate of 20% is less or very similar to most EU countries, with many at 21 to 23%. They also charge VAT on food stuffs and water supplies and the UK does not....so does this make EU countries more Tory or right wing than our lot?....including the eu socialist governments

blueturando. I agree with bobby, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make (and I’d love to know where these 'socialist governments' are in the EU!). Tosh asked me if Labour had reduced indirect taxes while in power, and so I produced two examples of where they had.

VAT is applied to some food and drink in the UK. It’s levied on confectionery, crisps, savoury snacks, all hot takeaways, ice cream, soft drinks and mineral water.

It’s a fact that right-wing politicians prefer indirect taxes on spending to direct taxes on income and wealth. That’s because, as always, they want to help the better off, and taxes such as VAT hurt the poor disproportionately. There was no better example of this than when Thatcher came to power and immediately cut the top rate of income tax from 83% to 60%, paying for it by increasing VAT from 8% to 15%.

Just as with Cameron and Osborne, Thatcher claimed to have “no plans” to increase VAT, yet papers released under the 30-year rule have shown that Geoffrey Howe informed civil servants at the Treasury well before the 1979 election of the planned hike. My point was that increasing VAT to 20% in January 2011 was the very opposite to what was required to stimulate the economy, and now we're in a double-dip recession.

For the record, VAT is 15% in Luxembourg, 17% in Cyprus, 18% in Malta and Spain, and 19% in Germany and the Netherlands. (In Switzerland, which is outside the EU but which is generally a low tax and low spend country, VAT is 8%). But all that misses the point. As with so much else, the Tories didn’t have the guts to tell us of their intention to raise VAT from its 17.5% level.

IVAN wrote

the Tories sucked money out of circulation when they increased VAT to 20% (despite saying that they wouldn’t) – that’s economic incompetence in a recession. You don’t cure anaemia by blood-letting.

This is what you wrote Ivan and I am saying it's not true. We sit kind of in the middle when it comes to the standard rate of VAT amongst EU countries, with a few countries recently increasing their rates....like Spain to 21% (Socialists) and Ireland to 23%.
So are your VAT views just about blindly attacking the tories, or would you also suggest that other EU countries are 'Blood suckers' too...including Socialist governments?........And I haven't even mentioned food stuffs and Water supplies

oftenwrong wrote:That provides an opportunity for unscrupulous politicians to implement policies which go far beyond a legitimate response to disaster.

As an alternative to the popular "Good day to bury bad news".

Thanks OW you are quite right and always on the ball with these matters.

blueturando. Spain has had a Conservative government since last December, which is probably why it raised the standard rate of VAT in the country from 18% to 21% on 1 September.

I’m not ‘blindly’ attacking the Tories, my eyes are wide open. Every Tory government since Heath introduced VAT at 10% has raised it, Labour has never done so. Denis Healey reduced VAT to 8% in the 1970s, Gordon Brown reduced it to 5% on domestic fuel, and Alistair Darling reduced the standard rate to 15% for thirteen months to inject some money into the economy.

VAT is only one of a number of ways in which governments raise money, so just comparing our rate with those of other countries doesn’t tell us a great deal. After all, this government can afford to give £40,000 per annum tax cuts to millionaires – who probably won’t spend the money because they don’t need to. What I said was that at that point in time, when demand in the economy was so fragile, raising our VAT from 17.5% to 20% was a big mistake, and subsequent events have highlighted Osborne’s incompetence.

Ivan wrote:blueturando. Spain has had a Conservative government since last December, which is probably why it raised the standard rate of VAT in the country from 18% to 21% on 1 September.

I’m not ‘blindly’ attacking the Tories, my eyes are wide open. Every Tory government since Heath introduced VAT at 10% has raised it, Labour has never done so. Denis Healey reduced VAT to 8% in the 1970s, Gordon Brown reduced it to 5% on domestic fuel, and Alistair Darling reduced the standard rate to 15% for thirteen months to inject some money into the economy.

VAT is only one of a number of ways in which governments raise money, so just comparing our rate with those of other countries doesn’t tell us a great deal. After all, this government can afford to give £40,000 per annum tax cuts to millionaires – who probably won’t spend the money because they don’t need to. What I said was that at that point in time, when demand in the economy was so fragile, raising our VAT from 17.5% to 20% was a big mistake, and subsequent events have highlighted Osborne’s incompetence.

Thanks Ivan for pointing out the VAT increases within Europe, here the Tories raised it from 171/2% to 20% as soon as they where elected, and with Osbourn looking for another 10 Billion in savings do not be too surprised if they do increase VAT again to help put the poorer in a worse state than what they are now, as they certainly will not ask the wealthy or the Millionaires to cough up more after all it was the low paid and the unemployed that caused the banking crash ha ha ha.