Female human rights in Moslem cultures

by ROB Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Female human rights in Moslem cultures

Responding here to this “thread” title (in “links”), these two phrases, “female human rights” and “Muslim cultures” are in many instances mutually exclusive.

Context: The most populous “Muslim” nation, Indonesia, in its key document affirms its creation and status as a non-Muslim nation. Perhaps that’s why Indonesia seems not a breeding ground for Islamafascist terrorist murderers.

In stark contrast, “Muslim” nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia intentionally deny unalienable human rights to females. The intentional tolerance of this female-enslaving culture in Western nations, carried out under the guise of “multiculturalism”, sows seeds for the destruction of these nations’ democracies from within. To tolerate evil is to support evil, whether that evil be “secular”, “religious”, or “cultural.”

Snowyflake is “on it”, committed to doing all she knows how to do to break the chains of slavery which allow Muslim women in “Muslim” nations to be raped, tortured, hacked into pieces, executed by hit squads on the streets (a common taliban action), tortured, imprisoned in their own homes and in state-supported prisons, stoned to death, and subjected to other nearly unspeakable and unconscionable acts of state-endorsed violence.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:26 pm

Although female genital mutilations have been documented in a variety of faiths, including Christians, Muslims and Jews, some supporters of the Islamic faith claim that FGM is required practice. Yet scholars and theologians of Islam assert that female circumcision is not approved by their religious doctrines or any other religion. Theologians furthermore emphasize that in many major Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Pakistan, the procedure is almost never performed. Most of the African tribes that do perform this “operation,” believe that the excision is a custom decreed by their ancestors and must be upheld under all circumstances'

Read more: http://socyberty.com/issues/female-genital-mutilation-1-history/#ixzz283Nfpp2z

The practice of female genital mutilation/circumcision has dated back to ancient times. Female circumcision has existed for over 4,000-5,000 years originating in a period predating God’s covenant with Abraham to circumcise his people. The practice began in Egypt and was frequently performed by the ancient cultures of the Phoenicians, Hittites, and the ancient Egyptians.

21st. Century protestations therefore arrive a bit late, and coincidental with East-West tensions.

by boatlady Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:33 pm

Shirina, I think I would want to say that the abuses you are concerned with are not to do with religious belief at all, but with the use of religion as a political tool, which i will agree is a bit easier in a theocracy.

I would also want to agree with Oftenwrong, that there is a great appetite in the Western world for any evidence to support the proposition that Islam is in some way evil or bad. ('Axis of Evil' was the phrase I think that started it), and I believe that this has led to an increase of racist crime and an upsurge of right-wing political movements.

Therefore, when rightly condemning the fact that women and girls are abused and oppressed in some countries, I feel it is more accurate and less inflammatory to focus on the fact that for example these are largely relatively poor agrarian societies, where many individuals have little education and where it is therefore arguably easier for those hungry for political power to create a social situation in which quite horrible acts are carried out in the name of 'Allah' or some other religious concept.

It's also often a characteristic of village communities that the representatives of law and order can find it difficult to maintain a professional distance and therefore to enforce the law.

The context in which the abuse and oppression of any group takes place is always a complex one, and particularly so in the case under discussion, and I for one am not clear how the situation of women in these countries can be bettered, except by the time-honoured process of grass-roots protest, leading after significant time to legal and social reform. I can't think of any worthwhile social reform which has followed a different pattern. If you can, please let me know.

by snowyflake Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:58 pm

21st. Century protestations therefore arrive a bit late, and coincidental with East-West tensions.

I would have said it's about time someone protested such a practice. Male and female genital mutilation in the name of religion is most bizarre. Why does God care if you have a clitoris or a foreskin? He made you in his image and then wants you to carve bits of yourself away????

When something is blatantly wrong, sticking your head in the sand is not the answer to correcting the problem.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:11 pm

Perhaps the Ninth Crusade will be from the US to Somalia.

by methought Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:50 am

I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I decline your request, RoB

by Guest Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:48 am

methought wrote:
I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I decline your request, RoB

I do not post the contents of other posters’ private messages to me on the public forum. I do not appreciate the fact that you have posted the content of my private message on the public forum.

by methought Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:56 pm

I am sure you did not think I would appreciate the private message, RoB. If you wished to venture such offensive material, relevant to the discussion topic, this was the place to show your hand.

There are people who for reasons of belief, or feeling their status under threat, who will do things which free-thinking people wouldn't do. Religious belief, patriotism, unquestioning obedience or cowardice can lead some individuals to cause harm to others, just because they can get away with it.

The rule of law in a democratic country at least tries to judge everyone by the same standards. That is to their credit. Religious law is less open to moderation. There is much about Islamic politics which seems incomprehensible to reason and liberty. Nonetheless it is individuals who should be brought to international justice and not those who are held captive by the same political philosophy.

by Guest Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:25 pm

methought wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by methought Tue 2 Oct 2012 - 0:50
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t580p90-female-human-rights-in-moslem-cultures#27212
I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I decline your request, RoB

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by RockOnBrother Tue 2 Oct 2012 - 5:48
methought wrote:
I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

I decline your request, RoB
I do not post the contents of other posters’ private messages to me on the public forum. I do not appreciate the fact that you have posted the content of my private message on the public forum.

methought wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by methought on Tue 2 Oct 2012 - 22:56
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t580p90-female-human-rights-in-moslem-cultures#27274

I am sure you did not think I would appreciate the private message,¹ RoB. If you wished to venture such offensive material,² relevant to the discussion topic, this was the place to show your hand.³

You’ve not addressed, or even acknowledged, the content of my post of Tuesday 2 October 2012 at 05:48, “I do not post the contents of other posters’ private messages to me on the public forum. I do not appreciate the fact that you have posted the content of my private message on the public forum.” As publicly posting my own private message neither requires granting specific permission from myself to myself nor violates a confidence, I’ve chosen to publicly post herein my private message of Monday 1 October 2012 at 01:39 in its entirety.

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
From RockOnBrother To methought, Mon 1 Oct 2012 - 1:39

methought,

Please view this video. After doing so, I would very much appreciate you sending me a personal message with your reactions to viewing a male discharging nine rounds into the skull and brains of a helpless, innocent woman to the acclamation and with the approval of spectators (one of whom videoed the shooting), after first kidnapping, torturing, brutalizing, and raping her in concert with another male.

Thank you,

Rock

Video: Taliban publicly execute woman near Kabul
https://www.youtube.com/v/vCV61MYdRj8

I am unaware of any content authored and referenced by me in my private message of Monday 1 October 2012 at 01:39 of which a person concerned about the routine extreme brutalization of innocent Muslim women on our planet in the 21st Century would not appreciate being made aware.
The referenced video is not “offensive”, it is harshly informative. Conversely, the heinous act documented by the referenced video, perpetrated upon an innocent Muslim woman by a bestial male to the accolades of bestial male spectators, is not only offensive, it is despicable, heinous, and immoral.
Assuming adherence to applicable laws, Forumotion policies, and Cutting Edge rules, I am unaware of any requirement that I must be granted prior approval to convey substantive content via private message and/or public post as I choose.

The intent of my private message was to inform.

As I do not and will not post the contents of another poster’s private messages on the public forum without that poster’s permission, and as I do not appreciate anyone posting the content of my private messages on the public forum without my permission, please be assured that, barring unforeseen emergency circumstances, I shall not send to you any further private messages.

by boatlady Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:43 pm

Methought, thank you for your comments above.
The issue under discussion is an emotive one, and it is good to hear a response that relies on reason rather than emotion.
I feel, and have said already, that an emotional response to this issue serves no-one's interests, and indeed may well do harm.

by Guest Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:26 pm

Returning to the thread topic, on 6 July 2012, Ivan, at Snowyflake’s request, posted links to these two charities:

Violence is Not our Culture (VNC): http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/

Equality Now: http://www.equalitynow.org/

Ivan notes that these organizations exist to combat denial of human rights to Muslim women and girls living in “Muslim” countries nations through education and action, including sending letters and emails to governments to cease (a) stoning women for sexual “crimes”, (b) perpetrating female genital mutilation on women an d girls, (c) physically and sexually abusing and raping women and girls.

Ivan also notes that this is a campaign by Muslim women to change this culture from inside; thus, this is a real “grassroots” campaign.

Excerpts from both websites will follow shortly.

by oftenwrong Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:36 pm

At what point does natural concern give way to prurient interest, I wonder?
There has always been a segment of our popular press which covers salacious topics in a condemnatory manner that lends a veneer of legitimacy .

by Guest Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:49 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
At what point does natural concern give way to prurient interest, I wonder?

I doubt if you wonder about anything concerning this topic except how best to derail substantive conversation about this topic.

oftenwrong wrote:
There has always been a segment of our popular press which covers salacious topics in a condemnatory manner that lends a veneer of legitimacy .

As the two links provided by Snowyflake, originally posted by Ivan, and reposted by me twenty-three minutes ago do not link to “our popular press”, one can correctly infer and conclude that the text referenced above is intended to derail substantive conversation about the thread topic.

by oftenwrong Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:55 pm

Life's going to be a bit dull if the only new commentary permitted has to relate directly to something already mentioned. Might even slow down the torrent of Wikipedia if strictly applied.

by Guest Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:45 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Life's going to be a bit dull if the only new commentary permitted has to relate directly to something already mentioned.

Except for the requirement that commentary adhere to applicable laws, Forumotion policies, and Cutting Edge rules, I am unaware that “commentary” must be “permitted commentary” to be posted hereon.

oftenwrong wrote:
Might even slow down the torrent of Wikipedia if strictly applied.

I became aware of your disdain for Wikipedia perhaps two years ago when you expressed your disdain on MSN UK. I didn’t care then; I don’t care now.

by oftenwrong Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:41 pm

The shortcomings of Wikipedia are not a secret. Its USP is that anyone can edit anything.

That makes it a ready jumping-off point for research but severely limits the academic value of any particular entry. Without an assay mark of some kind, an item could be priceless or valueless.

So there seems little point in reproducing screeds of text which may prove to be unreliable.

by Guest Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:34 am

oftenwrong wrote:
The shortcomings of Wikipedia are not a secret.

The “longcomings” of Wikipedia are an open secret. Due to intense peer review by interested parties and increasingly rigid citation protocols, Wikipedia has become a reliable source in itself and an excellent source of other sources.

oftenwrong wrote:
That makes it a ready jumping-off point for research but severely limits the academic value of any particular entry.

Incorrect. In fact, amongst more than fifty sources that I’ve personally checked both on and off the Internet, Wikipedia is the only source that “tells the real story” of a 1969 double murder on the campus of a major US university of which I know the details via eyewitness testimony. Every other source contains erroneous information.

oftenwrong wrote:
Without an assay mark of some kind, an item could be priceless or valueless.

And so, in 1969, the history professor at the third or fourth highest ranked undergraduate institution of higher education in the United States, a man with five degrees in history, a bachelor degree from Harvard, a master’s degree from Yale, a master’s degree from Oxford, a Ph.D. from Columbia, and a Ph.D. from Cambridge, told several undergraduate Black students, including me, that there was not enough Black history “extent” (exact word which I’ll never forget) to warrant a Black history course of study, or even one Black history class, but that he would agree to include a Black history unit within one of his already existent classes.

Click here to see Wikipedia’s main entry on this subject, and to discover the breadth and depth of this extensively published professor’s error. Click here to see Wikipedia’s main entry’s citations/references list on this subject. Click here to see Wikipedia’s main entry’s further readings on this subject. Click here to see Wikipedia’s main entry’s primary sources list on this subject.

oftenwrong wrote:
So there seems little point in reproducing screeds of text which may prove to be unreliable.

Your chosen term “screeds” seems straight out of the Mormon “defense manual” used by Temple Mormons to defend Joseph Smith’s and the successor Propjets’ validity. Wikipedia has proven to be rock-solid reliable on many topics, including the aforementioned 1969 double murder. Once again, your disdain of Wikipedia has been known by me since around September-October 2010. I didn’t care then, and I don’t care now.

Furthermore, your disdain for the thread topic and your apparent efforts to derail substantive conversations about the thread topic are also known by me and have been known by me since around December 2010, when you apparently attempted to derail an almost identical thread topic on MSN UK. I didn’t care then, and I don’t care now.

by snowyflake Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:04 am

How now brown OW? Uninformed opinions only serve to prove that ignorance and denial abound on certain topics. It is my hope that others are not as lazy in their thinking and will at least look at the websites and help where they can.

Women and girls are entitled to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that are denied to them in many countries due to cultural and religious reasons. These two websites inform and allow people to be actively involved in helping governments legislate so that women and girls are protected by law.

Nothing changes if you stand by and do nothing.

by Guest Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:31 am

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by RockOnBrother on Wed 3 October 2012 - 17:26

Returning to the thread topic, on 6 July 2012, Ivan, at Snowyflake’s request, posted links to these two charities:

Violence is Not our Culture (VNC): http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/

Equality Now: http://www.equalitynow.org/

Excerpts from both websites will follow shortly.

The Violence Is Not Our Culture Campaign is an initiative of Women Living Under Muslim Laws to eliminate all forms of 'culturally-justified' violence
against women.

http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/
__________________________________________________________________________________________

TUNISIA: Woman Allegedly Raped By Police, Accused of "Indecency"
Source: Al Jazeera

Tunisian civil society is rallying in support of a young woman who was raped by police officers in what they say is part of a broader assault on women's rights by religious conservatives. There is widespread outrage after 27-year-old victim was summoned by the investigating judge on Wednesday to face chargers of "indecency" from the two men accused of raping her, in what many argue is an attempt by the authorities to intimidate her.

Faïza Skandrani, the head of the Equality and Parity organisation, told Al Jazeera that the case was an important one for two reasons: it marked the first time a woman allegedly raped by the police had taken the case to court, and it was the first time the authorities were trying to publicly shame a woman into dropping such charges.

"The investigating judge is turning her from the victim to the accused, to help the police officers get away with it," she said. "I've heard about similar cases in Pakistan, but this is a first in Tunisia. Next they will be charging her with prostitution."

http://www.wluml.org/news/tunisia-woman-allegedly-raped-police-accused-indecency
__________________________________________________________________________________________

INDIA - Acid Attacks Are Living Death For Women, Acid Cheap, Impunity Rampant!
Source: Safe World For Women

They came in the dead of night, broke into her home as she slept and poured a cocktail of acids over her face -- burning her skin, melting her eyelids, nose, mouth and ears, and leaving her partially deaf and almost blind.

Her crime? She had spurned their sexual advances.

Nine years on, Sonali Mukherjee, 27, is appealing to the Indian government for medical support for skin reconstructive surgery as well as tougher penalties on her three assailants, who were released on bail after only three years in prison. Either that, she says, or authorities should give her the right to kill herself. Euthanasia is illegal in India.

"For the last nine years, I am suffering ... living without hope, without future. If I don't have justice or my health, my only way out is to die," she says, sitting on a bed in a sparsely furnished room above a Sikh temple in south Delhi.

"I don't want to live half a life, with half a face."

Sonali's desperate plea highlights the heinous crime of throwing acid on women in India, the lack of support for victims, and lax laws which have allowed attackers to get away with what activists say is the equivalent of murder.

Acid violence - where acid is intentionally thrown to maim, disfigure or blind - occurs in many countries across the world, and is most common in Cambodia, as well as Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and India where deep-rooted patriarchy persists.

Around 1,500 acid attacks are reported globally each year, with 80 percent of them on women, says London-based charity, Acid Survivors Trust International, adding this is a gross under-estimate as most victims are scared to speak out.

http://www.wluml.org/news/india-acid-attacks-are-living-death-women-acid-cheap-impunity-rampant

by oftenwrong Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:49 pm

Add another report, about some 1500 women being turned back from Mecca because they were not accompanied by male relatives on the Haj, as is required by local Law.

There is more than enough injustice in the World to keep RoB and fellow-travellers frothing for years, but no reports of any Westerners actually taking up the cudgels, save from within the safety of their own culture.

Talk, as they say, is cheap.

by boatlady Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:29 pm

Snowyflake, you're so right, nothing changes if we do nothing - what do you think we should do?

by Guest Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:00 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by oftenwrong on Thu 4 Oct 2012 - 14:49

Add another report, about some 1500 women being turned back from Mecca because they were not accompanied by male relatives on the Haj, as is required by local Law.

And add another attempt to derail (a) substantive conversation about the thread topic, and (b) my personal participation in substantive conversation about the thread topic, to the dustbin of your pilgrimage.

oftenwrong wrote:
There is more than enough injustice in the World to keep RoB and fellow-travellers frothing for years…

And there are more than enough injustices occurring in the world right now to keep oftenwrong busy attempting to derail substantive conversations about injustices for decades.

oftenwrong wrote:
… but no reports of any Westerners actually taking up the cudgels, save from within the safety of their own culture.

And there are no reports of oftenwrong taking up any just cause, either on the scene or from within the safety of his own corner of an insignificant isle from whence came giants such William Wilberforce.

oftenwrong wrote:
Talk, as they say, is cheap.

Your talk fits your description of talk.
__________________________________________________________________________________________

The referenced post (4 October 2012 at 14:49) was apparently motivated by the post immediately preceding (4 October 2012 at 8:31), reproduced, slightly edited, below.

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by RockOnBrother on Thu 4 Oct 2012 - 8:31

Violence is Not our Culture (VNC): http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/

Equality Now: http://www.equalitynow.org/

The Violence Is Not Our Culture Campaign is an initiative of Women Living Under Muslim Laws to eliminate all forms of 'culturally-justified' violence
against women.

http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/
__________________________________________________________________________________________

TUNISIA: Woman Allegedly Raped By Police, Accused of "Indecency"
Source: Al Jazeera

Tunisian civil society is rallying in support of a young woman who was raped by police officers in what they say is part of a broader assault on women's rights by religious conservatives. There is widespread outrage after 27-year-old victim was summoned by the investigating judge on Wednesday to face chargers of "indecency" from the two men accused of raping her, in what many argue is an attempt by the authorities to intimidate her.

Faïza Skandrani, the head of the Equality and Parity organisation, told Al Jazeera that the case was an important one for two reasons: it marked the first time a woman allegedly raped by the police had taken the case to court, and it was the first time the authorities were trying to publicly shame a woman into dropping such charges.

"The investigating judge is turning her from the victim to the accused, to help the police officers get away with it," she said. "I've heard about similar cases in Pakistan, but this is a first in Tunisia. Next they will be charging her with prostitution."

http://www.wluml.org/news/tunisia-woman-allegedly-raped-police-accused-indecency
__________________________________________________________________________________________

INDIA - Acid Attacks Are Living Death For Women, Acid Cheap, Impunity Rampant!
Source: Safe World For Women

They came in the dead of night, broke into her home as she slept and poured a cocktail of acids over her face -- burning her skin, melting her eyelids, nose, mouth and ears, and leaving her partially deaf and almost blind.

Her crime? She had spurned their sexual advances.

Nine years on, Sonali Mukherjee, 27, is appealing to the Indian government for medical support for skin reconstructive surgery as well as tougher penalties on her three assailants, who were released on bail after only three years in prison. Either that, she says, or authorities should give her the right to kill herself. Euthanasia is illegal in India.

"For the last nine years, I am suffering ... living without hope, without future. If I don't have justice or my health, my only way out is to die," she says, sitting on a bed in a sparsely furnished room above a Sikh temple in south Delhi.

"I don't want to live half a life, with half a face."

Sonali's desperate plea highlights the heinous crime of throwing acid on women in India, the lack of support for victims, and lax laws which have allowed attackers to get away with what activists say is the equivalent of murder.

Acid violence - where acid is intentionally thrown to maim, disfigure or blind - occurs in many countries across the world, and is most common in Cambodia, as well as Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and India where deep-rooted patriarchy persists.

Around 1,500 acid attacks are reported globally each year, with 80 percent of them on women, says London-based charity, Acid Survivors Trust International, adding this is a gross under-estimate as most victims are scared to speak out.

http://www.wluml.org/news/india-acid-attacks-are-living-death-women-acid-cheap-impunity-rampant

by methought Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:35 pm

Until there are laws in place providing sanctions against wrong-doers the harm-doers will do harm.

How does one influence a government to introduce greater gender equality where the religion dictates inhumanity against women?

There has to be a perceived gain in order to induce change. To my mind the best bargaining tool is the number of people who want to migrate to the West. It often seems that many wish to move here without fully comprehending that it is equality and a meritocracy, at least in principle, that makes for a peaceable cooperation between different cultural groups.

by boatlady Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:18 am

So, methought, are you saying that education and offering political asylum are the things that in your view may help to improve matters?

by Guest Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by RockOnBrother on Thu 4 Oct 2012 - 8:31

Violence is Not our Culture (VNC): http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/

Equality Now: http://www.equalitynow.org/

__________________________________________________________________________________________

Indonesia: End government legitimization of female genital mutilation (FGM)
Action Number: 43.1
Date: 12 Sep 2012

Among girls aged 15-18 in Indonesia, 86-100% have undergone some form of FGM.
*According to a 2003 Population Council study surveying eight sites in six provinces

In November 2010, the Indonesian Ministry of Health passed a regulation [No. 1636/MENKES/PER/XI/2010 regarding “Female Circumcision”] legitimizing the practice of female genital mutilation (FGM) and authorizing medical professionals to perform it. Though this “medicalization” of FGM permits a procedure that is harmful to girls and women and represents a violation of the ethical code governing the professional conduct of nurses, midwives and other health care workers, efforts to overturn the legislation have been unsuccessful; human rights groups on the ground fear an increase in FGM due to this regulation.

http://www.equalitynow.org/take_action/fgm_action431

>> TAKE ACTION NOW!

Please join Equality Now and our partner Kalyanamitra in calling on the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Women Empowerment and Child Protection to live up to their domestic and international obligations by:
• Repealing the 2010 Ministry of Health regulation legitimizing the practice of FGM
• Enacting and implementing comprehensive legislation banning FGM with strong penalties for violators
• Conducting public awareness-raising and education campaigns to change cultural perception and beliefs on FGM and acknowledging FGM as a human rights violation with harmful consequences

Also join us in calling upon the Indonesian Society of Obstetrics & Gynecology, the Indonesian National Nurses Association and the Indonesian Midwives Association to live up to their international obligations as members of the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO), the International Council of Nurses (ICN) and the International Confederation of Midwives (ICM) by:
• Publicly condemning FGM in all its forms and its medicalization
• Ensuring that strong measures are put into place to discipline Association members who practice FGM
• Urging the government to repeal the 2010 regulation, working with them to enact a law banning FGM and promoting a comprehensive strategy and public education against the practice.

Letter to Government Officials [text of letter follows]

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/6208/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=11654

by methought Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:15 pm

So, methought, are you saying that education and offering political asylum are the things that in your view may help to improve matters?

Hi boatlady

I would love to see the imprisoned women of Islam offered asylum and education - yes - and then see if they can change the culture from the inside out. Thinking that there is no other way is the problem in the first place. Realising that the sky doesn't fall if you start to look at the world differently is the first hurdle for so many people - men and women - trapped in a mysogynist culture.

by snowyflake Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:01 am

Hello boatlady and methought. Thank you for looking at this. If you go to either website there are government addresses and emails that you can send your thoughts to with guidelines on what to say and how to say it. There are judges as well who are presiding over current cases (women convicted of adultery and sentenced to stoning or rape victims imprisoned for sexual crimes etc). Islamic women are taking a stand against violence inside their own culture. No one, regardless of culture or religion, should live in fear for their own safety as a matter of course. In spite of what a certain contributor to this thread implies, it is our business and it is neighbourly to help those who want our help.

What you can do in this country is support government initiatives that tackle domestic violence, female genital mutilation and forced marriage.

by oftenwrong Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:56 am

We can all instigate that righteous glow within ourselves which comes from criticising things those awful foreigners get up to, but rarely wonder whether some of our habitual attitudes might be thought offensive in another culture.

To a dispassionate observer it might seem comical how quickly "The West" has changed from almost universal homophobia to the acceptance of Gay orientation to the point of legalising same-sex marriage ceremonies. Less than forty years ago a man could go to prison in Britain for "importuning" a member of the same sex. Policemen hid in the broom cupboards of public lavatories so as to give evidence in Court of such behaviour. WW2 saviour Alan Turing whose cracking of Nazi codes at Bletchley Park saved untold numbers of allied lives, was after the war forced to accept injections of male hormone to "cure" his homosexual tendencies. By the same kind of people who now jump on a bandwagon of filthy foreigners' habits.

The supreme irony must be that a British Court has just denied sanctuary to a Nigerian man, Olalekan Ayelokun who explained how as a practising Gay he would be harshly punished if returned to Nigeria where homosexuality is still a Criminal Act. When he now does get back to Nigeria he'd better hope nobody there knows about his evidence to the UK Border Agency.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

by snowyflake Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:32 pm

If one is observing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, I don't see how that instigates a 'righteous glow' or 'criticises those awful things foreigners get up to'. I am not worried about what foreigners get up to. I am concerned that humans, men and women and children, have the right to a happy and safe life free from fear, abuse, neglect and tyranny. It's an idealistic dream I know but as I have said many times nothing changes if you stand by and do nothing. These two charities support muslim women who want to effect change in their cultures. Why a certain self-righteous do-nothing poster sees this as a problem is beyond me.

Yes, judge not lest ye be judged......hilarious. Smile

by Shirina Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:56 pm

We can all instigate that righteous glow within ourselves which comes from criticising things those awful foreigners get up to

I've been over this before, OW.

The things we criticize are things that no human ANYWHERE wishes to be subjected to. That is the commonality -- our humanity. Whether they are foreign or not, Muslim or not, is irrelevant. Humans are humans no matter where you go, no matter which culture you're enmeshed within. Humans do not like pain, they do not like fear, they do not like confinement, and they do not like injustice, all of which some of these belief systems are guilty of inflicting.

You're essentially comparing cultural idiosyncrasies such as food, music, and dress with whether women like to be tortured, raped, falsely imprisoned, or shunted to third-class citizen status. I don't believe anyone here is criticizing anything these women in those cultures WANT to have happen to them. We are not saying, "No, you can't listen to that music" or "No, you can't dress like that." Those are things women may want to do. But I defy you to find any women, even a Muslim woman, who without duress will tell you that they enjoy the looming threat of being lashed if they're seen in public with non-family males. Show me one who believes she deserves to be thrown in jail for reporting a rape. Go on, I dare you.

but rarely wonder whether some of our habitual attitudes might be thought offensive in another culture.

Oh, believe me, I've thought about it. As someone who has lived among a widely diverse set of cultures, I have been on several "sides" of the issue. And after all of that, I have noticed a pattern. Often times, those "Western" values that offend other cultures the most is how free we are. Yep, cliche, I know, but that's the truth. What I mean by this is -- they don't like the fact that women can run around in short skirts or that we can express our opinions, especially on religion, openly and without "morality police" hauling us away. We don't have young girls burning to death in a fire because the girls didn't evacuate with the proper head covering, our women are allowed to vote, hold jobs, drive cars, and hold positions of authority. Oh, the horror, the absolute terror!

While what we do in the West might be "immoral" in their eyes, what we do in the West is not CRIMINAL ... and that makes all the difference in the world. Many of their laws focus on enforcing religious morality, not actually protecting anyone. They can look at us with disdain if they wish to, but we're not hauling women out to fields and shooting them with lynch mob justice. Ours is a society built upon Rule of Law while many of their societies are built around Rule of Man.

Now let's look at what often happens when we exercise our own culture. When we in the West "criticize" their culture, we sign petitions, we take our redresses to agencies such as Amnesty International. We write letters, we beg, we plead. But what happens when we do something they don't like? They storm embassies and murder ambassadors, they send threats to media organizations like HBO, they threatened to behead teachers who name a teddybear "Muhammad." They blow things up, kidnap civilians and saw their heads off with dull knives, they destroy Hindu and Buddhists temples, murder cartoonists, or stand outside the Danish embassy in London chanting, "Nuke Denmark, nuke the USA. We will invade Denmark and take their women as war booty!" Need I post the video of that? And that occurred right there on the streets of your own capital, not in some far away Middle Eastern city.

See the difference yet?

by oftenwrong Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:03 pm

How likely is it that anyone, anywhere might reach an honest decision to mind their own business? At times it appears as if most of the human race is intent upon playing control games with the rest.

by snowyflake Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:11 pm

Ignoring the plight of other human beings is not an honest decision to mind your own business. It's a coward's position.

by oftenwrong Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:19 pm

Not nosy-parkering then. That's good to know.

In Portsmouth a few years ago, a rioting mob attacked the home of a registered Paediatrician.

(Following reports of a paedophile being sought by Police in the area.)

by snowyflake Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:27 pm

And an Asian woman in London had acid thrown in her face while onlookers did nothing. All minding their own business. That's good to know.

by willingsniper Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:49 pm

Hello Snowy!

by oftenwrong Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:58 pm

snowyflake wrote:And an Asian woman in London had acid thrown in her face while onlookers did nothing. All minding their own business. That's good to know.

Do you know what the official Police advice to the Public is in such circumstances, showyflake?

by snowyflake Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:13 pm

Do you know what the official Police advice to the Public is in such circumstances, showyflake?

Do you know what the moral, ethical, human action is, OW?

I don't think you do.

Don't be so proud of your yellow streak, OW and think you're being prudent.

by snowyflake Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:24 pm

Willing Sniper! Smile

Where ya bin?

by Guest Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:02 am

oftenwrong wrote:
Judge not, lest ye be judged.

It’s interesting when one quotes Jesus’ teaching prior to seeking understanding of the quoted teaching.

by oftenwrong Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:53 pm

snowyflake wrote:
Do you know what the official Police advice to the Public is in such circumstances, showyflake?

Do you know what the moral, ethical, human action is, OW?

I don't think you do.

Don't be so proud of your yellow streak, OW and think you're being prudent.

Don't be so sure of your ground without evidence.

The original muslim-bashing which opened this thread is turning into the plain old familiar men-bashing. Which perhaps is what it has been all along. Quelle surprise!

by Guest Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:49 pm

oftenwrong wrote:
snowyflake wrote:
Do you know what the official Police advice to the Public is in such circumstances, showyflake?
Do you know what the moral, ethical, human action is, OW?

I don't think you do.

Don't be so proud of your yellow streak, OW and think you're being prudent.
Don't be so sure of your ground without evidence.

The evidence provided by Snowyflake is incontestable. See this thread’s initiating post, and its seventh response, both authored by me, directly following my closing comments.

oftenwrong wrote:
The original muslim-bashing which opened this thread…

Erroneous. The initiating post, authored by me, contains no “muslim-bashing” whatsoever. In stark and brutal contrast, the Reuters video and its accompanying print story, also initially posted by me, documents Muslim bashing, the bashing perpetrated upon an innocent Muslim woman as a bestial male life form unworthy of the title “human” pumps nine rounds through the skull and into the brains of that innocent woman as she kneels helplessly on the ground.

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by RockOnBrother on Mon 9 Jul 2012 - 18:49
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t580-female-human-rights-in-moslem-cultures#23184

Taliban publicly execute woman near Kabul to cheers of jubilation from watching men

By Hamid Shalizi and Amie Ferris-Rotman

KABUL – Saturday, 7 July 2012, 7:04 PM BST

KABUL (Reuters) - A man Afghan officials say is a member of the Taliban shot dead a woman accused of adultery in front of a crowd near Kabul, a video obtained by Reuters showed, a sign that the austere Islamist group dictates law even near the Afghan capital.

In the three-minute video, a turban-clad man approaches a woman kneeling in the dirt and shoots her five times at close range with an automatic rifle, to cheers of jubilation from the 150 or so men watching in a village in Parwan province.

"Allah warns us not to get close to adultery because it's the wrong way," another man says as the shooter gets closer to the woman. "It is the order of Allah that she be executed".

… [this public punishment] raised concern about the treatment of Afghan women 11 years into the NATO-led war against Taliban insurgents.

When the unnamed woman, most of her body tightly wrapped in a shawl, fell sideways after being shot several times in the head, the spectators chanted: "Long live the Afghan mujahideen! (Islamist fighters)", a name the Taliban use for themselves.

Full Reuters story: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/07/07/us-afghanistan-taliban-woman-idUKBRE8660C320120707

Video: Taliban publicly execute woman near Kabul
https://www.youtube.com/v/vCV61MYdRj8

That, sir, is Muslim-bashing.

oftenwrong wrote:
… is turning into the plain old familiar men-bashing.

Erroneous. I, sir, am a man, a gentleman, a man appropriately enraged by the knowledge that bestial male life forms stalk, abduct, enslave, torture, brutalize, rape, and exterminate innocent Muslim women still breathe the air of my planet.

1. Initiating post

RockOnBrother wrote:
Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by RockOnBrother on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 17:24
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t580-female-human-rights-in-moslem-cultures#23001

Female human rights in Moslem cultures
Responding here to this “thread” title (in “links”), these two phrases, “female human rights” and “Muslim cultures” are in many instances mutually exclusive.

Context: The most populous “Muslim” nation, Indonesia, in its key document affirms its creation and status as a non-Muslim nation. Perhaps that’s why Indonesia seems not a breeding ground for Islamafascist terrorist murderers.

In stark contrast, “Muslim” nations like Iran and Saudi Arabia intentionally deny unalienable human rights to females. The intentional tolerance of this female-enslaving culture in Western nations, carried out under the guise of “multiculturalism”, sows seeds for the destruction of these nations’ democracies from within. To tolerate evil is to support evil, whether that evil be “secular”, “religious”, or “cultural.”

Snowyflake is “on it”, committed to doing all she knows how to do to break the chains of slavery which allow Muslim women in “Muslim” nations to be raped, tortured, hacked into pieces, executed by hit squads on the streets (a common taliban action), tortured, imprisoned in their own homes and in state-supported prisons, stoned to death, and subjected to other nearly unspeakable and unconscionable acts of state-endorsed violence.

2. Seventh response

RockOnBrother wrote:
Re: Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by RockOnBrother on Fri 6 Jul 2012 - 6:43
https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t580-female-human-rights-in-moslem-cultures#23036
Ivan wrote:
Female human rights in Moslem cultures
by Ivan on Thu 6 Jul 2012 - 16:29

I’m posting these links to two charities at the request of Snowyflake, one of our members:-

Violence is Not our Culture (VNC): http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/

Equality Now: http://www.equalitynow.org/

Both organisations exist to educate people about the human rights of women and girls living in Moslem countries, and to take action against abuses against women and girls in these cultures. This includes writing letters and emails to governments to stop stoning women for sexual 'crimes', female genital mutilation, physical and sexual abuse and rape victims being criminalised.

There is a real campaign by Moslem women to change the culture from inside, and to educate the men and ruling figures in those cultures that women and girls have a meaningful role in life and have value in their own right.

https://cuttingedge2.forumotion.co.uk/t579-female-human-rights-in-moslem-cultures

by snowyflake Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:12 pm

The original muslim-bashing which opened this thread is turning into the plain old familiar men-bashing.

For me to engage in men-bashing, first, you'd have to be a man......

by Sponsored content